When did Daniel 7:13-14 happen?

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Jay Ross

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Hebrews 10:12-13
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

So the above verse is in the future?

It’s written in past tense

No what I said was that the scriptures that you provided did not tell us when Daniel 7:13-14 will happen. However, it is possible to determine when Daniel 7:13-14 will happen in our near future. Isaiah 24:21-22 tells us that the wicked fallen heavenly hosts will be judged at the same time as the kings of the earth are Judged at Armageddon and immediately after their judgement they will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days in a pit to await the time of their punishment. Revelation tells us that after we see the three foul frog like spirits do signs and wonders that, all around the earth, people will see performed, then we will know that shortly afterwards, that the kings of the earth and their armies will be gathered at Armageddon to be judged. We also know from Paul in Romans 11:25-26, that when the fulness with respect to time of the Gentiles with respect to the Gentile trampling God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts, i.e. Israel, for 2,300 years, that after the completion of this time period, all of Israel will be saved. We also know from Exodus 20:4-6, that because of Israel's continuous idolatrous practices during the first two ages of their existence from the time that Isaac was born, that the iniquities of Israel's first two ages of the sins of their idolatrous worship will be visited upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth age of the existence of Israel. The four age of the existence of Israel will conclude in our near future when the fourth age of the existence of Israel concludes and God will, once again, begin His interactions with the Nation of Israel.

Jesus, in the lesson of the fig tree verse, i.e. Matt. 24:32, gives the time span from when the fig tree, i.e. Israel, begins to bud new leaves, that the beginning of the season when the harvest starts, can be determined by knowing when the fig tree begins to bud leaves in the early spring and when the Summer Season begins.

It is at this time of the Kings of the earth being gathered at Armageddon, that God will establish His everlasting Kingdom that can never be destroyed and the foundation stone of His Kingdom will come down out of heaven to become the highest mountain, i.e. religion, on all of the earth. It is at this time that we see Daniel 7:13-14 occur, in our near future, probably 20 or so years into our future.

In Rev. 18 we are told that the seven mountains come from the beast that goes into permanent loss as does Satan who momentarily becomes the eight mountain on the sea of humanity. But Rev. 18 is speaking of a time that is still over 1,000 years into our future and beyond our ability to comprehend.

At this time we should be focus on God/Christ and be God's watchers as He does what He has said He will do in our near future.

Shalom
 

Heart2Soul

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Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Some Christians think that this is in our future but I believe that the bible shows us that it happened on the day of Jesus accention and it was the same time as Revelation 12:5-10


5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

Notice that in both sets of verses that Jesus receives His authority and power that shows that they happened at the same time.

Hebrews 10:12-13 confirms the timing of this when Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father when He presented Himself to the Father as our one time sacrificial Lamb.

12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

And when did Jesus say that He would sit at the right hand of the Father?

Matthew 26:63-64
63 But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Yes after His death and resurrection
Interesting study you have done but humbly I think there are too many gaps and holes in the conclusion.
First I want to quote what Jesus said in Revelation...
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
— Revelation 1:8 (KJV)
When did this happen? It was penned by John while on the Isle of Patmos....Jesus appeared to him and told him to write these things to the seven churches of Asia.
My point is Jesus himself made a declaration of who He is...the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end....He who is, who was, and who is to come.
So Jesus made it clear that He has always been here and will continue to be here.
He exists outside of our measured time...the reason He is Omnipotent and Omnipresent is because He saw everything from beginning to end even before He came as the sacrificial Lamb.

Bottom line, IMHO, I believe that Daniel's visions are future when talking about kings and kingdoms that will arise.
In Chapter 8 Gabriel explains who the ram and the goat is....this vision has come and gone BUT there is another rise to power that is happening now with the Islamic regime rising up in power.
 

Truth7t7

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The Reformers accurately recognized the apostasized papacy as antichrist.

That recognition was a central doctrine of the Reformation.

God raised up, inspired, and empowered the Reformers for spiritual battle.

By His grace and mercy, they were successful.

All Protestants are the beneficiaries of that success.

