What is the one true Church?
- Thread starter RR144
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Jesus teaches--FEW will find the road that leads off into life. He as well compared these last days to Noahs day( 99.9% minimum mislead) Luke 17:26)--about 99% minimum today.
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
This kind of idiotic post is dangerous because it breeds hatred based on faslehood,
I OPENLY-CHALLENGE to show me the verbiage of a concordance between the Catholic Church and Adolph Hitler that includes the permission to kill Jews and JWs in concentration camps.
If you cannot produce it - then you need to admit that you LIED.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
That was Gods ark. He condemned men bowing to graven images than can do nothing. Catholics bow to a carved image of Jesus behind the pulpit. They kiss a little piece of metal( cross) that can do nothing. Jesus is a king on a throne in heaven, he can do things.
Every Apostle was an Israelite, serving their God-YHWH(Jehovah)
It was to any spiritual teacher-do not call them Father--Why? Because they fathered nothing. God fathered all truth.
Yes God appointed them-- God gets all credit for fathering all truth, the apostles, prophets, teachers fathered 0.
You are not all knowing.
It is not a lie for me to believe the Lords Word and the Lords Doctrine And Reject your word and your doctrine….
So accuse away…What you think, believe and say is irrelevant to me…although it does highlight your long-standing reputation of repetitive foolishness.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The experience of Willow Creek and it's failed pastor reveals why denominations, with the focus on family rather than business modelling, are not defunct institutions, can be successful if run correctly and according to scriptural Imperatives.
I will try to keep it short.
The thing is here is that I am a Jew, as in regards to many idiots I have came across, even tho I said that I am a truly born a gain Christian !
To them they can not see that I am a Christian ? as they and many reject such ? They are idolising Jews totally ! but can not see me ?
For they are idolise the wrong Jews in fact ! Why because they do not know Christ Jesus in fact, for they have another as an Idol ?
For if they were truly born again they could see Jesus is here ! he lives in you and you in him ? = your Saved !
But if one is seeking God ? your not Saved are you ? because one does not know Christ Jesus !
We never said something a stupid as "Judah Christian" before the 1990's as Christian will Suffice ! as we do not need to bring up such as we know the blueprint their of better than any fool Jew. and Jews now are Fools in fact, for they know not in fact, for they are lost !
So why call the Lost in a higher standing ! as in Judah Christian values ? one may say ? but no, It's Christian values and the blue print goes without saying in fact.
So what I am pointing out is a deception ! no one says Judah Christian values unless they are not worthy of Christ Jesus in fact, for they are putting the cart before the horse.
For why would and Christian mention Judah ? for they are behind us, because they lack Grace in fact and they are a curse, as is anyone who is not truly Saved. for they know not Christ Jesus in fact.
Look the first Christians were Jews in fact and then the Goyim came in.
The First Christians were worthy of God and all were Jews, but the Jews who were not worthy were lead astray as you should know all that. As They were the Golden Calf Mob Moloch etc etc not worthy of God at all in fact, if you were to believe Holy Moses ? but such as I am on about are not worthy of Moses in fact ! And that's why you do not put Judah above Christianity because when one does such they are on another path that is bastardising Christianity in fact !
The Jews never knew God and only them Jews that were Jesus Disciples came to know Christ Jesus when he went to Heaven in fact and their is the first Christians right their, born again in fact ! They knew him ! and no one comes to the Father but through is only begotten Son ! That's a fact ! That's the Key ! Religion never Saved anyone's Soul.
Religion does not Save, only Christ Jesus Saves in fact !
Christ Jesus lives in you and you in him, from that point on that you are truly Saved, you need not the 2ed coming because such a one who is Saved can not be saved twice ? No ! it's the others that will be saved at the end of days who survive it. why, because all of the deceptions and delusions will be burnt up, so such is gone, the delusions of such temptations do not hold sway for they will be seen for what they truly all are.
That's how one who is truly born again sees such now. and as such. John 15:5. And you know that Christ Jesus is the Vine and only abide in him only !
Them Jews were cut off because they were lead astray from God for they had been lead by the ones who crept in unawares !
A Christian should not get the Jews mixed up with the so called Jews, as the Bible pointes out in fact.
That not all who say they are Jews are Not ! as does it say, not all Christians are worthy of Christ in fact ! for Jesus said, he never knew them.
Here let Christ Jesus help you.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Show me in scripture where scripture in art form is forbidden. It's not there. You've fallen for an unbiblical doctrine, leftovers from John Calvins' radical iconoclasm. Catholics don't bow to wood or plaster, we bow to who it represents. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
The prohibition on graven images had to do solely with the worship of false gods. This proves you read into scripture what isn't there.
