What was the date of the Crucifixion 2?

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The Light

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The church is found all through Rev, being the target of satan's wrath.
No mention of the Church whatsoever. You imagine the seed of the woman Israel is the Church which of course is incorrect. Additionally, we see the Chruch in heaven in Revelation 4 and 5 which of course is before the seals are opened.
 

ewq1938

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No mention of the Church whatsoever. You imagine the seed of the woman Israel is the Church which of course is incorrect.

It's not incorrect. Christians are the church!

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These two churches are part of the two witnesses. That makes them part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The other part of the two witnesses are two olive trees which are also called two prophets. These are Christians who are part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



These are also Christians which are a part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth. They are also sealed before the Great Tribulation begins which means they are not converts during the Great Tribulation which Pre-trib errantly calls "tribulation saints". Not one scripture ever says anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. How could they? You are either marked by the Antichrist and belong to him or you reject the mark and belong to God.


Is Pre-trib correct that the church is not mentioned in the middle chapters of Revelation? No, Pre-trib is wrong.
Is Pre-trib correct that the church is removed before the Great Tribulation begins? No, Pre-trib is wrong.
 
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Timtofly

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The point is there are 24 elders in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened. They have reward crowns. That means Jesus has returned for the Church before the seals are opened as we see the kings and priests in heaven that are redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The seals are the time of Jacobs trouble. As already shown the Church is already in heaven before these events occur.

Not even the slightest of chances this is true. The seals are the time God turns to His second bride, the Chosen Bride. Jacob had two brides. Yet he had to work 7 more years for the chosen bride.


Since we have not seen the beast of the earth going forth conquering and to conquer and we have not seen him confirm the covenant for one week we know the 1st seal is not opened.

The fifth seal is the great tribulation.. You aren't quite getting it. When those seals are opened, the world as you know it will completely change. Those 1st four seals are the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse.


The Church is already in heaven as we can see in Revelation 4 & 5 before the 1st seal is opened.

You aren't even in the ballpark.
The world was changed when the Seals started to open.

You missed it.
 

The Light

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The world was changed when the Seals started to open.

You missed it.
It's not likely that I missed the 7th king going forth conquering and to conquer. Not likely I missed the confirmation of a 7-year covenant. It's a good thing that the 4th horseman of the Apocalypse mentions 1/4 dead or you would not have to stop at the 4th seal.

Try common sense because the understanding of scripture does not seem to be working for you. The seals are not open and will not be opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
 

Timtofly

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It's not likely that I missed the 7th king going forth conquering and to conquer. Not likely I missed the confirmation of a 7-year covenant. It's a good thing that the 4th horseman of the Apocalypse mentions 1/4 dead or you would not have to stop at the 4th seal.

Try common sense because the understanding of scripture does not seem to be working for you. The seals are not open and will not be opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
There is no 7th king in the first Seal. No humans are symbolized in the Seals. You are hallucinating humans.

The first 4 Seals are 4 points using the same theme of horses. The seals are not about the riders of the horses, but about the events that happen on earth as the Seals are opened.

White horse.

Red horse.

Black horse.

Pale horse.

White is the ability to conquer, but not about a person. It was an event. Red was the area of influence. Black was the economic fallout. Pale represents the end result, death. It is hardly a tribulation greater than any other persecution on the church in the last 1900 years.

The fulness of the Gentiles ends at the 6th Seal Second Coming, not a minute prior nor after. And the Second Coming happens like a thief in the night. No one has a time frame or countdown for the 6th Seal.

The 5th Seal is the glorification of the church. No one is killed in the 5th Seal. Not sure why you think that is where the action is placed in that Seal. The putting on of the robe of white is the 5th Seal event. It is about the church. The church is the only people who are glorified at the Second Coming. The 5th and 6th Seal is this:

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

The Church is the fulness of the Gentiles. When the church leaves and is given their robes of white, that is it. The GT will start with the Trumpets and Thunders. That is the final harvest.

When people think the church is gone before the Seals, when Seals 5 and 6 give us Paul's Second Coming, those people have thrown common sense out the window.
 

