What would you do different?

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stunnedbygrace

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I mean, look at the place Jonah went to, (Nineveh I think it was?) God said He was going to destroy it three days hence. God declared it. But God didn't do what He declared He was going to.

So...you have to remove your stipulation, don't you?
 

stunnedbygrace

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im not trying to be argumentative, but you have added a stipulation that takes away repentance as an answer...and my answer to your question would be: I would fall down before Him and plead for Him to show me mercy. So my answer would be that I would repent, yet you say its not an option. But I think you have said wrongly about that.
 
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Stranger

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Understand that (Rom. 9:22-24) is not a hypothetical statement in that it may be true or may not be true. It is a question asked based on the obvious truth Paul stated in (9:18) "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Then Paul gives the illustration of the Potter. (9:21) "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Thus the question in (Rom. 9:22) states the obvious truth found in (9:18). Which makes Paul's statements in (9:22-24) about God, not a hypothetical, but true.

Stranger
 
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Phoneman777

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So Paul has presented a hypothetical situation which I've been pondering for quite some time. I've also asked a number of people what would they do if God himself revealed to them that they were a vessel fitted for destruction, what would they do differently, if anything? Why?

It's a question most Christians simply refuse to answer. They will protest that God would never do something like this. Perhaps, but then that's quite simply not the point. The point is that Paul has presented this scenario for us to ponder, and I'm simply asking that YOU ponder it as well with the added stipulation that God will not repent or change his sovereign mind. Paul points out that we needn't question whether or not God is just in doing any of this. Why? Because for Paul and his argument, it's quite simply a Given.

He also plays devil's advocate by asking if one is only carrying out God's will, why would they be to blame? In other words, if one is created to live a sinful life anyways, why is that his fault? Paul's response? Shut up. In other words, Paul is not presenting an argument to justify sin. Most people will deny Paul is even making this argument, but there's really no reason for Paul to point out that God is just in the first place if he weren't making the argument that God predestines people for glory, and the rest aren't.

If it were left up to our own free "will and effort" (vs. 16), then Paul wouldn't need to point out God's righteous judgment, nor the fact that it is by God's promise that his will is acccomplished. God insures his plans are carried out, not us.

So, knowing you're damned to eternal damnation, would you continue to troll poeple on the internet? Would you continue to go to church knowing you're destined for hell? Would you continue to read the bible, or teach your children to study the bible, knowing full well that God's righteous judgment and wrath is upon you?
So, as a Calvinist, I admit I could never be satisfied with anything less than non-robotic, non-programmed, free-will rendered love and devotion from my spouse...but I interpret Scripture to say God only made robot humans pre-programmed to either render to Him love and devotion or be used as Divine ICBM target practice as a means of putting God's absolute Sovereign Power over the universe on display - for whatever purpose that would serve...

maybe to encourage higher intensity worship by the "elect"...

- but then that would be an admission that the original program needed a bug fix or updated version...

or maybe to inspire a type of "hero-worship" of God like so many athletes or entertainers are worshiped...

- but then why would that be necessary, seeing that the CROSS is the highest expression of God's love for His creatures and power over His adversaries...

Nah, I'm sticking with the Biblically sound interpretation that God never pre-programmed anyone and those He fits for destruction have asked to be configured as such by their own choice to refuse grace.
 
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shnarkle

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So, as a Calvinist, I admit I could never be satisfied with anything less than non-robotic, non-programmed, free-will rendered love and devotion from my spouse...but I interpret Scripture to say God only made robot humans pre-programmed to either render to Him love and devotion or be used as Divine ICBM target practice as a means of putting God's absolute Sovereign Power over the universe on display - for whatever purpose that would serve...

maybe to encourage higher intensity worship by the "elect"...

- but then that would be an admission that the original program needed a bug fix or updated version...

or maybe to inspire a type of "hero-worship" of God like so many athletes or entertainers are worshiped...

- but then why would that be necessary, seeing that the CROSS is the highest expression of God's love for His creatures and power over His adversaries...

Nah, I'm sticking with the Biblically sound interpretation that God never pre-programmed anyone and those He fits for destruction have asked to be configured as such by their own choice to refuse grace.

Well put. I think we tend to overlook the obvious sometimes, but unfortunately the obvious isn't always obvious to those of us who are deceived. We weren't designed to hide from the truth, but when we suspect that the truth may not be what we would like it to be, we instinctively run and hide. We simply can't help it.

