What would you do different?

[shnarkle]

God commands men everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to Him.

Yep, and just like the commands programmed into computers by computer programmers they must be carried out. The problem is in not noticing that if you're not carrying them out, you have what a computer programmer would classify as "defective code".

This corresponds to sin in the bible, and the correction is the Mosaic law, but as Paul points out the correct code isn't enough to correct the defect. It must be corrected by the programmer. The corrupted code cannot be corrected by the corrupted code itself.

See the problem yet?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yep, and just like the commands programmed into computers by computer programmers they must be carried out. The problem is in not noticing that if you're not carrying them out, you have what a computer programmer would classify as "defective code".

This corresponds to sin in the bible, and the correction is the Mosaic law, but as Paul points out the correct code isn't enough to correct the defect. It must be corrected by the programmer. The corrupted code cannot be corrected by the corrupted code itself.

See the problem yet?

I think I see what you mean here, but to change your mind and turn from sin and toward God (repent) is what He commands men everywhere to do. I can agree it won't happen unless He first draws a man and also gives Him a gift of faith, (And that faith not of the man himself but a gift) but not sure I agree that repentance is impossible. Even an unbeliever can be sorry for something wrong he has done and turn from it.

 

[shnarkle]

I think I see what you mean here, but to change your mind and turn from sin and toward God (repent) is what He commands men everywhere to do. I can agree it won't happen unless He first draws a man and also gives Him a gift of faith, (And that faith not of the man himself but a gift) but not sure I agree that repentance is impossible. Even an unbeliever can be sorry for something wrong he has done and turn from it.

Quite true, but then this is what Paul is talking about. You can't repent unless you see the gravity of the sin. Those who think they've repented, and then turn right back around and do it all over again have not repented in the first place. When you'd rather die than sin, that's when you can be sure you've repented.

Again, there's all the difference in the world between repenting according to the carnal mind and being given the gift of repentance. The entire Gentile world didn't have that opportunity until it was given to them by God. This is a revelation in itself which Paul and others point out.

Again, until that happens, there simply is no possibility of pardon.

 

[Stranger]

It is when they've already passed judgment which is exactly what my OP is pointing out. Christ says the same thing when he points out that those who don't believe are already condemned.

The difference is in the axioms "seeing is believing", and "believe that you might see". One who must rely upon their belief still operates AS IF they believe what they see. The problem is that most people who claim their beliefs don't actually operate as if they've met Christ. In other words, they continue to justify sin in their lives. I've pointed this out before, but it's worth repeating. No one can knowingly sin without coming up with some sort of rationale or justification. This is an abomination according to Christ. It matters not one bit how insignificant it may seem to you at the time, no one who sins can have a clue to the gravity of what they're doing.

That can only come by revelation, and when it does happen, I don't see how one can come up with any rationale for sin ever again.

There's this idea among Christians that grace allows us to sin with impunity. We don't deserve God's grace while we continue to sin, but grace is what conforms us to the image of Christ. Not our will, or efforts to conform, but God's grace through Christ's perfect faith.

No doubt falling on the mercy of the court is the most obvious thing to do, and my scenario is essentially no different than what happens when one is confronted with their own depravity. Perhaps the gift of repentance isn't presented immediately for everyone. How does one live with this existential reality in their lives in the meantime? Perhaps that would be a better way to put it.

For anyone who has experienced extreme and intense grief for an extended period of time, it can be extremely exhausting. At some point one has to somehow pick up the pieces and get on with life as best they can or simply end it all.

Then if Christ says it, that settles it.

The believer doesn't justify sin. This is just so much bs from a non-believer.

Nothing you say is worth repeating. The believer knows what sin is which is why he has come to Christ.

I don't know any believer who believes we can sin with impunity because we are believers. The believer does experience grace. But it is due to his being a believer in Jesus Christ.

If you are depraved, which no doubt you are, and you don't turn to Jesus Christ in faith, then you remain in your state of depravity.

Everyone experiences grief in their lives. But not everyone turns to Christ as a result. If one does not turn to Christ, then he is not saved.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Quite true, but then this is what Paul is talking about. You can't repent unless you see the gravity of the sin. Those who think they've repented, and then turn right back around and do it all over again have not repented in the first place. When you'd rather die than sin, that's when you can be sure you've repented.

Again, there's all the difference in the world between repenting according to the carnal mind and being given the gift of repentance. The entire Gentile world didn't have that opportunity until it was given to them by God. This is a revelation in itself which Paul and others point out.

Again, until that happens, there simply is no possibility of pardon.

More bs. Those who come to Christ do repent and are granted repentance The entire Gentile world did not seek God or repentance.

