What would you do different?

[shnarkle]

In answer to your question, what would a Christian do if they knew they were made for a vessel of dishonor...myself - I would continue to praise Him, pray to Him and thank Him for all He has done for and given me. I cannot un-believe what I am certain of and that is that, He is God and He is Sovereign. But He is also faithful and He does what He SAID He will do...who can really KNOW Him?

Thanks for that reply. I'm always amazed when someone actually takes the time to actually answer the question. So few people are willing to honestly look at it. Most people just get ticked off. I used to feel almost guilty until I realized that some people just want to be ticked off. It's not coming from me, it's coming from them.

Your reply is essentially the same thing I would do as well. However, even though I know that my life would be better following in Christ's footsteps, I would still be upset knowing that I have no place in the world to come. Knowing I can never enter into the kingdom would be horrific. I don't see how I couldn't be conflicted about it.

 

[Nancy]

Thanks for that reply. I'm always amazed when someone actually takes the time to actually answer the question. So few people are willing to honestly look at it. Most people just get ticked off. I used to feel almost guilty until I realized that some people just want to be ticked off. It's not coming from me, it's coming from them.

Your reply is essentially the same thing I would do as well. However, even though I know that my life would be better following in Christ's footsteps, I would still be upset knowing that I have no place in the world to come. Knowing I can never enter into the kingdom would be horrific. I don't see how I couldn't be conflicted about it.

You're welcome. Unfortunately, many on these forums get easily offended and heated arguments ensue that have NOTHING to do with an OP, lol.
I agree with you that yes, it would be a horrible thing to have to live with that knowledge. Yeah, I'd feel so lost. It's a tough question to answer as, how - after believing we were going to spend eternity with Him only to find out that we were not going to is a crushing thought...I would most def. consider offing myself!

 

[Nancy]

[


Sorry about the oops post. I was working on a response a while ago and chubby fingers are to blame....heeee heee

Hi; I think you know inwardly everything I’m going to say, because He is alive in you.

So yes, God is righteous, just, merciful and all good things, but these are just different aspects of His love. Love is His Nature, He does all things out of love. Whether to life or death, His love rules all. For God is only love, but Divine love is perfect, and it can not be without perfect justice, perfect righteousness and all good and perfect things.

But I think I’m preaching to the choir.

Blessings, in Christ, Not me

Ah, okay...now I see where you are going with this

 

[shnarkle]

You're welcome. Unfortunately, many on these forums get easily offended and heated arguments ensue that have NOTHING to do with an OP, lol.
I agree with you that yes, it would be a horrible thing to have to live with that knowledge. Yeah, I'd feel so lost. It's a tough question to answer as, how - after believing we were going to spend eternity with Him only to find out that we were not going to is a crushing thought...I would most def. consider offing myself!

I'm not sure why that would be a viable solution. I can see how it might end whatever torment this revelation may elicit, but at the same time, I think I would also try to just not think about it as much as possible. After all, there's nothing one can do to work their way into heaven, right? So at least that hasn't changed. In addition to that fact, there are also those who honestly believe that they're eternal reward is assured, but are in no better state than everyone else who is damned. In other words, misery loves company. Sorta like everyone being so testy on this forum; it's really just like a glimpse into hell itself.

We all love to point out that it is up to us to decide what we're going to do with our lives, but by the looks of it, most people willfully choose to engage in trolling, or antagonizing whoever they possibly can on this forum. It's bizarre.

 

[brakelite]

Barring "by the spirit of God", Paul and Christ both point out that one can do all of these things and still be damned.

Please address the question that was actually posted rather than a completely different situation.

It isn't a different situation. You asked a general question, and I assumed you were expecting personal answers from individuals as to what they personally would do if God told them, despite their current course of action, that they were damned and nothing they could do would change that... It was God's purpose for them. So I did answer, and I can only answer from my own individual perspective... God could not say that to me without lying because it is all due to Him that I am able to do... And be... What I am. And that is a new creature. And experience has taught me that He cares, provides, guides, supports, encourages, teaches, and reveals Himself to me in ways totally antagonistic to the concept you envision. Sorry that isn't the answer you were hoping for, but it is what it is.