Here again, I think this is why Paul's argument is so persuasive. He can see that our will and effort are of no practical use in gaining God's acceptance or approval. God is not pleased by our will or effort to please him because we're not making these attempts to please him with the faith OF Christ which must be given.

Deep down we want to be accepted for who we are as separate individuals, and this just simply doesn't fly with God. With God, we're all one in Christ.

For all practical intents and purposes, there is only Christ. We can pretend that our free will and efforts will make a difference, but apart from Christ we can do nothing.
 
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shnarkle

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im not trying to be argumentative, but you have added a stipulation that takes away repentance as an answer...and my answer to your question would be: I would fall down before Him and plead for Him to show me mercy. So my answer would be that I would repent, yet you say its not an option. But I think you have said wrongly about that.

Good point! This is why it is so important to note that it is God who provides the gift of repentance. We tend to think that we can repent in our fallen state, but this isn't the case. Paul's argument is that the carnal man or carnal mind is enmity against God, and can never please him. That includes an act of repentance. The process of salvation is one of conviction by the Spirit which allows us to see the depths of our depravity. We can then admit, along with Paul, that we are chief among sinners. We can see that at our core we are desperately wicked, and the only hope is to take hold of the gift of repentance when it is offered. There is no reason for God to supply anyone with this gift unless and until he has revealed our own depravity to us first. Too many people simply admit they're not perfect. This isn't a revelation from God.

So I'm not suggesting that it isn't actually an option. I'm suggesting the same hypothetical situation Paul has presented with the only caveat being, what would you do if this was revealed to you?

The problem is one of perspective, and if we are unable to extricate ourselves from this perspective we are damned. This is why I think it is important to honestly ponder this question and ask what we think we would do, or how we would proceed with our lives knowing that there is no hope of eternal life in this fallen state.

So you're right, but you still haven't addressed, or answered the question. To address the question is to get a better idea of what you actually believe.
 

Stranger

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Well put. I think we tend to overlook the obvious sometimes, but unfortunately the obvious isn't always obvious to those of us who are deceived. We weren't designed to hide from the truth, but when we suspect that the truth may not be what we would like it to be, we instinctively run and hide. We simply can't help it.

Here again, I think this is why Paul's argument is so persuasive. He can see that our will and effort are of no practical use in gaining God's acceptance or approval. God is not pleased by our will or effort to please him because we're not making these attempts to please him with the faith OF Christ which must be given.

Deep down we want to be accepted for who we are as separate individuals, and this just simply doesn't fly with God. With God, we're all one in Christ.

For all practical intents and purposes, there is only Christ. We can pretend that our free will and efforts will make a difference, but apart from Christ we can do nothing.

Whose 'we'? You are not Christian.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Good point! This is why it is so important to note that it is God who provides the gift of repentance. We tend to think that we can repent in our fallen state, but this isn't the case. Paul's argument is that the carnal man or carnal mind is enmity against God, and can never please him. That includes an act of repentance. The process of salvation is one of conviction by the Spirit which allows us to see the depths of our depravity. We can then admit, along with Paul, that we are chief among sinners. We can see that at our core we are desperately wicked, and the only hope is to take hold of the gift of repentance when it is offered. There is no reason for God to supply anyone with this gift unless and until he has revealed our own depravity to us first. Too many people simply admit they're not perfect. This isn't a revelation from God.

So I'm not suggesting that it isn't actually an option. I'm suggesting the same hypothetical situation Paul has presented with the only caveat being, what would you do if this was revealed to you?

The problem is one of perspective, and if we are unable to extricate ourselves from this perspective we are damned. This is why I think it is important to honestly ponder this question and ask what we think we would do, or how we would proceed with our lives knowing that there is no hope of eternal life in this fallen state.

So you're right, but you still haven't addressed, or answered the question. To address the question is to get a better idea of what you actually believe.

No, the problem is not of perspective. Your question is non-sense and plays no role on how the believer in Christ proceeds with their life. The truth is the believer in Christ has eternal life. He proceeds with that.

The believer knows what they believe. To address your question is to play a fools game.