The believer is not pardoned. He is declared not guilty.

Stranger

 

[Faither]

Quite true, but then this is what Paul is talking about. You can't repent unless you see the gravity of the sin. Those who think they've repented, and then turn right back around and do it all over again have not repented in the first place. When you'd rather die than sin, that's when you can be sure you've repented.

Again, there's all the difference in the world between repenting according to the carnal mind and being given the gift of repentance. The entire Gentile world didn't have that opportunity until it was given to them by God. This is a revelation in itself which Paul and others point out.

Again, until that happens, there simply is no possibility of pardon.

Repentance simply means to turn. It's a mental turning in our mind from our way to His way.

Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them, repentance is turning into the direction of the caller. It can be done over and over again as long as the Father continues to call. Repentance on it's own does not fulfill NT saving Faith.

 

[shnarkle]

Repentance simply means to turn. It's a mental turning in our mind from our way to His way.

Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them, repentance is turning into the direction of the caller. It can be done over and over again as long as the Father continues to call. Repentance on it's own does not fulfill NT saving Faith.

If I continue to tack from port to starboard, then I 'm not actually tacking at all. I'm just making futile attempts. This is why repentance is a gift rather than what someone does.

When one lusts after their depravity, they are incapable of repentance. When one becomes acutely aware of their depravity and recognizes it for what it truly is, that revelation can only come from God. That gift brings repentance with it.

This is not confined to the mind. The first commandment points to the reality of a complete transformation.

 

[Faither]

If I continue to tack from port to starboard, then I 'm not actually tacking at all. I'm just making futile attempts. This is why repentance is a gift rather than what someone does.

When one lusts after their depravity, they are incapable of repentance. When one becomes acutely aware of their depravity and recognizes it for what it truly is, that revelation can only come from God. That gift brings repentance with it.

This is not confined to the mind. The first commandment points to the reality of a complete transformation.

Ya, not even close.
The gift is the calling to Christ by the Father, not the response to the call.

The reason it's a gift is not everyone is called out.

The Greek is very specific. The Father calls a small group out from among a larger group of those who are not called out. That's the gift! Repentance is just a turning to the caller. No more no less. To much has tried to be attached to repentance.

 

[shnarkle]

Ya, not even close.
The gift is the calling to Christ by the Father, not the response to the call.

The reason it's a gift is not everyone is called out.

The Greek is very specific. The Father calls a small group out from among a larger group of those who are not called out. That's the gift! Repentance is just a turning to the caller. No more no less. To much has tried to be attached to repentance.

It would seem the author of Acts is attaching "give" and "granted" to repentance.

Acts 5:31 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18 18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

[brakelite]

The carnal mind can't acknowledge their need in the first place. The carnal mind can't repent either. That isn't an option.

My acknowledgement of my need as I said in the post, was a response to God confronting me with the revelation of my current state. Of course we can do nothing without Christ... And I wasnt claiming that my repentance and the change that resulted was self induced. Sure, I had a carnal mind... Enshrouded in darkness. But when the holy spirit convicts of sin revelation brings light. So my response to God when He approached me on the state of my standing before Him, was to first, agree with Him that my current state was hopeless, then ask him to make it hopeful. He did.

 

[shnarkle]

My acknowledgement of my need as I said in the post, was a response to God continuing me with the revelation of my current state

Which is simply to answer a question I didn't ask. I asked a HYPOTHETICAL question.
hypothetical


: involving or being based on a suggested idea or theory : being or involving a hypothesis : conjectural hypothetical arguments a hypothetical situation

 

[brakelite]

Which is simply to answer a question I didn't ask. I asked a HYPOTHETICAL question.
hypothetical


: involving or being based on a suggested idea or theory : being or involving a hypothesis : conjectural hypothetical arguments a hypothetical situation

How can I answer a hypothetical question regarding a certain situation when that situation has literally taken place in my life? How could I give an answer that differs from reality?

 

[brakelite]

Which is simply to answer a question I didn't ask. I asked a HYPOTHETICAL question.
hypothetical


: involving or being based on a suggested idea or theory : being or involving a hypothesis : conjectural hypothetical arguments a hypothetical situation

I also edited my initial reply... Continuing should have been confronting.

 

[shnarkle]

How can I answer a hypothetical question regarding a certain situation when that situation has literally taken place in my life? How could I give an answer that differs from reality?

I don't think you know what you just said. You certainly don't mean to say that it has been revealed to you that you are damned without repentance, do you? If you are incapable of addressing and answering a hypothetical question, then why are you even posting on this thread to begin with?

 

[shnarkle]

How could I give an answer that differs from reality?

