Then you are calling holy scripture not possible and silly. Faith is the evidence. Faith is the substance. Sadly, you are just unable to understand/perceive it. It's like we receive what has been promised before it all comes to be. Faith is a seed that needs to grow....and everything that is to be brought forth in the future, the fruit, the crop.....is already contained in that little mustard seed.
What is the purpose of Grace?
- Thread starter Episkopos
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I'm just saying EXACTLY what the bible says. Faith IS the evidence and the substance of things not seen but hoped for. Sad for you too that you can't understand it like Epi can't. It just shows how carnal you both are in your thinking......we need the mind of Christ to be able to perceive spiritual truth.....His mind is a spiritual mind.
There is no way to "get along" with those who preach another gospel and reject the basic foundational tenets of the faith. I cannot link arms with such, but it doesn't mean hating anybody though.
It's not hard to see what a saint is in scripture....you have only to look it up and get the sense of it, with God's help. All those who belong to the flock of God, His church, are called saints.....everyone at different stages of growth/maturity.
That's not possible..and its silly . For your scheme to work...any LIE that is believed must then be true. You are saying that the evidence of its truth is that it has been believed. You will need a LOT more logic brainpower than you are applying to your bible phantasms.
The EVIDENCE of a real faith is TRANSLATION into the unseen world of the kingdom FOR REAL. The substance is in the eternal reality...not the mind of the pretender. The substance is a full victory over sin through an intimate walk with the Lord in His power and love.
Jesus did real miracles. He didn't say....now go you blind man and ACT as if you can see. Pretend you see because I healed you. I gave you something ....sight...but without being able to see.
I have to ask you....do you raise the dead this way? Do you go to the morgue and pray for the dead then claim they are raised ...but just not visibly so in reality yet???
How more confused can a person be!? Your overwhelming desire to be the subject you read about in the bible is indeed fulfilled. By being poor naked wretched and blind you prove Jesus' point. You are claiming to have something you don't have. You are a perfect lesson on how to be a Laodicean.
The irony....
Likewise, as a babe in Christ the book changed my spiritual life, a new world opened, I could not stop reading. But as a babe it was hard, I remember the chapter about Romans 6, I did not understand, but reading it again and again till I got it, well a bit.
I found it really hard to read too, but I knew it was important and was God's will that I did, so pushed through the first few chapters, reading bits over and over.
I made an error and it was not 26 years ago but 36. A long time.
It changed my life maybe more than when I first came to Christ which was also life changing. Before that, I was an atheist from my upbringing.
Reading it again,l I am finding things I don't agree with theologically, and I am not a Calvinist or even a protestant now, but no matter, God used it in a powerful way deep in my spirit. It was the basic principle of working our own sanctification that was important.
@ProDeo
I would really like to understand how my theology developed since I read NCL and the difference between yours and mine if you don't mind.
I take it you are still protestant? And you believe in original sin? Well I don't and believe that there is little to back it up scripturally, and anyway, we all fall in early childhood which is what the Eastern Orthodox believe so it is not hugely important here.
The important thing though is how you saw yourself regarding unintentional sin post Nee.
I eventually became aware that there were still sins but I had been delivered from the urge to commit sin, that force inside that was gaining victory at times although I fought against it. That was the bit that Nee dealt with.
I would really like to understand how my theology developed since I read NCL and the difference between yours and mine if you don't mind.
I take it you are still protestant? And you believe in original sin? Well I don't and believe that there is little to back it up scripturally, and anyway, we all fall in early childhood which is what the Eastern Orthodox believe so it is not hugely important here.
The important thing though is how you saw yourself regarding unintentional sin post Nee.
I eventually became aware that there were still sins but I had been delivered from the urge to commit sin, that force inside that was gaining victory at times although I fought against it. That was the bit that Nee dealt with.
@ProDeo
Actually it does make a difference if you believe in original sin. You will think that it is not possible to change the state you were born into, you can just improve on it. Whereas if you think that man is born innocent like Adam, you will accept that it can be restored (and then go on to perfection). Nee only taught the first step if I remember correctly as did the Keswick movement.
Actually it does make a difference if you believe in original sin. You will think that it is not possible to change the state you were born into, you can just improve on it. Whereas if you think that man is born innocent like Adam, you will accept that it can be restored (and then go on to perfection). Nee only taught the first step if I remember correctly as did the Keswick movement.