 

[Nancy]

I'm not sure why that would be a viable solution. I can see how it might end whatever torment this revelation may elicit, but at the same time, I think I would also try to just not think about it as much as possible. After all, there's nothing one can do to work their way into heaven, right? So at least that hasn't changed. In addition to that fact, there are also those who honestly believe that they're eternal reward is assured, but are in no better state than everyone else who is damned. In other words, misery loves company. Sorta like everyone being so testy on this forum; it's really just like a glimpse into hell itself.

We all love to point out that it is up to us to decide what we're going to do with our lives, but by the looks of it, most people willfully choose to engage in trolling, or antagonizing whoever they possibly can on this forum. It's bizarre.

"I think I would also try to just not think about it as much as possible. "
Good luck with that...ha! I do not think I would be able to do that...I would be a big
sniveling crybaby! Yes, The Once Saved Always Saved...which is one of the Calvinistic doctrines. They call it "perseverance of the saints...the "P" in T.U.L.I.P.
Yeah, there are jerks on here yet, I also see jerks on every forum I have ever visited...can't get away from them so...IMHO - put them on ignore...it will bring you more peace. I used to feel bad doing that but, not any more. We are all better off not even engaging that person if it will just bring us down or raise our BP.

 

[GodsGrace]

So Paul has presented a hypothetical situation which I've been pondering for quite some time. I've also asked a number of people what would they do if God himself revealed to them that they were a vessel fitted for destruction, what would they do differently, if anything? Why?

It's a question most Christians simply refuse to answer. They will protest that God would never do something like this. Perhaps, but then that's quite simply not the point. The point is that Paul has presented this scenario for us to ponder, and I'm simply asking that YOU ponder it as well with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind. Paul points out that we needn't question whether or not God is just in doing any of this. Why? Because for Paul and his argument, it's quite simply a Given.

He also plays devil's advocate by asking if one is only carrying out God's will, why would they be to blame? In other words, if one is created to live a sinful life anyways, why is that his fault? Paul's response? Shut up. In other words, Paul is not presenting an argument to justify sin. Most people will deny Paul is even making this argument, but there's really no reason for Paul to point out that God is just in the first place if he weren't making the argument that God predestines people for glory, and the rest aren't.

If it were left up to our own free "will and effort" (vs. 16), then Paul wouldn't need to point out God's righteous judgment, nor the fact that it is by God's promise that his will is acccomplished. God insures his plans are carried out, not us.

So, knowing you're damned to eternal damnation, would you continue to troll poeple on the internet? Would you continue to go to church knowing you're destined for hell? Would you continue to read the bible, or teach your children to study the bible, knowing full well that God's righteous judgment and wrath is upon you?

In your HYPOTHETICAL question (which with God there is no hypothetical BTW)
you ASSUME that some vessels are for destruction.

In case you haven't noticed...destruction means being damned.
Which, you say you did not state in your reply to me. no. 38

I've PONDERED your question and it makes no sense.

I'm answering to YOUR o.p. and it will not be necessary for me to start my own thread.

And anyone answering to a HYPOTHETICAL question is wasting their time.

 

[shnarkle]

It isn't a different situation.

It most certainly is, and I pointed that fact out in your last post. I will do the same here as well.

You asked a general question, and I assumed you were expecting personal answers from individuals as to what they personally would do if God told them, despite their current course of action, that they were damned and nothing they could do would change that... It was God's purpose for them.

Yes, that is correct.

So I did answer, and I can only answer from my own individual perspective... God could not say that...

Here is where you have wandered off onto your own topic rather than address the Given topic. I am not asking you what you think God could or couldn't say or do. I am presenting a situation which Paul presents in Romans 9, and asking you to place yourself into that HYPOTHETICAL situation Paul presented as if this had been revealed to you.

Instead of doing that, you have decided to pretend that God didn't reveal this to you at all, and you have even provided reasons which I couldn't care less about as this has nothing to do with what I posted.

Sorry that your response is irrelavent, but it is what it is.

 

[shnarkle]

In your HYPOTHETICAL question (which with God there is no hypothetical BTW)

There is with Paul, and most would agree that Paul's writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Would you agree with that assessment? Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is God, or at least divine?

you ASSUME that some vessels are for destruction.

In case you haven't noticed...destruction means being damned.

Quite true!

Which, you say you did not state in your reply to me. no. 38

Again, no argument.

I've PONDERED your question and it makes no sense.

I'm answering to YOUR o.p. and it will not be necessary for me to start my own thread.