You have reduced "call no man father" into a stupid slogan. Jesus was using hyperbole, a literary device He uses in other places.. He meant no one should elevate rabbis to the level of God. If you honestly think that by calling our priest "father" means he is God, it's because all the anti-Catholic garbage you've swallowed down whole has damaged your brain.
Call No Man Father?
There is a solid basis in the Bible for calling men father, teacher, doctor, or rabbi, rightly understood. Fr. Mitch Pacwa unpacks the Biblical evidence.
So Catholics Worship Statues?
The first commandment says: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before m...
Don't read or listen, Keiw, you might get a headache. The links aren't meant for you, they are meant for people who are sincere in their inquiries. You are just looking for a fight.
Last edited:
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Oh yes, the notorious photo showing Vatican diplomats with Nazis. It's on every hate site on the internet.
Pope Pius XI signed a concord with Germany to secure the rights of Christians in the country, because the Vatican recognized what a threat Hitler and his henchmen were to religious liberty. This was not an endorsement of the Nazi Party or its philosophy (it may be remembered that America also had treaties with Germany before the war broke out). But you don't care about that.
When Hitler went back on the deal and began abrogating the civil rights of Christians, the Vatican responded by issuing the only encyclical ever written in German (Mit Brennender Sorge or "With Burning Anxiety"), concerning the horrors of the National Socialist German state. This encyclical was smuggled into Germany (it would never have been allowed in, had the Nazis known it was coming) and read at all the parishes on the same day.
The Encyclopedia of Catholic History (by Matthew Bunson) notes: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937" (p. 563).
Keiv, how do you explain away the fact that 3,000,000 Catholics, in Poland alone, were exterminated by the Nazis?
Hitler made LUTHERANISM the state religion, but nobody blames Lutherans for being Nazis.
The Nazi's LOVED Martin Luther. He was to them a great German hero who resisted the corrupting influence of non-Germanic outsiders like the Pope and the Southern European non-Aryan masses. Catholicism was to them an effeminate religion. Luther with his boldness and his support of unrestricted force (including rape, torture, mutilation, and execution) by the German Princes against the peasantry was their kind of guy. Luther was also a vituperate anti-Semite and recommended putting Jews to the sword in some of his writings. From a Nazi perspective, what's not to love?
There is a book Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor by Peter F. Wiener that was published during WWII in England which is available free online which speaks about the admiration both Hitler and the Nazis had for Luther. You can read it here:
Martin Luther - Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor by Peter F. Wiener
There is further evidence of the Nazi appropriation of Luther. Consecrated in 1935, the Martin Luther Memorial Church still stands in Berlin. Originally the Church bells and altar contained the swastika, but they were later removed because of post-war law that outlaws swastikas in Germany. Nevertheless, the church still retains many of the Nazi symbols and icons, including a muscular Aryan Jesus, Iron cross chandeliers, statues of Nazi stormtroopers, and a bust of Adolf Hitler. During the 30s, Nazi party members made up two thirds of the church attendance, where they also baptized their children.
The above picture from the church shows Nazi Soldiers and Aryan women surrounding a muscular Aryan Christ.
And above we have Adolph Hitler's likeness carved into the baptismal font. He is holding an SS serivce cap with a death's head emblem on the brim.
And here is a Nazi Luthertag [Luther Day] Commemorative Badge struck for Germany's Martin Luther Day on 10th November 1933. Strictly speaking not a Nazi award but, nevertheless, it was issued after Hitler's rise to power. Broad segments of the Nazi Party participated in Luther Day ceremonies across Germany every year.
Here are some quotations from Nazis about Luther especially highlighting his antipathy for Jews:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm
Luther was openly praised by Hitler in Mein Kampf. He referred to Martin Luther as a great warrior, a true statesmen, and a great reformer, alongside Richard Wagner and Frederick the Great. Here are some statements in this book about the Jews:
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/part1/doc4.html
Keiw has no beef with Lutherans, just Catholics because of the brain damage caused by anti-Catholic hate propaganda.
Last edited:
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Are you trying to justify pre-marital sex because the bible doesn't spell out how to do a wedding ceremony, to your satisfaction?
I'm still waiting for you to prove all your anti-women church father quotes have been incorporated into official Church teaching.
I'm sure radical feminists have a longer list than yours.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them." Exodus 20:4Show me in scripture where scripture in art form is forbidden. It's not there. You've fallen for an unbiblical doctrine, leftovers from John Calvins' radical iconoclasm. Catholics don't bow to wood or plaster, we bow to who it represents. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
The prohibition on graven images had to do solely with the worship of false gods. This proves you read into scripture what isn't there.
You have reduced "call no man father" into a stupid slogan. Jesus was using hyperbole, a literary device He uses in other places.. He meant no one should elevate rabbis to the level of God. If you honestly think that by calling our priest "father" means he is God, it's because all the anti-Catholic garbage you've swallowed down whole has damaged your brain.
