What is Predetermined?

[robert derrick]

Well you said before that you didn't.

Again, you would not say you were sinless. Are you know saying you are?

I don't think Paul is claiming to be sinless. Some of the people in his churches were pretty messed up. In comparison, he was a holy man, not a perfect one, which he confirms many times.

Yes, we are blameless because we are in him. Not because we possess any righteousness of our own.
"and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phillppians 3:9


No Paul was admitting to still struggling with sin. I've heard the old claim in holiness churches that this was Paul identifying with unsaved people, but I don't buy it.
The old testament passage doesn't really qualify but let us understand that it's only Christ that gives us a new heart and spirit. The whole of the Old Testament confirms that we can't do it for ourselves. No one ever kept the law but Jesus. So you should understand why only through his righteousness can we be rescued from ourselves.
I'm more a storyteller than a debater, so: I was going to be over by the Dollar General today, and everytime I'm over that way, there's this little voice in my head saying: "Stop and get a Dr. Pepper." It doesn't matter if I need anything at the store or not. Well, what's that about? It's a useless and ultimately harmful desire for something that only brings momentary pleasure. Isn't that the very essence of sin? Well, you say, it's just a soft drink and I agree. But I don't need it, it has no redeeming value, nor does any junk food. What's the difference between these "little" sins that we indulge in and if I was to go out and hire a prostitute? I know, you are thinking: "What a ridiculous comparison!" But is it? I think it's just a matter of degree. Isn't any useless and harmful desire sin? I have no intention of hiring a prostitute, but I'm sure I'll buy a Dr Pepper sometime this week. Most people probably don't even think about their "little" sins. Gluttony, for example, is so acceptable in our society it's not even commented on.
My point isn't to harp on people's little vices and judge them. I'm in the same boat. Sitting here arguing on the computer is ultimately pointless and no doubt sinful when I could be being productive. The point is, none of us have achieved perfect holiness. Thank God that Jesus righteousness covers us because otherwise we would all be doomed.

"1. How do I not believe in 'entire' sanctification. Saints are either sanctified or not."

Well you said before that you didn't.
Quote please.

I may have misspoken, or you misunderstood. I certainly wouldn't say it, because I have no clue what it means to not believe in an 'entire' sanctification.

Again, you would not say you were sinless. Are you know saying you are? I don't think Paul is claiming to be sinless.

Therefore, you agree that living blamelessly with a pure heart is not a claim to sinlessness?

I am showing you how the effort to equate preaching righteous, holy, and blameless living is not preaching 'sinlessness' nor the perfection of the resurrection. The doctrine and exhortation of blamelessness in Christ condemns living in unrepented sins, and is an admonition to remain faithful and steadfast in enduring temptation and overcome sins unto the end.

Yes, we are blameless because we are in him.

Is that because we are doing so in the flesh, or only because we are 'counted' as doing so, though we are doing it not?

Are you agreeing we must live blamelessly even as Paul did so in Christ, to attain the resurrection of the dead as Paul hoped to do?

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ...If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Not because we possess any righteousness of our own.

Of course not.

And so you acknowledge the difference between doing works of our own righteousness by our own faith and will, which pleases not God nor justifies any man in His sight, vs doing the works of His righteousness by His faith according to His will, by which we are justified with Him in the faith?

Many have a concrete wall between either living like the world or being perfect.

Do you now acknowledge the Scriptural place between the two, which is living blamelessly with a pure heart in this life? And is neither continuing in unrepented sins, nor is living in resurrection perfection?

Them who equate blameless living by faith from a pure heart in this life, with the resurrection of perfection, also falsely believe such blamelessness and purity of heart cannot be lived in this life until the resurrection, which will be too late.

Paul was admitting to still struggling with sin. I've heard the old claim in holiness churches that this was Paul identifying with unsaved people, but I don't buy it.

1. Struggling with sin is being defeated by sin, not being an overcomer in the faith against sins.

2. Paul was not identifying with the unbelievers, but was empathizing with the double minded Christians, who need deliverance with purity of heart and defeat of the law of sin in the mind and over the body.

Are you saying you agree that wretched double mindedness is the normal state of all Christians unto death? And there is no such thing as living blamelessly in Him from a pure heart and mind, freed from lust and desire to sin?

We are not speaking of the corrupted mortal body, but of the soul, heart, and mind of them that have been washed clean and live with clean hands unto the Lord.