Absolutely true your last sentence, victory over many sins if you allow the Holy Spirit to reprogram your conscience in accordance with the written Word.
I will try to say a bit about the issue of original sin in your next post, will be long....
Issue : original sin, sin nature.
Depends who you ask.
Augustine - nagging, pushing, persisting selfish babies who insist the mother's breast.
Paul - Efez 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
David - Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Instead of sin-nature I suggest, born in a fallen state, in need for Christ.
Differences between A&E and us.
1. A&E had a choice, we don't.
2. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment.
3. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing.
4. if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him.
5. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. They knew how it was living in the presence of the Lord and must have cried a million of tears landing on the hostile earth.
6. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or would I after all ?
About Nee, I don't believe he taught sinless perfection, but far going sanctification.
About the so called second blessing, I had mine after watching television, seeing a known artist who had come to Christ after his music performance fully in the Holy Spirit saying -- I would wish that Christ to become everything in your life -- It moved me deeply, wanted that also and I doubled my energy to understand Nee.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
A just outcome? Not grace! A just outcome is for those who have not partook of grace, or else for those who have abused it. But grace brings about holiness. So it is to accomplish GLORY...an eternal glory in holiness.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed (bestowed) on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7
Not by human righteousness (whereby we are judged only by what we did) but by a higher empowering by the Spirit into a higher justification by grace (the power of God) into a higher inheritance (among the saints).
The lower walk of inheritance among the nations is based on OUR righteousness. Being meek, fearing God and doing righteousness.
The inheritance among the saints is based om being empowered by grace from God in the higher walk by the Spirit...to walk as Jesus walked...overcoming as He did.
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev. 21:7
Scripture says, as a man thinks (believes) so is he.....and be it done to you according to your faith. I've seen some miracles (not raising the dead) and consider such things normal for the Lord, when He does them. It is generally in accordance with one's gifts and calling, level of consecration, etc, as the Lord grows/increases our faith........and signs follow the preaching of the gospel.
As usual you have not only taken the verse out of context, but are supporting the wrong argument.
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee. Prov. 23:7
All this means IN CONTEXT is that out of the abundance of the heart a man will act (and speak). You expose here your name and claim agenda concerning what you read in the bible. Is your heart with God? Or is it with yourself and your own agenda? So you may THINK something about God, but His thoughts are far different than you consider.
Faith is not beliefs. And God has to PERSONALLY affirm that your faith is appropriate to the situation. Have you never heard prayers that went unanswered?
You have a philosophy not a faith. Your belief is basically...I think therefore I am. But even here you will not understand the philosophical meaning. The meaning is not I'm whatever I think I am. You are doing what transgender people do, imagining themselves to be something based on the own minds.
But the true philosophical meaning of "I think therefore I am" is more like...I can think therefore I exist. NOT, I think I am so I must be what I think I am.
Truly you are WAYYYY out there in a culty self-affirming indoctrination. People should beware and stay away from your teaching because it is subverted to serve the self. You need to look a LOT closer at what the bible says....without all the self-interest. Make it about God not you. Swear to your own hurt. Not, swear that you are approved of God no matter the evidence to the contrary.
Signs are for unbelievers. And they can be very misleading. The devil does signs too. You seem to have been corrupted through all your experiences obviously without a proper guidance or discipleship....picking and choosing what suited you at the time. And in your selection you may even think it was God's timing that you made the choices you made....whereas they were simply tests you failed along the way that subverted any chance at entering into the truth. God already knows what we will do....but that doesn't mean He approves of your choices just because you chose them.
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Nevertheless, it works both ways. It is God's wisdom and truth. We see it in the natural life too..........if a child grows up thinking he is worthless, he lives according to that belief. The jails are full of those, sadly. Most criminals are fatherless or had abusive fathers. (I'm not saying people are not accountable for their actions, however we see how what one believes affects one's actions.) Likewise, if we believe (genuine faith) that God truly sees us as righteous and having value, it strengthens us to seek to live up to His view of us.
I agree that faith is not the same thing as a belief of the carnal mind. Faith is in spirit, not of the fleshly brain........I almost see faith and spirit as being synonymous, the two go hand in hand....faith is not of our own but is of God's spirit. That scripture is talking about genuine faith and spirit..... According to your faith be it done unto you.