Call No Man Father?
There is a solid basis in the Bible for calling men father, teacher, doctor, or rabbi, rightly understood. Fr. Mitch Pacwa unpacks the Biblical evidence.www.catholic.com
So Catholics Worship Statues?
The first commandment says: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before m...
Don't read or listen, Keiw, you might get a headache. The links aren't meant for you, they are meant for people who are sincere in their inquiries. You are just looking for a fight.
"You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 26:1
"23 So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the Lord your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the Lord your God has commanded you. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.25 “When you become the father of children and children’s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God so as to provoke Him to anger,"
Deuteronomy 4:23-25
"8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Deuteronomy 5:8
"Cursed is the man who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination to the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’" Deuteronomy 27:15
The Israelites/Jews took this to mean no likeness of any kind.....no drawings, no engravings, and no images or statues. It did not matter if you were going to worship them or not. They were not to exist so that no one could see them and decide to worship them.
Of course all this became an issue in the Catholic Church for a while....So The Council of Trent noted that “images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honor and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them.” Images were not to be worshipped as idols,
Of course the Protestants see Catholics kneeling before statues, hands folded in prayer and they take exception. There are a few things to consider here depending on your perspective and it is a good example how false beliefs can cause sin.
1. Catholics do not worship any image or stature....it is a matter of focus and representation.
2. Some Christians beliefs mix Jewish beliefs and Christian beliefs so the Mosaic Law forbidding any engraven images has to be explained away. That is usually done by reinterpreting the Mosaic Law. This is an extreme violation of the Mosaic Law and one of the few ways a Christian can sin by violating the Mosaic Law. This is probably one of he reasons Christ warned about mixing Judaism with Christianity....or The Way at the time.
3. Christians will sometimes post what they think are the Ten Commandments on the wall. Which is fine in itself but the intent is sinful. There are 613 Mosaic Laws and to observe ten of them and discard the rest is an extreme violation of the Mosaic Law and a sin that means you violated them all. Beyond that there are inconsistences with the practice....Among other things Christians do not observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. Keep the Sabbath holy.....
4. But on the other hand the early Jewish-Christians which included some of the Apostles did try to juggle both Jewish and Christian beliefs. But Paul came forward saying that the Mosaic Laws do not apply to Christians. There are some basic morals that come foreword into Christianity but one of the things Christ did for us was free us from the burden of the Mosaic Laws.
Of course there are things that offer an opportunity to debate....Yahweh had the Israelites make certain images for religious reasons. But they still were not worshipped.
All and all we have blown the no engraven images away ten ways to Sunday. Pictures, statues, crosses, television...etc
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Good post. All those Bible quotes deal solely with the worship of false gods. Sadly, rabid Calvinoid iconoclasts read into the verses what isn't there. Protestants have statues too, but don't like to admit it.
At the centre of the monument, four 5 metre-tall statues of Calvinism's main proponents are depicted:
- William Farel (1489–1565)
- John Calvin (1509–1564)
- Theodore Beza (1519–1605)
- John Knox (c.1513–1572)
Reformation Wall - Wikipedia
Those statues aren't worshipped, and neither are ours.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as pre-marital sex. If you have sex you are married. After that if you have sex with someone else it is adultery. Unless a Christian is a widow or widower.....they should only have sex with one person in their lifetime.
The union, both in Judaism and Christianity consummates the marriage....This is well understood worldwide....in most countries if you have a wedding ceremony but do not have sex, you can get the marriage annulled. And even in the Catholic Church under some circumstances you can get the marriage annulled.
Wedding ceremonies are a custom that the Bible does not require.
Of course there is the matter of intent. In the Bible Jewish and Christian leaders did not preside over marriages. The customs of the time was that there was an announcement of the couples' intent to form a marriage.....sometimes families gathered....sometimes celebrated and the couple retired to the bridal chamber where the marriage was consummated. But there is nothing to say it was wrong for a couple out in the wilderness to do this on their own. The union forming the marriage.
Intent matters....sexual immorality matters......Adultery.....The Bible defines carousing as a sin....going out on Friday night looking for a lay, whether or not you are successful was a sin from the start. Basically what we call casual sex. Whore mongering....prostitution as being one or using one....orgies and such.
Common sense....respect for yourself and others.....good manners apply. We are not animals that hump at will.
God made all the functions of attraction....love....sex....marriage....procreation....and families....no sin involved.
With all the negative views of sex it sometimes over shadows the significance of sex. Dirty, nasty, and sinful....doing the nasty! The function of sex is procreation and an expression of love that was designed and created by God. Love is the key ingredient and a couple should not make love unless there is love...in love.