Except those who are deceived and deny it.
The reformers "Inaccurately" identified the Papacy as the Antichrist of Daniel, we disagree

My disagreement on this issue, has absolutely nothing to do with the many good works brought forth by these reformers
 

covenantee

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The reformers "Inaccurately" identified the Papacy as the Antichrist of Daniel, we disagree

My disagreement on this issue, has absolutely nothing to do with the many good works brought forth by these reformers

The Reformers' prophetic wisdom and discernment were inspired by God Himself.

Without them, there would have been no Reformation.

And this forum, and you and I on it, would not exist.
 

Jay Ross

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I'm historicist, but I don't expect you to understand its meaning or significance.

The link below give a fair understanding of the position that you come from.

Historicist interpretations of the Book of Revelation - Wikipedia

Sadly, many times I see that the entity that is behind many of the Biblical Prophecies, is never identified by Preterist or Historicists and as such their deliberations can be discarded to the WPB.

However, where the entity behind the Biblical Prophecies are correctly identified, then I have no problems with what they claim in those circumstances.

Now, the "Kings" and Armies of the Grecian and Roman Empires has been given to the entity that is behind the Daniel 8 prophecy concerning the trampling of God's Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts during the time of the existence of these two empires, but the more recent kings and their respective armies and nations is a little more difficult to identify as we approach the end of the Daniel 8:9-14 prophecy in our near future. In fact the "Kings" of the "Church" and their constituents are numbered among those who have trampled God's Earthly Hosts over the pasts 2,000 or so years.

When the Nations gather to be judged for their acts against God's sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts, the Church will be among those who will be gathered at Armageddon to be judged.

As a point of interest, my understanding is that the trampling of God's Sanctuary began some time around 250 BC and the Daniel 8:9-14 prophecy, time wise, has not been completely fulfilled yet.

However, I expect you to disagree with this point of view.

As for your contention regarding earthquakes, you'll have to argue with every English Bible translator past and present.

No I do not have to argue with every Bible translator past or present, whether the bible is English, French or German, the same mistakes are common to them all. All I can do is point out the errors that I have discovered, as these errors tend to take us off on many red herrings and rabbit holes.

The shackles of the traditions of past "scholars" are particularly difficult to throw off. Particularly with the likes of your objections to what I have said with respect to just one Greek word root.

It seems to me that tradition is more important to you and discovering God's truth.

Good Bye
 

covenantee

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The link below give a fair understanding of the position that you come from.

Historicist interpretations of the Book of Revelation - Wikipedia

Sadly, many times I see that the entity that is behind many of the Biblical Prophecies, is never identified by Preterist or Historicists and as such their deliberations can be discarded to the WPB.

However, where the entity behind the Biblical Prophecies are correctly identified, then I have no problems with what they claim in those circumstances.

Now, the "Kings" and Armies of the Grecian and Roman Empires has been given to the entity that is behind the Daniel 8 prophecy concerning the trampling of God's Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts during the time of the existence of these two empires, but the more recent kings and their respective armies and nations is a little more difficult to identify as we approach the end of the Daniel 8:9-14 prophecy in our near future. In fact the "Kings" of the "Church" and their constituents are numbered among those who have trampled God's Earthly Hosts over the pasts 2,000 or so years.

When the Nations gather to be judged for their acts against God's sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts, the Church will be among those who will be gathered at Armageddon to be judged.

As a point of interest, my understanding is that the trampling of God's Sanctuary began some time around 250 BC and the Daniel 8:9-14 prophecy, time wise, has not been completely fulfilled yet.

However, I expect you to disagree with this point of view.



No I do not have to argue with every Bible translator past or present, whether the bible is English, French or German, the same mistakes are common to them all. All I can do is point out the errors that I have discovered, as these errors tend to take us off on many red herrings and rabbit holes.

The shackles of the traditions of past "scholars" are particularly difficult to throw off. Particularly with the likes of your objections to what I have said with respect to just one Greek word root.

It seems to me that tradition is more important to you and discovering God's truth.

Good Bye

The historicist perspective is rooted in the Book of Daniel.

Not Revelation, notwithstanding the numerous similarities.

Begin at the beginning, not at the end.

