What Need I of Grace?

[HARK!]

grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8-9,

Thank you, by grace, through faith. It's YHWH's goodwill that ultimately saves us.

 

[justbyfaith]

I know of no scripture that says that the law that YHWH gave to Moses, the law that Yahshua's entire ministry preached we were to follow, the law that Yahshua set the example of obedience to, unto death, was done away with in a new covenant.

Try Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6; Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19.

Of course, these scriptures only teach that the law no longer has the power to condemn us;

They do not teach that we are not governed by the precepts of the law once we have been taught completely by our schoolmaster.

Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thank you, by grace, through faith. It's YHWH's goodwill that ultimately saves us.

And Romans 5:1-2.

 

[Angelina]

How things are known; and what scripture says are two different things. I know of no scripture that says that the law that YHWH gave to Moses, the law that Yahshua's entire ministry preached we were to follow, the law that Yahshua set the example of obedience to, unto death, was done away with in a new covenant.

In fact, long after that Passover evening, where Yahshua spoke of that covenant, right before he ascended; he continued to speak of his father's law being fulfilled.

(CLV) Lk 24:44
Now He said to them, "These are My words, which I speak to you, still being with you, for all must be fulfilled that is written in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms concerning Me."

Now when a bad tenant is evicted for breaking the contract; the landlord brings in a new tenant, with a new contract. Does the landlord provide a new contract devoid of the terms that he evicted the first tenant for breaking?

You know that the old covenant is a picture of better things to come? A symbol, a representation of the real thing which was Christ Jesus who was the fulfilment of the law? Luke 24:44, Matt 5:17

 

[HARK!]

May I ask, do you believe that Jesus is divine? that he is the Son of God?

I believe that Yahshua is the son of YHWH.

There's nothing mysterious about my answer. I just prefer to use their Hebrew names.

 

[HARK!]

You know that the old covenant is a picture of better things to come? A symbol, a representation of the real thing which was Christ Jesus who was the fulfilment of the law? Luke 24:44, Matt 5:17

When did Yahshua say that all had been fulfilled?

 

[Angelina]

When did Yahshua say that all had been fulfilled?

As per above. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes in him by faith...

 

[bbyrd009]

We are not under the Law of works anymore, but the Law of Faith.
Crimes are still crimes, and all actions are considered to be sin and are abhorrent to God, if they are not derived from love.
But, these specific infractions do not condemn us in the same manner that they did under the Law. If you break one law, you've broken them all. This is not case under the Law of Faith. Eating unclean food in the past, has no bearing on us now. It is no longer a capital crime to break the Sabbath. Stealing does not have the same ramifications as it did under the Old Covenant. We have a mediator and intercessor in Christ, oblations are not required to remedy a sin.
God disdains sin, and no Christian can say that he loves God & Christ, if he continues to sin recklessly and indiscriminately. But when we do, in the way that every well-intending person does, the repercussions do not bear the same weight as they did during the time of the Law.

ah well wadr you have made way too many definitive statements for me to even comment i guess

 

[HARK!]

the end of the law for righteousness

I'm sure that you are aware that Romans is to be read as a letter. The chapter break between 9 and 10 was placed in a poor spot.

That verse refers to this verse, just a few verses back:

31 Yet Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, into a law of righteousness does not outstrip." 32 Wherefore? Seeing that it is not out of faith, but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone, 33 according as it is written: Lo! I am laying in Zion a Stumbling Stone and a Snare Rock, And the one believing on Him shall not be disgraced."

It was never of works. It was always of faith.

We should remember that Paul set the stage for the nature of his message early on in his letter:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Paul might be confusing; but he's not a schizophrenic.

 

[justbyfaith]

hat verse refers to this verse, just a few verses back:

31 Yet Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, into a law of righteousness does not outstrip." 32 Wherefore? Seeing that it is not out of faith, but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone, 33 according as it is written: Lo! I am laying in Zion a Stumbling Stone and a Snare Rock, And the one believing on Him shall not be disgraced."

That is a butchering of that passage!

A better rendering (the kjv):

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I agree that the paragraph begins and ends where I begin and end with this scripture passage.

 

[HARK!]

That is a butchering of that passage!

It is nearly a word for word rendering. Don't you find it disturbing that when you look at a rendering that is closer to the original manuscript; that it looks butchered to you?