In the Old Testament...be fruitful and multiply....or the promise thereof was repeated at every covenant.
And of course by all means....have a wedding....if you have already had sex (which is usually how it happens anyway -
Plan a wonderful wedding....make the day special and celebrate! I love going to weddings!
As far as...
I'm still waiting for you to prove all your anti-women church father quotes have been incorporated into official Church teaching.
We have already talked about this so many times.....the things that the Church Fathers and Doctors believed, the things the Pope directed....the atrocities against women that are too horrible to describe here in detail....The things the Popes have apologized for.
And as far as the beliefs of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church?....Do you know why they called them Fathers and Doctors of the Church? Given those titles by the Church it would be absurd to think that the Church ignored their teachings.
Then you have the apologies to women from the Popes......
Pope John Paul II issued a manifesto on women's rights today, putting himself on the side of equal treatment and apologizing for past ...
July 11, 1995
Pope Francis apologies to women and asks for forgiveness....April 26, 2018
Pope Francis issued a sweeping apology Sunday for the “crimes” of the Catholic Church against women in Ireland...
In 2000, John Paul apologized for the sins of Roman Catholics made in the name of their faith, including abuses during the Inquisition - a crackdown by church officials from the 13th to the 19th centuries, on individuals suspected of being in conflict with church teaching. Catholics accused of being heretics, witches or others considered of dubious faith, including Muslims and Jews who had converted to Catholicism, were among the targets.
The Catholic Church of today is much better with women and children and families....The Church started schools and have special functions for kids. We mentioned my confirmation....that is a big deal for the families.....my parents dressed me all up we went to church and there were other young kids and their parents.....I remember those old time cameras. The Priests and Nuns made it special for all of us.
I usually attend the seasonal celebrations of the Catholics....men, women, and children and all kinds of things going on....
So there are better topics to discuss about the Catholics and the Catholic Church today. Why not ask me to prove all the good things they are doing and the good thing they have done in the world.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
It is a factual post....but the Mosaic law was not just about some walking around and seeing a statue and deciding to worship it....the statue or image should not be there in the first place and was strictly forbidden. But now not forbidden....the Mosaic Laws do not apply to Christians.
Well we have images and statues all over the place. Protestants do not kneel in front of them and pray....that is what freaks Protestants out.
There is nothing wrong with what the Catholics do, they are not worshipping the stature or image....Protestants take it wrong.
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Just as I thought – more denial with ZERO substance.
Why can’t you refute ANY of the verses I provided where addressing MEN as “Father” and “Teacher” is perfectly fine with God.
What about the Bronze Serpent that God commanded Moses to create that would cure the people by gazing upon it?
Can you address the giant STATUES that Solomon placed in the Temple – which pleased God (1 Kings 6:27)??
God’s Commandment is against the WORSHIP of images as IDOLSs – not the MAKING of images.
If it was against ALL images – your driver’s license would be an abomination to God, as would the pictures in your wallet and the framed pictures on your mantle of Aunt Winnie . . .
Finally – Catholics don’t worship ANYBODY or ANYTHING other than God.
Statues, images, crucifixes, etc. are nothing more than worship aids. In other words, Einstein – they are simple reminders of our faith – just like a cross dangling from a Protestant’s neck or outside a Protestant church building or “Fish” (Icthus) on a car bumper.
Once again – you’re talking out of your backside . . .
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I wouldn’t be so quick as to say that Protestants DON’T kneel before graven images.
Just like Catholics - kneeling in prayer in front of an image that is a mere reminder is a FAR CRY from “worshipping” it. . . .
Attachments
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
The Church commissioned some of the greatest works of art from some of the greatest artists in history as a tool to educate the largely ILLITERATE masses.
Until the 19th century – it has been estimated that up to 85% of the general population in Europe was functionally ILLITERATE. It is because of the statues and paintings that were commissioned that the faith of MANY was strengthened.
Visual aids are extremely important for those who cannot read or study Scripture.
Until the 19th century – it has been estimated that up to 85% of the general population in Europe was functionally ILLITERATE. It is because of the statues and paintings that were commissioned that the faith of MANY was strengthened.
Visual aids are extremely important for those who cannot read or study Scripture.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
That is precisely the answer I KNEW you would respond with . . .
How is a Protestant in a cemetery kneeling before a stone cross in prayer ANY different than a Catholic kneeling in front of one in a Church or at home?
I gotta hear this one . . .
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Do you think tombstones or grave marks represent a God to anybody?
Do you think they are worshiping God kneeling at tombstones.....that does not mean they are not praying....
Again it not the same thing....I don't know if it would be the same thing if you put the grave and the markers in a church.
Either way I was not criticizing the Catholics for kneeling in front of the statures....I explained that. I am just saying what it looked like to Protestants.
Similar threads
- Locked