The Light

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There is no 7th king in the first Seal. No humans are symbolized in the Seals. You are hallucinating humans.
Revelation 6
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

He that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto him and he went forth conquering and to conquer. Sounds like a human.
The first 4 Seals are 4 points using the same theme of horses. The seals are not about the riders of the horses, but about the events that happen on earth as the Seals are opened.

White horse.

Red horse.

Black horse.

Pale horse.

White is the ability to conquer, but not about a person. It was an event. Red was the area of influence. Black was the economic fallout. Pale represents the end result, death. It is hardly a tribulation greater than any other persecution on the church in the last 1900 years.

The fulness of the Gentiles ends at the 6th Seal Second Coming, not a minute prior nor after. And the Second Coming happens like a thief in the night. No one has a time frame or countdown for the 6th Seal.

The 5th Seal is the glorification of the church. No one is killed in the 5th Seal. Not sure why you think that is where the action is placed in that Seal. The putting on of the robe of white is the 5th Seal event. It is about the church. The church is the only people who are glorified at the Second Coming. The 5th and 6th Seal is this:

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

None of this is Biblical. Are you making this stuff up yourself or is this taught somewhere?
The GT will start with the Trumpets and Thunders. That is the final harvest.
The tribulation is OVER before the wrath of God begins. Immediately after the tribulation of those days Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They return to heaven for the marriage supper and the wrath of God begins. ALL SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE.
When people think the church is gone before the Seals, when Seals 5 and 6 give us Paul's Second Coming, those people have thrown common sense out the window.
The pretribulation rapture is around the corner. That is when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and the seals will be opened.
 

ewq1938

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Immediately after the tribulation of those days Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They return to heaven for the marriage supper and the wrath of God begins. ALL SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE.


Mostly but the returning to heaven is not scriptural.
 
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The Light

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It's not incorrect. Christians are the church!

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These two churches are part of the two witnesses. That makes them part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The other part of the two witnesses are two olive trees which are also called two prophets. These are Christians who are part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Not the tired, old candlestick argument. Yeah, the 7 Churches are likened to 7 candlesticks. Does that mean that the 2 witnesses are churches?
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



These are also Christians which are a part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth. They are also sealed before the Great Tribulation begins which means they are not converts during the Great Tribulation which Pre-trib errantly calls "tribulation saints".
The 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. The Church has already been raptured before the seals are opened.
Not one scripture ever says anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. How could they? You are either marked by the Antichrist and belong to him or you reject the mark and belong to God.
Ok. Not one scripture ever says anyone wearing a purple hat converts to Christianity on a blue moon.
Is Pre-trib correct that the church is not mentioned in the middle chapters of Revelation? No, Pre-trib is wrong.
Is Pre-trib correct that the church is removed before the Great Tribulation begins? No, Pre-trib is wrong.
The church is not mentioned. When the pretrib rapture occurs, God turn His attention to His Chosen who will have the testimony of Jesus Christ at that time. Before that, they are blind and cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah, just as the Word says.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 

The Light

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Mostly but the returning to heaven is not scriptural.
Revelation 6
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


Revelation 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
 

ewq1938

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Not the tired, old candlestick argument. Yeah, the 7 Churches are likened to 7 candlesticks. Does that mean that the 2 witnesses are churches?

One witness is two churches.

The church is not mentioned.

Yes it is.

When the pretrib rapture occurs, God turn His attention to His Chosen who will have the testimony of Jesus Christ at that time. Before that, they are blind and cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah, just as the Word says.


Not a word of that comes from the bible. The church enters into the GT, is the target of persecution and death in the GT and those who are alive at the end of the GT will be raptured.
 

ewq1938

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Revelation 6
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


That is a glimpse of the eternity, long after the old Earth and those old events.
 

Timtofly

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Revelation 6
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

He that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto him and he went forth conquering and to conquer. Sounds like a human.

John does not use a man as symbolism. John uses the term beast. Not your man. Not any man. Just symbolism. Death and sheol are not men either, all symbolism.

None of this is Biblical. Are you making this stuff up yourself or is this taught somewhere?

Read the Bible. It is all right there in black and white.