That is why I finally abandoned the KJV. I was tired of being deceived by it. Too many subtractions and additions to the manuscripts.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is nearly a word for word rendering. Don't you find it disturbing that when you look at a rendering that is closer to the original manuscript; that it looks butchered to you?

That is why I finally abandoned the KJV. I was tired of being deceived by it. Too many subtractions and additions to the manuscripts.

The subtractions and additions are by other translations than the kjv. The kjv has the perfect rendering in every verse; no subtractions or additions in it.

 

[Angelina]

It is nearly a word for word rendering. Don't you find it disturbing that when you look at a rendering that is closer to the original manuscript; that it looks butchered to you?

That is why I finally abandoned the KJV. I was tired of being deceived by it. Too many subtractions and additions to the manuscripts.

I do not read the KJV but okay. NO I do not mind what rendering of the bible I read however, I have my favorites. I like the 1984 NIV more than most but will check out as many as possible to get the right understanding of what is being portrayed. It is the Spirit of God in me however that brings the ultimate revelation and understanding of scripture....

 

[HARK!]

I do not read the KJV but okay. NO I do not mind what rendering of the bible I read however, I have my favorites. I like the 1984 NIV more than most but will check out as many as possible to get the right understanding of what is being portrayed. It is the Spirit of God in me however that brings the ultimate revelation and understanding of scripture....

When I look at a translation; and a verse doesn't seem to quite line up with the rest of scripture; I'll dig deep to find understanding.

I used to be a KJVO; but it let me down too many times to sustain that mindset.

 

[justbyfaith]

I started with the kjv and someone suggested that I try a different translation. I did; and my walk with Christ went downhill from there. When I later returned to the kjv, my walk with Christ began to look up again.

A simple testimony.

 

[DNB]

1.) It's a literal translation. If there is any question about the translation; I can quickly look at the original language myself.
2.) It somewhat conforms to the CT.
3.) It comes with great tools for free at scripture4all.com. I can quickly look at the Hebrew, the Greek, and get the Strong number.

Thank you very much. I was just curious. I found it very hard to read judging by the quotes that you supplied, so I was interested to hear what compelled you to use it.
Great for you for having a strong handle on the original languages, I'm very envious!

 

[HARK!]

Thank you very much. I was just curious. I found it very hard to read judging by the quotes that you supplied, so I was interested to hear what compelled you to use it.
Great for you for having a strong handle on the original languages, I'm very envious!

I wouldn't say that I have a strong handle on the languages by any means; but the tools are there for anyone to use. Once you start using them; you can't help but learn.


I love the Hebrew language. That is where I invest the vast majority my time to study the languages; but I would still consider myself very weak in Hebrew. My understanding of the Greek is very limited; but again I can find out what I need to know; and every time I do, the next step gets easier.

 

[DNB]

I wouldn't say that I have a strong handle on the languages by any means; but the tools are there for anyone to use. Once you start using them; you can't help but learn.

I love the Hebrew language. That is where I invest the vast majority my time to study the languages; but I would still consider myself very weak in Hebrew. My understanding of the Greek is very limited; but again I can find out what I need to know; and every time I do, the next step gets easier.

That's true, this day and age there are a lot of tools at our disposal, that one does not need to be have a major in Hebrew or Greek anymore to conduct any type of word analysis or textual criticism.
Makes one kind of revere Origen, Jerome Wycliffe, Erasmus and Tyndale that much more (for their scholarship)!

 

[justbyfaith]

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

From this scripture Paul begins down a line of reasoning that leads him to the opposite conclusion in Romans 3:28.

 

[HARK!]

That's true, this day and age there are a lot of tools at our disposal, that one does not need to be have a major in Hebrew or Greek anymore to conduct any type of word analysis or textual criticism.
Makes one kind of revere Origen, Jerome Wycliffe, Erasmus and Tyndale that much more (for their scholarship)!

These are amazing times. I first realized that something was wrong about 20 years before the internet took off. I eagerly sought the truth; but even with public libraries, and a life of ease compared to even 100 years before; it would have taken me several lifetimes of intensive research to bring me to the level that I'm at now. I believe that this generation will be held more accountable, with so many advantages. These are exciting times.