 

[Renniks]

Are you saying you agree that wretched double mindedness is the normal state of all Christians unto death? And there is no such thing as living blamelessly in Him from a pure heart and mind, freed from lust and desire to sin?

See you are embracing a contradiction. You say we aren't sinless but yet you say we have NO desire to sin. If we had no desire to sin we would be sinless!
You say on one hand that true believers are blameless and then say that those who struggle are believers! You can't have it both ways.
I believe some people come close to losing all desire to sin. If anyone obtained it in this life, I would like to meet them.
You totally ignored my examples of what I call little sins that we all do also.

 

[Renniks]

am showing you how the effort to equate preaching righteous, holy, and blameless living is not preaching 'sinlessness' nor the perfection of the resurrection. The doctrine and exhortation of blamelessness in Christ condemns living in unrepented sins, and is an admonition to remain faithful and steadfast in

Ok but I don't believe we ever repent of every sin because most of them we don't even notice. So God has to be grading on a curve, that is, he is forgiving sins we don't think to confess.

 

[kcnalp]

"What is Predetermined?"
Everything!

 

[Behold]

"What is Predetermined?"
Everything!

Of course that is not true....what you just wrote.

For example.....God has not "predetermined" what you are thinking right now.
He has not "predetermined" what you are going to do next.
Free Will is not "pre-determined".

So, what IS predetermined, is that you will reap what you sow, and you will die one day and if you are not born again, you are this...right now...
John 3:36.

Now, Hyper Calvinist confused "predetermined" with "pre-destined", regarding their cult's teaching that is heresy, that i'll explain.

Their cult teaches that "some are predestined to be saved, and some are not". This is the satanic teaching that is known as the "predestined elect".
So, that theology IS a Lie of the Devil, as the NT does not teach that heresy.
THE NT teaches that the born again are. = "predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ"
That is the PREDETERMINED OUTCOME.....of being born again.

So, how did this Satanic Cult , confuse ""being conformed into the image of Christ"., AS..>"some are chosen for heaven, and some are chosen for hell".

How did they get so confused?
Just ask Satan.


See what happened is...they read this....>"vessels fitted for destruction", and teach that as...>"God choses those to be that'.
And the correct understanding is.......John 3:36.
See, that verse explains the "vessels fitted for destruction"...as the reality that God has a predetermined outcome for all who DIE, Rejecting Christ.

1 Hell
2. White Throne Judgement Revelation 20:11
3. Lake of fire.

If you die, having never been born again, then its predetermined since Hell was created, that you are going there., as you are that vessel fitted for that destruction, as are ALL Christ REJECTORS.

 

[kcnalp]

Of course that is not true....what you just wrote.

For example.....God has not "predetermined" what you are thinking right now.
He has not "predetermined" what you are going to do next.
Free Will is not "pre-determined".

So, what IS predetermined, is that you will reap what you sow, and you will die one day and if you are not born again, you are this...right now...
John 3:36.

Now, Hyper Calvinist confused "predetermined" with "pre-destined", regarding their cult's teaching that is heresy, that i'll explain.

Their cult teaches that "some are predestined to be saved, and some are not". This is the satanic teaching that is known as the "predestined elect".
So, that theology IS a Lie of the Devil, as the NT does not teach that heresy.
THE NT teaches that the born again are. = "predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ"
That is the PREDETERMINED OUTCOME.....of being born again.

So, how did this Satanic Cult , confuse ""being conformed into the image of Christ"., AS..>"some are chosen for heaven, and some are chosen for hell".

How did they get so confused?
Just ask Satan.


See what happened is...they read this....>"vessels fitted for destruction", and teach that as...>"God choses those to be that'.
And the correct understanding is.......John 3:36.
See, that verse explains the "vessels fitted for destruction"...as the reality that God has a predetermined outcome for all who DIE, Rejecting Christ.

1 Hell
2. White Throne Judgement Revelation 20:11
3. Lake of fire.

If you die, having never been born again, then its predetermined since Hell was created, that you are going there., as you are that vessel fitted for that destruction, as are ALL Christ REJECTORS.

Did God create everything and everyone EXACTLY as He chose to do? Of course He did.

 

[PinSeeker]

"What is Predetermined?"
Everything!

Well, God is certainly not surprised by anything. So there's that. But hey, a lot of folks I know do a lot of things I'm not surprised by in the least. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not surprised he/she did that." Does that mean, then, that I predetermined what they would do? Well no, of course not.