And anyone answering to a HYPOTHETICAL question is wasting their time.

So why are you admittedly wasting your time with this HYPOTHETICAL?

 

[shnarkle]

"I think I would also try to just not think about it as much as possible. "
Good luck with that...ha! I do not think I would be able to do that...I would be a big
sniveling crybaby! Yes, The Once Saved Always Saved...which is one of the Calvinistic doctrines. They call it "perseverance of the saints...the "P" in T.U.L.I.P.
Yeah, there are jerks on here yet, I also see jerks on every forum I have ever visited...can't get away from them so...IMHO - put them on ignore...it will bring you more peace. I used to feel bad doing that but, not any more. We are all better off not even engaging that person if it will just bring us down or raise our BP.

While there may be jerks on numerous forums, some have considerably more than others. This one has more than all of the forums I belong to combined. Most forums I belong to will not put up with the nonsense i see here for more than a day or two before they're banned. They also have a button that can be clicked to ignore anything anyone posts that you don't want to look at. Where is that button found on this site? I don't see one anywhere.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is with Paul, and most would agree that Paul's writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Would you agree with that assessment? Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is God, or at least divine?



Quite true!



Again, no argument.



So why are you admittedly wasting your time with this HYPOTHETICAL?

I'm not wasting my time because I posted that it's a waste of time.
You know...for others.

 

[GodsGrace]

While there may be jerks on numerous forums, some have considerably more than others. This one has more than all of the forums I belong to combined. Most forums I belong to will not put up with the nonsense i see here for more than a day or two before they're banned. They also have a button that can be clicked to ignore anything anyone posts that you don't want to look at. Where is that button found on this site? I don't see one anywhere.

We here believe that the TOS are being followed and only ADULTS are present.
We like to treat our members like adults...
Not little crybabies that go crying to the mods for justice.
Why do you need an ignore button?
You don't like someone?
Be an adult.
Don't talk to them.

 

[aspen]

So Paul has presented a hypothetical situation which I've been pondering for quite some time. I've also asked a number of people what would they do if God himself revealed to them that they were a vessel fitted for destruction, what would they do differently, if anything? Why?

It's a question most Christians simply refuse to answer. They will protest that God would never do something like this. Perhaps, but then that's quite simply not the point. The point is that Paul has presented this scenario for us to ponder, and I'm simply asking that YOU ponder it as well with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind. Paul points out that we needn't question whether or not God is just in doing any of this. Why? Because for Paul and his argument, it's quite simply a Given.

He also plays devil's advocate by asking if one is only carrying out God's will, why would they be to blame? In other words, if one is created to live a sinful life anyways, why is that his fault? Paul's response? Shut up. In other words, Paul is not presenting an argument to justify sin. Most people will deny Paul is even making this argument, but there's really no reason for Paul to point out that God is just in the first place if he weren't making the argument that God predestines people for glory, and the rest aren't.

If it were left up to our own free "will and effort" (vs. 16), then Paul wouldn't need to point out God's righteous judgment, nor the fact that it is by God's promise that his will is acccomplished. God insures his plans are carried out, not us.

So, knowing you're damned to eternal damnation, would you continue to troll poeple on the internet? Would you continue to go to church knowing you're destined for hell? Would you continue to read the bible, or teach your children to study the bible, knowing full well that God's righteous judgment and wrath is upon you?

It is easy to say yes, but it would be a denial of all the feeling of rage and rejection and fear. I am pretty sure I would not become a hedonist. I pray constantly so I think that would continue out of habit. I would probably continue to study theology, but only in an academic sense - my ability to love would be shattered

 

[charity]

Romans 9:22
So Paul has presented a hypothetical situation which I've been pondering for quite some time. I've also asked a number of people what would they do if God himself revealed to them that they were a vessel fitted for destruction, what would they do differently, if anything? Why?

'Hath not the potter power over the clay,
.. of the same lump
.... to make one vessel unto honour,
...... and another unto dishonour?
What if God,
.. willing to shew His wrath,
.... and to make His power known,
...... endured with much longsuffering
........ the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that He might make known
.. the riches of His glory
.... on the vessels of mercy,
...... which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom He hath called,
.. not of the Jews only,
.... but also of the Gentiles?'
(Romans 9:21-24)

Hello @shnarkle,

Interesting. Thank you for asking - 'What would you do differently?'