I can't disagree with your point of view because I'm unable to comprehend it, and since it is unique to you alone, I'm unable to find any elucidation elswhere.

You seem to consider yourself to be the only one discovering God's truth. This is typical cultism.

You can be assured that there are 17 centuries of historical Christian defenders of the faith who've discovered far more than you.

I cast my lot with them.
 

Jay Ross

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The historicist perspective is rooted in the Book of Daniel.

Not Revelation, notwithstanding the numerous similarities.

Begin at the beginning, not at the end.

I can't disagree with your point of view because I'm unable to comprehend it, and since it is unique to you alone, I'm unable to find any elucidation elswhere.

You seem to consider yourself to be the only one discovering God's truth. This is typical cultism.

You can be assured that there are 17 centuries of historical Christian defenders of the faith who've discovered far more than you.

I cast my lot with them.

I am sorry that you cannot find any elucidation in what others may post that questions your understanding.
 

Marty fox

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Interesting study you have done but humbly I think there are too many gaps and holes in the conclusion.
First I want to quote what Jesus said in Revelation...
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
— Revelation 1:8 (KJV)
When did this happen? It was penned by John while on the Isle of Patmos....Jesus appeared to him and told him to write these things to the seven churches of Asia.
My point is Jesus himself made a declaration of who He is...the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end....He who is, who was, and who is to come.
So Jesus made it clear that He has always been here and will continue to be here.
He exists outside of our measured time...the reason He is Omnipotent and Omnipresent is because He saw everything from beginning to end even before He came as the sacrificial Lamb.

Bottom line, IMHO, I believe that Daniel's visions are future when talking about kings and kingdoms that will arise.
In Chapter 8 Gabriel explains who the ram and the goat is....this vision has come and gone BUT there is another rise to power that is happening now with the Islamic regime rising up in power.

Thanks for your comment but then how would you exactly the verses from Hebrews?

The writer writes that it had already happened.
 

stunnedbygrace

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13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Some Christians think that this is in our future but I believe that the bible shows us that it happened on the day of Jesus accention and it was the same time as Revelation 12:5-10

on the day of His ascension, all nations and people of every language did not yet worship Him. So that did not already happen at the time of His ascension.
 
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Timtofly

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Hebrews 10:12-13
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

So the above verse is in the future?

It’s written in past tense
If Jesus is still waiting, then only after a Second Coming, will His rule on earth take place to finalize the deal. Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Your verse states still waiting. The 7th Trumpet is the point Jesus has full earthly control, yet Jesus as Prince is still promised a reign on earth for another 1,000 years.

Jesus stops waiting at the Second Coming. He then does for 1,000 years. Then and only then can He hand back the kingdom. Unless you can state Jesus is not waiting, and contradict the point you are making using that verse.

The verse does not say Jesus stopped waiting in the past.
 

Timtofly

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The Reformers accurately recognized the apostasized papacy as antichrist.

That recognition was a central doctrine of the Reformation.

God raised up, inspired, and empowered the Reformers for spiritual battle.

By His grace and mercy, they were successful.

All Protestants are the beneficiaries of that success.

Except those who are deceived and deny it.
This only points out the many antichrist and even great tribulation over the last 1992 years.

It is only Matthew 24:4-14. That is a true ongoing phenomenon until the Second Coming. Surely you don't think the Second Coming happened already in history. But watch out, because at the Second Coming there will be a new dispensation. You cannot be too rigid on your history, or else you are just one of those 2 Peter 3:3-8 people who only deal in strict historical dogmatism.
 

Marty fox

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No what I said was that the scriptures that you provided did not tell us when Daniel 7:13-14 will happen. However, it is possible to determine when Daniel 7:13-14 will happen in our near future. Isaiah 24:21-22 tells us that the wicked fallen heavenly hosts will be judged at the same time as the kings of the earth are Judged at Armageddon and immediately after their judgement they will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days in a pit to await the time of their punishment. Revelation tells us that after we see the three foul frog like spirits do signs and wonders that, all around the earth, people will see performed, then we will know that shortly afterwards, that the kings of the earth and their armies will be gathered at Armageddon to be judged. We also know from Paul in Romans 11:25-26, that when the fulness with respect to time of the Gentiles with respect to the Gentile trampling God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts, i.e. Israel, for 2,300 years, that after the completion of this time period, all of Israel will be saved. We also know from Exodus 20:4-6, that because of Israel's continuous idolatrous practices during the first two ages of their existence from the time that Isaac was born, that the iniquities of Israel's first two ages of the sins of their idolatrous worship will be visited upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth age of the existence of Israel. The four age of the existence of Israel will conclude in our near future when the fourth age of the existence of Israel concludes and God will, once again, begin His interactions with the Nation of Israel.