Beyond that, to say that God has predetermined everything would be to say, among other things, that God predetermines sin ~ and even to declare God Himself capable of sin, and even brand Him a sinner ~ which is not true at all. He does use all things, even people who sin and their sinfulness, and works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). A good way to think of it is that He uses all things, including the sins of all people, sinlessly.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Behold]

Did God create everything and everyone EXACTLY as He chose to do? Of course He did.

Did Adam choose the apple because God caused Him to do it?
When EVE listened to Satan, and made a decision to take the Apple.........she did 2 things....

1. She LISTENED to the Devil

2. She made a DECISION to disobey God.

So, you are saying that God caused them both to disobey?

Now, do you see your problem, Kcnalp?
To Teach tbat theological insanity, is to accuse God of doing the Devil's work.
Dont do that., and do not follow a cult that would have you accuse God.

 

[robert derrick]

See you are embracing a contradiction. You say we aren't sinless but yet you say we have NO desire to sin. If we had no desire to sin we would be sinless!
You say on one hand that true believers are blameless and then say that those who struggle are believers! You can't have it both ways.
I believe some people come close to losing all desire to sin. If anyone obtained it in this life, I would like to meet them.
You totally ignored my examples of what I call little sins that we all do also.

See you are embracing a contradiction. You say we aren't sinless but yet you say we have NO desire to sin. If we had no desire to sin we would be sinless!

The 'sinlessness' is in soul, heart, and mind, while the sinfulness remains in the mortal body.

Souls cleansed of all unrighteousness in His blood. Hearts pure and purified of lust. Minds of Christ casting out all thought for sin. Hands cleansed from walking after the flesh.

With purity from lust and liberty from the law of sin comes the easy way of Jesus to obey Him in all things, and there is now no condemnation to them made free from the law of sin of the flesh by the law of the Spirit of life:

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

You say on one hand that true believers are blameless and then say that those who struggle are believers!

Elect Christian saints are those living blamelessly according to the commandment to love God with all the heart and keep all His commandments blamelessly.

That is the beginning of every newborn babe in Christ: a new creature with all sins that are past forgiven, with new divine nature, cleansed soul and purified heart, and the high calling of God to be an obedient saint and friend of Jesus, no more to be a sinful enemy of God.

Those who allow lust to once again take root in the heart, and so to once again renew and rebuild unrepented sins in their lives, have then made themselves wretched double minded Christians, who need to purify their hearts as He is pure and cleanse their hands from once again being as sinners of old.

While the double minded Christian abides in unrepented sin, they are in danger of the righteous judgment of God upon all such unrepentant sinners of the world: God shall judge His people, and God is not a respecter of persons.

 

[robert derrick]

See you are embracing a contradiction. You say we aren't sinless but yet you say we have NO desire to sin. If we had no desire to sin we would be sinless!
You say on one hand that true believers are blameless and then say that those who struggle are believers! You can't have it both ways.
I believe some people come close to losing all desire to sin. If anyone obtained it in this life, I would like to meet them.
You totally ignored my examples of what I call little sins that we all do also.

I believe some people come close to losing all desire to sin. If anyone obtained it in this life, I would like to meet them.

Hello. And so now you have your own gauntlet to consider. Would you like to meet such in yourself? Would you like others to me yourself as such?

Why don't you become the elect saint in Christ obeying Him in all things? If you say it is impossible, then you say God is an unjust God and judge, because all His commandments of Scripture are not possible to keep, and the blood of His dear Son and faith of Jesus is not sufficient to do so.

All desire for sin is no more within the heart, mind and soul, but only remaining without in the body of flesh: the ongoing good fight is to then endure temptation unto the end, with great hope of resurrection of the body, where no more sins of the flesh remain to do battle with the heart and mind and soul.

You totally ignored my examples of what I call little sins that we all do also.
1. Define 'little' sin: All sin is unrighteousness and transgression of the law. All sin is ungodly sin.
2. I have repeatedly spoken of unrepented sins: ongoing sins and trespasses unrepented of that God will righteously judge and wound the heads of all who continue therein: the sins that are sinned unto death. (1 John 5)

Ok but I don't believe we ever repent of every sin because most of them we don't even notice.

Then your unbelief is the problem, because Scripture commands it. Quote the Scripture that says to repent of some or most sins, to obey Him in some or most ways, to love Him with some or most of the heart.

You need to first repent of the false belief that there is either double minded Christian sinners that will always continue sinning on this earth, and Christians claiming to 'arrive' with resurrected perfection.