If I were an Israelite, as those being referred to in this passage of Romans were: especially a ruler in Israel with the power to influence the people around me, and to lead them to repentance and conversion, thereby to act in obedience to the call of God, through Peter, in Acts 3:19-20. If I knew that if they did not they would be regarded by God as 'a wicked generation', and thereby be the objects of His wrath, along with myself, for rejecting the Lord of glory, as their Messiah, their Saviour, their King? What would I do differently?

Having witnessed the preaching of the Lord Jesus Christ, and been among those who spat upon Him, who defamed Him by the testimony of false witnesses, rejecting Him as both prophet, priest and King, being responsible for His death at the hands of the Romans. Persecuting those who believed on Him, seeking to have them put to death, and constantly interrupting their ministry by attempting to discredit their ministry in the eyes of their hearers. What would I do differently?

I would seek to flee from the wrath of God, and seek His mercy: repent of my unbelief, and receive the Lord of glory, as my Saviour, my country's Messiah and King: and use my influence as a ruler to bring my countrymen to do the same.

* See Deuteronomy 18:15-19

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[shnarkle]

It is easy to say yes, but it would be a denial of all the feeling of rage and rejection and fear. I am pretty sure I would not become a hedonist. I pray constantly so I think that would continue out of habit. I would probably continue to study theology, but only in an academic sense - my ability to love would be shattered

Thanks for responding with such a candid admission. Unlike most people who are asked this question, you aren't inclined to post some knee jerk reaction. I can totally see where you're coming from as well. I hadn't thought about my ability to love though. That's an interesting observation. I guess I thought about it being more as something innate within, but as a vessel fitted for destruction, that might preclude that ability. It does seem to be an effective way to stifle it.

This has prompted another idea which is what if more people became aware that they were vessels fitted for destruction, but they didn't just automatically run out and become hedonists. What if they couldn't resist the urge to fall prostrate before God, and cry out for mercy? I think the psalms are a potent reminder of how much we truly don't deserve God's grace or mercy.

I think most would assume that seeing displays of humility and torment would elicit sympathy from anyone with a heart, but to even ask what others would do in that situation breeds mostly scorn and contempt. Go figure.

Thanks for being that one in a million who can actually look into your heart.

 

[charity]

Hi @shnarkle,

My thoughts go to Paul's testimony in 1 Timothy 1:12-17:-

'And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord,
.. Who hath enabled me,
.... for that He counted me faithful,
...... putting me into the ministry;
Who was before a blasphemer,
.. and a persecutor,
.... and injurious:
but I obtained mercy,
.. because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant
.. with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
This is a faithful saying,
.. and worthy of all acceptation,
.... that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
...... of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy,
.. that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering,
.... for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting.
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God,
be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.'
(1Timothy 1:12-17)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[shnarkle]

'Hath not the potter power over the clay,
.. of the same lump
.... to make one vessel unto honour,
...... and another unto dishonour?
What if God,
.. willing to shew His wrath,
.... and to make His power known,
...... endured with much longsuffering
........ the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that He might make known
.. the riches of His glory
.... on the vessels of mercy,
...... which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom He hath called,
.. not of the Jews only,
.... but also of the Gentiles?'
(Romans 9:21-24)

Hello @shnarkle,

Interesting. Thank you for asking - 'What would you do differently?'

If I were an Israelite, as those being referred to in this passage of Romans were: especially a ruler in Israel with the power to influence the people around me, and to lead them to repentance and conversion, thereby to act in obedience to the call of God, through Peter, in Acts 3:19-20. If I knew that if they did not they would be regarded by God as 'a wicked generation', and thereby be the objects of His wrath, along with myself, for rejecting the Lord of glory, as their Messiah, their Saviour, their King? What would I do differently?

Having witnessed the preaching of the Lord Jesus Christ, and been among those who spat upon Him, who defamed Him by the testimony of false witnesses, rejecting Him as both prophet, priest and King, being responsible for His death at the hands of the Romans. Persecuting those who believed on Him, seeking to have them put to death, and constantly interrupting their ministry by attempting to discredit their ministry in the eyes of their hearers. What would I do differently?