Stranger
 

charity

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I'm not really questioning God's means or motives as much as I'm pondering how I approach this reality. When Noah was building the ark, the rest of the world looked on with disdain, contempt, wrath and ridicule. God endured that with longsuffering as well, well over 100 years by my calculations. This didn't preclude him from withholding the fountains of the deep or the subsequent rain for the next forty days.

However, if I'm reading you correctly, this may be pointing out a certain poetic justice which is that God's wrath is produced within those vessels of wrath themselves. They effectively self destruct. They're swept away by their own wrath. Being a vessel of mercy is only due to the mercy we've been given by God. The mercy God supplies is manifested in those vessels, and passed along.

St. Francis points out that it is in forgiving that we're forgiven, but it works the other way as well, in that when we experience forgiveness, we learn how to forgive as well.

Likewise, the wrath we produce, is the wrath that condemns us, and God pours it on because that's what a vessel of wrath wants.
Hello @shnarkle

Interesting. Yet, I don't fully understand I confess. :)

* Why is it that you are being called a 'Troll' by some, shnarkle?
* Why is it being said that you are not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (ie., a Christian):

* If this is not a justifiable description of you, I'm sorry you are being labelled in this way.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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brakelite

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. The question was "what if you were a vessel fitted for destruction?" Do you see the difference? Probably not
Oh, I see it quite clearly. And God often did front up to many people who when confronted, were fit only for destruction. Did they change? Some, yes. They repented, turned away from their wicked lifestyles, received grace and mercy on account of their faith, and were redeemed. Would I? I already did. God confronted me and challenged me... And yes, I changed. But I didn't change me... He changed me the moment I acknowledged my need.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Good point! This is why it is so important to note that it is God who provides the gift of repentance. We tend to think that we can repent in our fallen state, but this isn't the case. Paul's argument is that the carnal man or carnal mind is enmity against God, and can never please him. That includes an act of repentance. The process of salvation is one of conviction by the Spirit which allows us to see the depths of our depravity. We can then admit, along with Paul, that we are chief among sinners. We can see that at our core we are desperately wicked, and the only hope is to take hold of the gift of repentance when it is offered. There is no reason for God to supply anyone with this gift unless and until he has revealed our own depravity to us first. Too many people simply admit they're not perfect. This isn't a revelation from God.

So I'm not suggesting that it isn't actually an option. I'm suggesting the same hypothetical situation Paul has presented with the only caveat being, what would you do if this was revealed to you?

The problem is one of perspective, and if we are unable to extricate ourselves from this perspective we are damned. This is why I think it is important to honestly ponder this question and ask what we think we would do, or how we would proceed with our lives knowing that there is no hope of eternal life in this fallen state.

So you're right, but you still haven't addressed, or answered the question. To address the question is to get a better idea of what you actually believe.

Lol...how did I not answer the question...?

The question was: if God told you that you were a vessel of destruction, what would you do differently?

But then you added that God would never change His mind on that. You will always be a vessel of destruction.

I took that to mean that whether you repent or do not repent is of no matter - He will not change His mind. So I gave my answer despite your saying God would never change His mind.

By the way, I have no problem with the thought that no man can turn to God unless God first draws them. What, exactly, "drawing" entails is another discussion.
 

shnarkle

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Hello @shnarkle

Interesting. Yet, I don't fully understand I confess. :)

* Why is it that you are being called a 'Troll' by some, shnarkle?
* Why is it being said that you are not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (ie., a Christian):

* If this is not a justifiable description of you, I'm sorry you are being labelled in this way.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

A troll is someone who makes inflammatory remarks with the intention of "triggering" people to react. By reacting from emotion rather than a position of self control, the troll is rewarded with all of this attention. The fact that some people are just naturally triggered by a debate question doesn't mean the question is submitted by a troll. It just means that some people need to feel offended. They're looking to be offended.

Likewise, there are people who feel a need to attack anyone who is not a believer. When they can't find anyone who isn't a believer, they fabricate one to attack.

Labels are for those who are incapable of looking at the content.
 
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shnarkle

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Lol...how did I not answer the question...?

The question was: if God told you that you were a vessel of destruction, what would you do differently?

But then you added that God would never change His mind on that. You will always be a vessel of destruction.

I took that to mean that whether you repent or do not repent is of no matter - He will not change His mind. So I gave my answer despite your saying God would never change His mind.