So God has to be grading on a curve, that is, he is forgiving sins we don't think to confess.

1. Sins of ignorance, especially ongoing ignorance, is not in NT Scripture, but only in the OT acknowledgment of God who was working with unwashed and unsaved believers.

If God cannot convict us any and all sins at any time, then we are not born of His Spirit of truth and His sons, but are bastards:

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

This Scripture says that those ongoing 'ignorantly' in ungodliness and unrighteousness are not His sons, because He cannot make their sins known to them and correct them unto repentance at any time: God is either our God at any time, or He becomes only a God some of the time.

2. Remember, we are speaking of unrepented sins, that we know we commit from time to time: we have not ceased sinning them, because we still have lust in the heart to do so. Our hearts are not pure and proven with lust by our remaining unrepented sins.

You are close my friend and fellow believer in Christ, but you must acknowledge the truth first, and be honest with yourself: You say you want to meet them that have no more desire for sin and lust in the heart, and yet are you willing to become such an one yourself, that others may meet you?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Do you want that power of God for yourself? Do you really want to be delivered of the lust that is in your heart? Or do you just talk about it as a 'necessary evil', that Christians must have and 'struggle with' unto death?

Paul was empathizing with wretched double minded Christians, and he may no doubt have wretchedly experienced it for himself as a Christian; however he certainly was not teaching what 'normal Christianity' is throughout this life unto death, with shame of unrepented sin and lust in the heart.

At this time, I have no sin of lust in my heart, nor thought for sin abiding in my, and though I have all the same sins of the world remaining in my sinful flesh, I do not at all allow the devil to fire them back into my soul, but rather like Abraham I chase away the foul birds that come to steal my sacrifice to Christ Jesus: the sins of the devil are DOA at the door when he comes knocking. His fiery dart is quenched at the door, not grounding itself in the heart.

I do not now at this time allow sin to reign over me nor my body, though sin certainly rages in my flesh, and would overcome me with any evil of the world, if I stood down and kept not myself nor my heart, and allowed the wicked one to touch me and take me at his will:

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Remember Job. His friends accused him of sinning a trespass that God was punishing him for in the flesh, which Job refused to acknowledge before them. It was Job who was justified with God in the end, and not the friends.

Job is not just about bodily condition being no proof of inward truth or corruption with God: It was first and foremost about Job being unjustly accused of being a sinner just like everyone else claiming faith in God, and they were offended at his unwillingness to confess himself as such.

 

[quietthinker]

Did God create everything and everyone EXACTLY as He chose to do? Of course He did.

You can only conclude as you do kcnalp if you dismiss the factor of love. God's love makes him vulnerable as is anyone who loves. It means those who love can be exploited. It means Jesus was a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. It means Jesus would rather allow himself to be killed than kill.

This view is an outrage to the natural man subsequently they invent gods who are never emotionally involved with their subjects except for hate.

 

[Behold]

You arent sinless, you literally sin every single day. You are forgiven, not sinless. Jesus paid the fines for your sins.

If 1st Century is Born again, then Her Born Again Spirit is as righteous as God's Holiness.
See, the issue you have is that you are not able to make the distinction between what is Born again, that is "Made Righteous", and you mind and body....which are not born again.

Most religious people and most Christians, dont understand that what is born again is not their mind or body.
Its their SPIRIT that is Joined to God.... by by being born again into God's Spirit BY the Holy Spirit.

See that part? That is what is SAVED.....>Its your born again Spirit..........not your body, as your body is heading to the grave or to a cremation.

So, once you can understand that your SPIRIT is the "saved" part that has become a SON of God......then from this understanding, you then can follow the Light that leads to the understanding/revelation of what it means to be "Made Righteous"... a "new CREATION">...see that? That is you born again Spirit, that is "IN Christ"......"Seated in heavenly places".
This never sins.....as the born again Spirit is "One with God".

A believer, is no longer under the law, so, what use to be sin........so defined by the law, is now just a "work of the Flesh", that is defined by being "under Grace"

See, where there is no law, there is no transgression, and the born again are "not under the law, but under Grace".

 

[robert derrick]

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit." Psalm 32:1-2​

Ah yes. When blessed Christians sin, it is not imputed as sin to them, but is only counted as a sin to unblessed non-Christians.

And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Of course, the truth of God not imputing iniquity to whom no iniquity is found, would never occur to an OSAS crusader, who thinks all their sins are already forgiven before ever being committed, and so they will nevermore have any iniquity to be imputed, though plenty to be committed.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

The righteous are justified by Christ, to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, not the ones found sinners and transgressors of His law.