By honestly addressing the hypothetical question presented. What if I asked you what you would do if you just won the lottery which had reached the incomprehensible total of 500 billion dollars? That is a hypothetical question, is it not? Have you actually won 5000 billion dollars? Can you give an answer that differ from reality in this case, or not? Are going to instead supply a response based upon something else you may have won, perhaps a lottery ticket worth 100 dollars? That's not my question. You're just ignoring what I posted and addressing a question I haven't presented.

 

[amadeus]

im not trying to be argumentative, but you have added a stipulation that takes away repentance as an answer...and my answer to your question would be: I would fall down before Him and plead for Him to show me mercy. So my answer would be that I would repent, yet you say its not an option. But I think you have said wrongly about that.

I believe that repentance, as an option, is one part of God's whole plan [and/or a part of Him] of which He has made us aware. We cannot change God's plan. If we have misunderstood it, our vision of the whole plan can of course be corrected. I believe I am seeing here what you are seeing.

 

[brakelite]

I don't think you know what you just said. You certainly don't mean to say that it has been revealed to you that you are damned without repentance, do you? If you are incapable of addressing and answering a hypothetical question, then why are you even posting on this thread to begin with?

I don't think I need to imagine what I would do if faced with such an ultimatum. Being condemned without hope of reversal, would mean I am still, regardless of confession, profession, sorrow or belief, a sinner, lost and without hope. I would be in the same position as Satan, and I would likely then display my true colours... And the real reason for my rejection. I would hate God and everything He stands for. I would despise His followers, ridicule His teachings, and malign His character. The pretence of righteousness would evaporate in a maelstrom of venomous and malignant loathing.

 

[shnarkle]

I don't think I need to imagine what I would do if faced with such an ultimatum. Being condemned without hope of reversal, would mean I am still, regardless of confession, profession, sorrow or belief, a sinner, lost and without hope. I would be in the same position as Satan, and I would likely then display my true colours... And the real reason for my rejection. I would hate God and everything He stands for. I would despise His followers, ridicule His teachings, and malign His character. The pretence of righteousness would evaporate in a maelstrom of venomous and malignant loathing.

I must say I wasn't expecting this. You have proven that good things do come to those who wait patiently. Thank you for actually addressing and answering the question.

Your response makes sense. It is also right in alignment with what Paul says with regards to the carnal mind which is "enmity against God". We all begin our lives this way. Deep down inside we all hate God. We all want to justify ourselves, and show God and the rest of the world that we're as righteous as the next guy.

I'm not so sure that the pretense of righteousness would evaporate though. I don't see this happening with Satan. You might be right though, I don't really know. I'm not sure this is the case. The bible depicts Satan striving to sit in God's position of authority, and to be God. One might conclude he see his own righteousness, but wants the righteousness of God.

Milton says that the fallen angels don't lose all their virtue, and I would tend to agree. Satan comes transformed as an angel of light according to Paul. However, I do think that what motivates him to retain this pretense of virtue and righteousness is as you say, his malignant loathing etc.

But malignant loathing for which type of Christian? Here's where I wonder if Lucifer's virtue and righteousness may be still a factor in Satan's motivations. I wonder if Satan's loathing isn't directed at hypocritical Christians rather than those who are humble, and God fearing. I don't see the darts of Satan being all that effective at a true Christian. I see his darts hitting their marks on those who are Christians in name only.

What do you think?

 

[brakelite]

But malignant loathing for which type of Christian?

The type of Christian who best reflects Christ, because the more we reflect Christ, the more we prove the dysfunction of Satan's rebellion.
Or I should say, because without Him we can do nothing, the more God Himself is vindicated in the way He has dealt with the rebellion.

 

[shnarkle]

The type of Christian who best reflects Christ, because the more we reflect Christ, the more we prove the dysfunction of Satan's rebellion.
Or I should say, because without Him we can do nothing, the more God Himself is vindicated in the way He has dealt with the rebellion.

I don't see Christ being the object of Satan's malignant loathing though. He see's an opportunity in Christ, but when Christ passes the test, he is banished, and must focus on those who are unable to pass the test, which as it turns out is pretty much everyone else in the world.

In other words, it is only those who are in Christ that can withstand the darts of Satan and they're not all that sharp to begin with. If we look at those Christians who are out spouting nonsense, e.g. Westboro Baptists, etc. then it would appear that they're the ones who are being targeted by Satan, no?

Then there are the innumerable self righteous Christians who can't help but pass judgment on those who neglect to tithe mint or cumin. Satan loves them, doesn't he? He's the Accuser. It seems to me that he's going to love accusing the self righteous hypocrites the most. I don't see Satan getting all that worked up over the humble and contrite heart doing God's will in complete obscurity to the rest of this sinful world.