Jesus, in the lesson of the fig tree verse, i.e. Matt. 24:32, gives the time span from when the fig tree, i.e. Israel, begins to bud new leaves, that the beginning of the season when the harvest starts, can be determined by knowing when the fig tree begins to bud leaves in the early spring and when the Summer Season begins.

It is at this time of the Kings of the earth being gathered at Armageddon, that God will establish His everlasting Kingdom that can never be destroyed and the foundation stone of His Kingdom will come down out of heaven to become the highest mountain, i.e. religion, on all of the earth. It is at this time that we see Daniel 7:13-14 occur, in our near future, probably 20 or so years into our future.

In Rev. 18 we are told that the seven mountains come from the beast that goes into permanent loss as does Satan who momentarily becomes the eight mountain on the sea of humanity. But Rev. 18 is speaking of a time that is still over 1,000 years into our future and beyond our ability to comprehend.

At this time we should be focus on God/Christ and be God's watchers as He does what He has said He will do in our near future.

Shalom

But the Hebrews scripture told us that it had already happened
 

Marty fox

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If Jesus is still waiting, then only after a Second Coming, will His rule on earth take place to finalize the deal. Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Your verse states still waiting. The 7th Trumpet is the point Jesus has full earthly control, yet Jesus as Prince is still promised a reign on earth for another 1,000 years.

Jesus stops waiting at the Second Coming. He then does for 1,000 years. Then and only then can He hand back the kingdom. Unless you can state Jesus is not waiting, and contradict the point you are making using that verse.

The verse does not say Jesus stopped waiting in the past.

But the Hebrews scripture told us that it had already happened
 

Heart2Soul

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But the Hebrews scripture told us that it had already happened
Jesus told the disciples this....
Matthew 24 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
³ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.
⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There has already been an abomination of desolation in the past...but Jesus refers to Daniel's prophesy as a future event.

So is this physical or spiritual what Jesus refers to?

I know this may not seem reasonable to most but I believe there is a former and a latter in much of prophesy...IMHO the former came through the physical realm and the latter through the spiritual realm.

I will continue to pray and meditate on this and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth.

God Bless
 
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Marty fox

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on the day of His ascension, all nations and people of every language did not yet worship Him. So that did not already happen at the time of His ascension.

Jesus was given the power and authority at His ascension and every nation started to worship Him on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:5-41
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”


Peter Addresses the Crowd
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs,which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
 
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Timtofly

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Jesus was given the power and authority at His ascension and every nation started to worship Him on the day of Pentecost.
This is not the point. The end will be when Jesus hands the kingdom back to God, after Death is defeated.
 

stunnedbygrace

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¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

This verse jumped out at me. And then shall many be offended, especially. There is great fear currently of offending anyone or any group but despite everyone being very solicitous, anything and everything anyone says offends someone now, no matter how careful one tries to be. We seem to currently be right in the middle of “and then many shall be offended…”
 
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ewq1938

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Jesus was given the power and authority at His ascension and every nation started to worship Him on the day of Pentecost.


So? He was not given the rod of iron over the nations, nor were any saints. That only happens after the second coming. Scripture is very clear on that.
 

stunnedbygrace

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I know this may not seem reasonable to most but I believe there is a former and a latter in much of prophesy...IMHO the former came through the physical realm and the latter through the spiritual realm.

Ive never heard that said…interesting.
I sort of look at it as things repeating and…being shadows of, but sometimes not yet being, complete fulfillment. I don’t see that after what some think was the abomination there was tribulation worse than there ever was from the beginning of the world or ever will be again.
 
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