It's interesting that you seem to believe one can only have faith if one has been perfected.....? Just like you wrongly believe the Titus 3:4-7 scripture you posted only applies to those. I can only guess that perhaps this reflects your own experience early on...? Did you not receive the faith to believe in the beginning? And did your life not turn around inside and outwardly? The scriptures are speaking to and about those who have received Christ in actual fact, in spirit and in truth...newborns having been genuinely begotten of His Spirit and then grow from there.
Your assumptions here are so presumptuous and false I'm at a loss for words, wow.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
as a man thinks , beleives so is he .
And now a word .
BELIEVE YE IN CHRIST JESUS and let THE SPIRIT reshape thine mind .
WHO and what DO the sheep heed and follow .
TRUTH . And no lie is of the truth . HERE IS TRUTH . I AM THE WAY , THE TRUTH and THE LIFE
and no man cometh to the FATHER BUT BY ME .
For this cause was i born and for this reason came i into the w o rld
TO TESTIFY of the TRUTH and all who are of the T RUTH hear ME .
They dont twist his words and omit his gospel as do many cloaked in wool
but are only hirelings teaching things for gain , for reward . And these care NOT for the sheep .
They THINK they stand on higher moral ground , and yet have omitted the DIRE NECESSITY
for to believe on HE WHO DOES . making that higher ground of theirs ONLY A SNARE unto their soul .
NO MAN can attain unto the very RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD . JESUS DID for man what no man could do .
And those who are HIS have the SPIRIT and by THAT SPIRIT they can walk righteously , FOR THEY WALK BY FAITH
and the SPIRIT worketh in them the things WELL pleasing to GOD . And Without FAITH there can be NO PLEASING GOD .
For he who cometh to GOD must BELIEVE HE IS
And if one says OH but i do believe GOD IS and yet follows some other god , something that implies a lie
Something that trods under foot say , JESUS CHRIST AND HIS GOSPEL of YE MUST BELIEVE ,
WELL THEN it aint GOD their faith was in at all but in another g od . GOD testified on JESUS , not on our own righteousness
apart from faith . MANY have not submitted UNTO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD
WHO IS JESUS CHRIST and by WHOM those whose faith be in HIM have been made the righteousness of GOD .
Many seem to have faith in ....................WELL IN THEMSELVES and in men , NOT GOD , NOT HIS CHRIST , NOT HIS GOSPEL
and not HIS WORDS .
Isa 7:14-15
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
He will be eating curds and honey (weaned) when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right
I'm not sure exactly what the official doctrine of original sin teaches. But I agree…..we are born/created innocent like Adam and Eve….having not yet eaten of either the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of G&E. But a weaned child begins to become aware and independent of mind/soul enough to choose………..and we all chose wrong....we all chose to sin..."for that all have sinned". (The Lord showed me when I sinned the first time…I was not yet three years old...I would call that my original sin.)
I think what we inherit from Adam and Eve is weak flesh that will die and is naturally prone to sinning (choosing wrong) according to its weak nature…that is why the scripture that @ProDeo posted is true…we were by nature children of wrath, having been born through natural parentage with the same nature that A&E fell into. Death reigning/ruling us. But through faith in Christ when we receive Him we are made into a new creature with a new nature that is able to eat from the Tree of Life and sow to the Spirit.....freed from the dominion of our natural inheritance of weak flesh/sin.
You may need to step back and examine all the steps you took to get to where you now find yourself.
Errors are built on errors until one is so lost that the truth sounds ridiculous to the ear. It begins with small deviations and proceeds to chasms.
The first deviation usually begins with the idea that we get to choose God as our personal Saviour. The truth is the opposite. We do all to be accepted of Christ.
If one believes the first deviation then there is a gradual slide into the modern version of Gnosticism we see here so much. To the extent where people will actually claim to BE the righteousness of God...even as they do evil in the world. Even the devil would blush at that...or at least find a delight in it. Who cares about sin if God can't see them except through them having appropriated for themselves the very attributes of God Himself?The devil said I WILL be like the Most High. I will ascend. But for the modern deviated ones....they don't need to ascend...they are ALREADY THERE! They ARE the righteousness of God. Now the devil just wants to be like those who have appropriated for themselves the attributes of God. OR....he just laughs at the credulity of the religious ambitious self-seekers.
Positional theology is included in the deviations that explains away the heavenly power of God. No need to seek first the kingdom. You already have it within you. Thus negates every teaching of Jesus.
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