The tribulation is OVER before the wrath of God begins. Immediately after the tribulation of those days Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They return to heaven for the marriage supper and the wrath of God begins. ALL SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE.

I think Revelation is a little more complex and involved than those simple points.

You are not even comprehending that the Seals are covering the church. The Trumpets are the harvest of Israel. The Thunders are the Matthew 13 harvest of the wheat and tares.

Yes, the angels are gathering the harvest. You know that means the angels are not just killing humans in cold blood? They are doing what they always do. They are moving souls out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. The lost are escorted to their eternal destination.

The pretribulation rapture is around the corner. That is when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and the seals will be opened.

Of course the Second Coming and gathering in the 5th and 6th Seal is right around the corner. The Seals have started to open.
 

Grailhunter

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Using the incorrect terms can cause misunderstandings. Did Isaiah post his Hebrew calendar on his refrigerator? Did the Apostles pull out their calendars and consult the Hebrew scriptures to tell people that Christ would return some 2000 years in the future? Or did they believe that they were living in the last days and Christ's return would be soon?

The English word calendar as well as it corresponding words in other modern languages comes from the Latin word calendarium and the Latin is referring to the Julian calendar which was established around 45 BC. When was the Hebrew calendar established? The answer....there was no Hebrew word for calendar. That is why you will not see the word calendar in the scriptures.

The phrase "Hebrew calendar" refers to people in more modern times, using the Hebrew method of time reckoning in an attempt to document or set dates in the scriptures. But you will not find any day/month/year dates in the scriptures.... ...because they did not have calendars nor the concept of calendars. There is no indication that anyone in the Old Testament knew what year it was.....or cared. The Hebrews/Israelites used the lunar phases to designate holy days and the harvest and the sun to designate the seasons.

When the scriptures say that the Israelites were enslaved for 400 years.....did they have calendar's posted on the tents or was it 400 cycles of the seasons? Who was counting? Either way it is more accurate to refer to it as the Hebrew method of tracking the months of any given year by the moon and its phases. There were no calendars no concept even in their minds of calendars.

So any attempt to track prophecies by using the scriptures and the Hebrew method of time keeping is little more than fuzzy logic and fuzzy math. My point is proven in that there is no common agreement on things like the end of time or Christ's return. In the past many have tried to calculate the end of time and Christ's return by using the scriptures and this method and they have failed. Most will remember the Y2K predictions and how many scholars and preachers that rode that bandwagon.

As it is, every generation since the biblical era has believed they were living in the last days.....and they are standing in good company....that is what the Apostles believed.
 
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Keraz

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every generation since the biblical era has believed they were living in the last days.
That Day will come.

In ancient times, the years were usually tracked by the lives of their Kings or Emperors. We are able to relate them to our Gregorian Calendar.
You cannot say any prediction has failed, while there is still time for its fulfilment.
 

Grailhunter

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In ancient times, the years were usually tracked by the lives of their Kings or Emperors.
More correctly, in modern times people try to date the lives and reigns of the Kings. None of this is dated in the scriptures, nor is there any interest shown in it.
You cannot say any prediction has failed, while there is still time for its fulfilment.

I sure can! A number of past predictions have already failed.

On the other hand, the study of the scriptures and prophecy is worthwhile, I am not saying it is not.
But as far as predicting the return of Christ.....honesty and clarity is important. So predictions should be defined as speculation, with some ifs and maybes thrown in there.

But for sure, all Christians should look forward to the return of Yeshua. But I think the plan is for it to be a surprise.
People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. Luke 17:23 Because there are a few scriptures that describe His return as a thief in the night, and Christians are told to be always ready.
 

Davy

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E.W. Bullinger, a 19th century British Bible scholar, has the date of Lord Jesus' birth at 4 B.C. and His crucifixion at 29 A.D. Since he gave an Appendix in The Companion Bible that reveals the dating of begats, all the way back from the man Adam, I tend to agree.
 

Keraz

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There are many precedents for God revealing specific times in advance.

1/ He gave Noah the exact amount of time to build and load the ark, before the Flood.

2/ He told Abraham that the Israelites would be in Egypt for 400 years.