I would seek to flee from the wrath of God, and seek His mercy: repent of my unbelief, and receive the Lord of glory, as my Saviour, my country's Messiah and King: and use my influence as a ruler to bring my countrymen to do the same.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

An interesting response, and one I can relate to. However, I think that vessels fitted for destruction have this tendency to be conflated with vessels of mercy. In another parable, Jesus distinguishes between sheep and wolves. In another he distinguishes between tares and wheat. I'm asking if God revealed to you that you were one of those wolves, or one of those tares; what would you do differently, if anything?

I guess, I'm pointing this out just to make sure you understood the question. If you did understand it, then I guess I can see it as a legitimate response. I know it's something I've done when a loved one dies. I go through that same stage of denial, and just sort of continue living as if nothing had changed.

 

[charity]

An interesting response, and one I can relate to. However, I think that vessels fitted for destruction have this tendency to be conflated with vessels of mercy. In another parable, Jesus distinguishes between sheep and wolves. In another he distinguishes between tares and wheat. I'm asking if God revealed to you that you were one of those wolves, or one of those tares; what would you do differently, if anything?

I guess, I'm pointing this out just to make sure you understood the question. If you did understand it, then I guess I can see it as a legitimate response. I know it's something I've done when a loved one dies. I go through that same stage of denial, and just sort of continue living as if nothing had changed.

Hello @shnarkle,

I did understand your question. However, I responded as I felt I should in the light of the context of the verse you quoted. As for me, I don't know what I would do in those circumstances except cast myself upon God's mercy. Yet, if I could have it in me to do that, I would not be either a 'wolf' or a 'tare' would I? I would be incapable of it, not being made a sheep or wheat!

I have had a further thought in regard to Israel, and the words concerning the Potter: that he had power over the clay, 'of the same lump' to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour. It was the same lump. They were all of Israel (of the same lump): some became part of the believing remnant, the rest of the nation would fail to acknowledge their Saviour, Messiah and King. Yet in the age to come, God will forgive Israel's iniquity and remember it's sins no more, when it ultimately repents and receives the Messiah, as prophesied. That generation saw the destruction of Jerusalem and their temple and were scattered throughout the globe, a loammi people: no longer the people of God; yet that will not always be so, they will be restored, but they will suffer His wrath.

* God is a merciful God, slow to anger and swift to bless.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you so much shnarkle,
for being a blessing to me.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Nancy]

While there may be jerks on numerous forums, some have considerably more than others. This one has more than all of the forums I belong to combined. Most forums I belong to will not put up with the nonsense i see here for more than a day or two before they're banned. They also have a button that can be clicked to ignore anything anyone posts that you don't want to look at. Where is that button found on this site? I don't see one anywhere.

Actually, there is the option to put someone on ignore. Just click on their name, and you will see the option there.

 

[shnarkle]

Hello @shnarkle,

I did understand your question. However, I responded as I felt I should in the light of the context of the verse you quoted. As for me, I don't know what I would do in those circumstances except cast myself upon God's mercy. Yet, if I could have it in me to do that, I would not be either a 'wolf' or a 'tare' would I, I would be incapable of it, being of a different 'ilk.

I have had a further thought in regard to Israel, and the words concerning the Potter: that he had power over the clay, 'of the same lump' to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour. It was the same lump. They were all of Israel (of the same lump): some became part of the believing remnant, the rest of the nation would fail to acknowledge their Saviour, Messiah and King. Yet in the age to come, God will forgive Israel's iniquity and remember it's sins no more, when it ultimately repents and receives the Messiah, as prophesied. That generation saw the destruction of Jerusalem and their temple and were scattered throughout the globe, a loammi people, no longer the people of God. Yet that will not always be so, they will be restored.

God is a merciful God, slow to anger and swift to bless.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you so much shnarkle,
for being a blessing to me.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

There's a certain logic to assume that given that we're all fallen because of Adam's sin, we must all be redeemed through Christ. This is more in line with the parable of the separation of the wheat from the chaff than the tares from the wheat. We die to this world like the husk is discarded that the kernel may grow. If that's the case, then it's really not a matter of eternal damnation in the traditional sense, but one of simply waking up to the reality of Christ alive in the world.

Until we're ready to see that life isn't about us, but rather about Christ, we're condemned to live a life of torment. This is what is within us, and must manifest as torture to everyone around us. When we see that we're intimately connected to Christ so much so that our lives are lost in Christ, then as Augustine once said, we "step into eternity".