OSAS however claims the 'right of faith alone', to not be imputed iniquity by God: not because they are seen and found righteous before Him, no not at all, but rather because they say their future iniquities are already forgiven before ever being committed, so that they cannot 'be seen' by God. And so they cannot be seen and counted as sinners, nor can their ongoing sins be imputed and counted as sins:

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

"Lord, he just committed willful sin, shall I write that down in the book. No angel, that one don't count. He's a Christian. Just keep your eyes open on them unbelievers out there..."

OSAS has no sin to be imputed, because OSAS has no sin for God to see, though sins abound unto death.

And where there is no imputing nor seeing of God, then there is nothing there to see: OSAS pulls off the unique trick of sinning aplenty, while yet having no sin.

For where no law is, there is no transgression.

For where no eyes of God are, there is no sin to be seen at all.

OSAS trusts and hopes God is as blind as they like to believe.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Robert derrick you seriously need to learn what OSAS is actually about. You keep talking about it, and the more you do, the more you reveal how little you know about it. OSAS is Biblical.

 

[Behold]

He that has endured until is end will be saved--

Actually Christ has already completed all the "enduring" for the world... John 3:16.
And all who come BELIEVING to this place where Christ endured, for them, God's wrath against sin, "shall be saved".

Salvation is a Gift......its "the gift of Salvation", and this is not a gift if you have to endure to the end to get it.

 

[Behold]

OSAS trusts and hopes God is as blind as they like to believe.

You have the wrong understanding of "OSAS".....as you were taught what it does not mean..

Here is what it means...

"once you are born again, saved by the blood of Jesus, you are always born again, saved by the blood of Jesus".

or this..

"Jesus who saved you with His blood, death, and resurrection as proof He is God in the Flesh risen from the dead, always keeps you saved".


Salvation is completed by Christ, and given by God as "the Gift of Salvation"

If you have it, then your home is with God and Christ.
How do you know?
Its because they live in every born again believer.
This is your proof that you have eternal life.

 

[ScottA]

Ah yes. When blessed Christians sin, it is not imputed as sin to them, but is only counted as a sin to unblessed non-Christians.

And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Of course, the truth of God not imputing iniquity to whom no iniquity is found, would never occur to an OSAS crusader, who thinks all their sins are already forgiven before ever being committed, and so they will nevermore have any iniquity to be imputed, though plenty to be committed.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

The righteous are justified by Christ, to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, not the ones found sinners and transgressors of His law.

OSAS however claims the 'right of faith alone', to not be imputed iniquity by God: not because they are seen and found righteous before Him, no not at all, but rather because they say their future iniquities are already forgiven before ever being committed, so that they cannot 'be seen' by God. And so they cannot be seen and counted as sinners, nor can their ongoing sins be imputed and counted as sins:

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

"Lord, he just committed willful sin, shall I write that down in the book. No angel, that one don't count. He's a Christian. Just keep your eyes open on them unbelievers out there..."

OSAS has no sin to be imputed, because OSAS has no sin for God to see, though sins abound unto death.

And where there is no imputing nor seeing of God, then there is nothing there to see: OSAS pulls off the unique trick of sinning aplenty, while yet having no sin.

For where no law is, there is no transgression.

For where no eyes of God are, there is no sin to be seen at all.

OSAS trusts and hopes God is as blind as they like to believe.

Rant, rant, rant!

 

[Keiw]

Actually Christ has already completed all the "enduring" for the world... John 3:16.
And all who come BELIEVING to this place where Christ endured, for them, God's wrath against sin, "shall be saved".

Salvation is a Gift......its "the gift of Salvation", and this is not a gift if you have to endure to the end to get it.

Matt 7:22-23--these believe as you do--they are wrong. Jesus said one must endure until their end-Matt 10:22--Matt 24:13--says--will be saved. best to believe Jesus.

 

[Renniks]

Matt 7:22-23--these believe as you do--they are wrong. Jesus said one must endure until their end-Matt 10:22--Matt 24:13--says--will be saved. best to believe Jesus.

Are you saved right now or only at some point in the future?
Are we not already seated in the heavenlies?

 

[Keiw]

Are you saved right now or only at some point in the future?
Are we not already seated in the heavenlies?

I am on earth. All living mortals are. Those at Matt 7:22-23 think they are saved as well.