Perhaps I missed it. Would you do anything different, or would you continue to live the say you do now?
 

shnarkle

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Oh, I see it quite clearly. And God often did front up to many people who when confronted, were fit only for destruction. Did they change? Some, yes. They repented, turned away from their wicked lifestyles, received grace and mercy on account of their faith, and were redeemed. Would I? I already did. God confronted me and challenged me... And yes, I changed. But I didn't change me... He changed me the moment I acknowledged my need.

The carnal mind can't acknowledge their need in the first place. The carnal mind can't repent either. That isn't an option. Again, the point is what would you do if this were the case?

I get the impression that people who are afraid to address this issue, have got this fear that by answering it, they are somehow admitting that they're damned. This is not the point, nor does it follow that by addressing this issue, it in anyways puts one's salvation in jeapardy. It's jsut a hypothetical question, one which Paul presents himself. He even asks how it is possible for me to be liable for my actions when God created me to sin? It's a good question, and it isn't one that most seem to believe is coming from those who are trying to justify sin in their lives. That's not Paul's point, and that line of reasoning doesn't fit with his argument to begin with. It fits with my question though, which is why I asked it.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Perhaps I missed it. Would you do anything different, or would you continue to live the say you do now?

Ill try to answer your question with different words then, lol.

To the question: if God revealed to you that you would be destroyed and nothing you did in reaction to that revelation from Him could change it -

My answer is: I would repent anyway and beg Him for mercy, hoping that you were not speaking truthfully about God as regards His never changing His mind. I would say: You had mercy and changed your mind about Nineveh when they repented, and my hope is in You doing this also for me and my hope is that this man spoke wrongly about You that You would never change Your mind.
 

shnarkle

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Ill try to answer your question with different words then, lol.

To the question: if God revealed to you that you would be destroyed and nothing you did in reaction to that revelation from Him could change it -

My answer is: I would repent anyway and beg Him for mercy, hoping that you were not speaking truthfully about God as regards His never changing His mind. I would say: You had mercy and changed your mind about Nineveh when they repented, and my hope is in You doing this also for me and my hope is that this man spoke wrongly about You that You would never change Your mind.

Thanks for answering the question. In a nutshell, it is to simply stick one's head in the sand and pretend one isn't destined to be a vessel fitted for destruction. It's called living the lie, and I think it's paradoxically one of the most honest ways one can answer this question. We hear it all the time with "fake it till you make it". What else can one do, if the only other option is complete loss of hope?
 

stunnedbygrace

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I'm not following that at all. Throwing yourself at the mercy of the court is not sticking your head in the sand...
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I'm not following that at all. Throwing yourself at the mercy of the court is not sticking your head in the sand...

That's like saying, God announced He was going to destroy Nineveh in 3 days and then Nineveh reacted by pretending it wasn't so because they repented, to which God changed His mind...
 

shnarkle

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I'm not following that at all. Throwing yourself at the mercy of the court is not sticking your head in the sand...

It is when they've already passed judgment which is exactly what my OP is pointing out. Christ says the same thing when he points out that those who don't believe are already condemned.

The difference is in the axioms "seeing is believing", and "believe that you might see". One who must rely upon their belief still operates AS IF they believe what they see. The problem is that most people who claim their beliefs don't actually operate as if they've met Christ. In other words, they continue to justify sin in their lives. I've pointed this out before, but it's worth repeating. No one can knowingly sin without coming up with some sort of rationale or justification. This is an abomination according to Christ. It matters not one bit how insignificant it may seem to you at the time, no one who sins can have a clue to the gravity of what they're doing.

That can only come by revelation, and when it does happen, I don't see how one can come up with any rationale for sin ever again.

There's this idea among Christians that grace allows us to sin with impunity. We don't deserve God's grace while we continue to sin, but grace is what conforms us to the image of Christ. Not our will, or efforts to conform, but God's grace through Christ's perfect faith.

No doubt falling on the mercy of the court is the most obvious thing to do, and my scenario is essentially no different than what happens when one is confronted with their own depravity. Perhaps the gift of repentance isn't presented immediately for everyone. How does one live with this existential reality in their lives in the meantime? Perhaps that would be a better way to put it.

For anyone who has experienced extreme and intense grief for an extended period of time, it can be extremely exhausting. At some point one has to somehow pick up the pieces and get on with life as best they can or simply end it all.