3/ He revealed the exact day of Elijah’s rapture.

4/ Jeremiah prophesied the 70 year time for the Babylonian exile.

5/ Daniel told exactly when the Messiah would come the first time.

6/ Now, Ezekiel 4:4-6, with the multipliers as given in Leviticus 26, gives us the dates for the events of our time. [Israel; 390 X 7 = 2740 years of exile in circa 715 BC, and for Judah 40 X 7X 7 = 1960 years, since 70 AD]

7/ The best indication of the imminence of the end time events, is the exact 2000 year periods - Adam to Abraham, Abraham to Jesus, and now 1992 years since Jesus.

To leave us without clues now would be contrary to God’s established pattern. Obviously we are not “in the dark “, there are many signs. Let us be watchful, doing our Masters work and ready to heed His call and to receive our inheritance.
 
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Grailhunter

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E.W. Bullinger, a 19th century British Bible scholar, has the date of Lord Jesus' birth at 4 B.C. and His crucifixion at 29 A.D. Since he gave an Appendix in The Companion Bible that reveals the dating of begats, all the way back from the man Adam, I tend to agree.
Well 4 BC could be close. Herod died in March 4 BC, so the travels of the Magi, the killing of innocence, and the trip to Egypt by Christ's family has to happen before that, so it is not impossible.....either way it is give or take a few months.
Christ's crucifixion....the Bible indicate that this occurred on the occasion of the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and the Passover being on the same day.....This occurs in 27 AD, 30 AD, 33 AD, 36 AD......30 AD being the most likely.
 

Davy

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Christ's crucifixion....the Bible indicate that this occurred on the occasion of the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and the Passover being on the same day.....This occurs in 27 AD, 30 AD, 33 AD, 36 AD......30 AD being the most likely.
Now that part I cannot agree with.

Christ was crucified on the preparation day per the OT passover sacrifice requirement. This is shown in John 19. The first day of the passover feast began that evening at sunset, and that was to be a holy convocation with no servile work per the OT requirement, so that day that began at sunset served as a "high day", a Sabbath per the feast, and NOT the regular weekly Sabbath. The Friday evening - Saturday Sabbath came later in that week. This put the day of Christ's crucifixion on a Wednesday at evening. And only with this Hebrew reckoning does the 'three days and three nights" Jesus said His body would be in the tomb work out.
 

EclipseEventSigns

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Reading through this thread a lot of electrons were spilled discussing the verse where the jews say it was 46 years since the building of the sanctuary (temple). I'm surprised (actually not) that no one countered with what Josephus says.
Josephus records:
“AND now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God, and make it larger in compass, and to raise it to a most magnificent altitude, as esteeming it to be the most glorious of all his actions...”
“But the temple itself was built by the priests in a year and six months; upon which all the people were full of joy; and presently they returned thanks, in the first place, to God; and in the next place, for the alacrity the king had showed. They feasted and celebrated this rebuilding of the temple: and for the king, he sacrificed three hundred oxen to God, as did the rest every one according to his ability; the number of which sacrifices is not possible to set down, for it cannot be that we should truly relate it; for at the same time with this celebration for the work about the temple fell also the day of the king's inauguration, which he kept of an old custom as a festival, and it now coincided with the other, which coincidence of them both made the festival most illustrious. “
Although the temple complex continued to see construction for many years, the initial phase of the actual temple was completed in a year and a half. Josephus describes the massive celebration that took place when it was complete. And Herod the Great just happened to tie his own inauguration anniversary to the very same day. This is very likely why the general population kept track of the elapsing years since it was such a huge accomplishment and Herod’s annual festival brought it regularly to mind.

Therefore, if the construction announcement took place in Herod’s 18th year, starting from 37 BC, this would have been sometime in 20-19 BC. One and half years later, the initial temple construction was completed. This would have been in 18.5-17.5 BC when the massive celebration took place. Going forward 46 years ends between 28.5 – 29.5 AD. The spring of 29 AD (during Passover) is within this period when the Jews spoke about the ongoing temple renovations for 46 years and this was the first year of the ministry years of the Messiah.