When did Daniel 7:13-14 happen?

[Hidden In Him]

Daniel 7:14 describes the same kingdom as Daniel 2:44.

That kingdom succeeded four earthly kingdoms, and was established in the days of the fourth kingdom.

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people

Hello, Covenantee.

It appears you are assuming this has been fulfilled, but it corresponds with the ten kings of Revelations, who will burn the whore with fire. The ten kings and their kingdom are destroyed by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in Power, i.e. at His second coming, not at His first.

God bless,
- H

 

[covenantee]

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people

Hello, Covenantee.

It appears you are assuming this has been fulfilled, but it corresponds with the ten kings of Revelations, who will burn the whore with fire. The ten kings and their kingdom are destroyed by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in Power, i.e. at His second coming, not at His first.

God bless,
- H

Hi, Hidden In Him

The fourth kingdom is history, but the Kingdom of God/Heaven is not.

God's blessings to you as well

Covenantee

 

[covenantee]

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people

Hello, Covenantee.

It appears you are assuming this has been fulfilled, but it corresponds with the ten kings of Revelations, who will burn the whore with fire. The ten kings and their kingdom are destroyed by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in Power, i.e. at His second coming, not at His first.

God bless,
- H

Which Revelation Scripture are you referring to specifically?

 

[ScottA]

Daniel 7:9-10 depicts the second coming and final judgement (The Books Were Open)

You suggest Daniel 7:13 jumps back in time 2,000 years to the ascension, I disagree

You believe this took place at the ascension I disagree, Daniel states the Son of Man "Came" with the clouds of heaven, not "Goes" with the clouds of heaven as you believe and teach

Marty your complete assumption is destroyed with the word "Came" in the clouds of heaven, your ascension theory is "Gone"

"Future" (Second Coming Final Judgement)

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 7:9-10KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

I see the second coming of the Lord in the heavens in Daniel 7:13, with Daniel 7:14 being a parallel teaching of Revelation 11:15, Jesus Kingdom for ever and ever after the second coming "Future"

Daniel 7:13-14KJV
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

@Jay Ross
The difference that you perceive as future rather than past, is simply one of perspective. The one perspective is from heaven telling of that side of the event, while the other perspective is from the world. Yet it is one event.

The only reason that some believe it to be future, is for lack of seeing it occur in the world. Which is confirmed by Christ saying, "you will see the Son of Man coming" speaking to the high priest during that time. Meaning that the high priest would "soon" see Him after his own death...as Jesus also said of all those "things that would shortly come to pass." Which indeed is also yet in the future (as you say) for those who have yet to enter into His presence.

 

[Marty fox]

@Jay Ross
The difference that you perceive as future rather than past, is simply one of perspective. The one perspective is from heaven telling of that side of the event, while the other perspective is from the world. Yet it is one event.

The only reason that some believe it to be future, is for lack of seeing it occur in the world. Which is confirmed by Christ saying, "you will see the Son of Man coming" speaking to the high priest during that time. Meaning that the high priest would "soon" see Him after his own death...as Jesus also said of all those "things that would shortly come to pass." Which indeed is also yet in the future (as you say) for those who have yet to enter into His presence.

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people

Hello, Covenantee.

It appears you are assuming this has been fulfilled, but it corresponds with the ten kings of Revelations, who will burn the whore with fire. The ten kings and their kingdom are destroyed by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in Power, i.e. at His second coming, not at His first.

God bless,
- H

Yes in the day’s of those kings and we know that king Neb was one of those king. The kingdom was spiritual and it was set up backwards for Daniels days. How else could the rock destroy kingdoms in the past if it does come until the future?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes in the day’s of those kings and we know that king Neb was one of those king. The kingdom was spiritual and it was set up backwards for Daniels days. How else could the rock destroy kingdoms in the past if it does come until the future?

I guess my question there would be what passage/ passages are you basing it on to establishing that this event was fulfilled in the past?

 

[Marty fox]

Hi Marty,

Dan. 7 13 - 14 matches with Rev. 5:6 - 10 the investiture of the Son of Man with the Kingdom. This is future.

Dan. 7: 13 & 14 `1 was watching in the night visions and behold, one like the Son of Man, coming on the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom...`

Rev. 5: 6, 7 & 12 `And I looked and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it has been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven (fold) Spirit of God sent out into all the earth.

Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne .......`Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honour and blessing.`

The Apostle John was given more detail than Daniel in relation to this event.

Why do you think that is all future?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why do you think that is all future?

That's kinda hard to answer, as there are a ton of things. I think it would take me a long time trying to recall it all.

You don't have a central passage or two which pins the events described to the past? I'm assuming your doctrine is coming from a few passages in particular.

 

[Marty fox]

I guess my question there would be what passage/ passages are you basing it on to establishing that this event was fulfilled in the past?

Daniel 2:38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold

King Neb and Babylon is the head of gold

34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

The rock (the kingdom of God) destroys the four kingdoms including the head of gold. Thus the rock the kingdom of God destroyed the four ancient kingdoms starting over 2500 years ago

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

 

[Marty fox]

That's kinda hard to answer, as there are a ton of things. I think it would take me a long time trying to recall it all.

You don't have a central passage or two which pins the events described to the past? I'm assuming your doctrine is coming from a few passages in particular.

I was asking Marylin C but I did reply to you also

 

[ScottA]

Yes in the day’s of those kings and we know that king Neb was one of those king. The kingdom was spiritual and it was set up backwards for Daniels days. How else could the rock destroy kingdoms in the past if it does come until the future?

These things are considered foreshadowings. But it was broken down for Daniel as "a time, times, and half of time", the apex of which is Christ and the end of sacrifices.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Daniel 2:38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold

King Neb and Babylon is the head of gold

34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

The rock (the kingdom of God) destroys the four kingdoms including the head of gold. Thus the rock the kingdom of God destroyed the four ancient kingdoms starting over 2500 years ago

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

Ah. I see.

Then my response here would be, for starters anyway, that if you are relating Daniel 2 to Daniel 7, Daniel 7 appears to be chronological rather than simultaneous, with the last beast being the one who is destroyed and the kingdom given over to the saints of God:

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows. 21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

 

[Marty fox]

Ah. I see.

Then my response here would be, for starters anyway, that if you are relating Daniel 2 to Daniel 7, Daniel 7 appears to be chronological rather than simultaneous, with the last beast being the one who is destroyed and the kingdom given over to the saints of God:

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows. 21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

I see this fulfilled in the times of the Maccabees as the fourth beast was Antiochus Epehanies

By the way I love your avatar gladiator is one of the best movies ever

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

All these verses don't prove your point .Do you not know that God is that consuming fire, do you also not realize that His fire only consumes the wicked .

This earth will not be destroyed ,do you not know that God's favorite place is on this earth?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see this fulfilled in the times of the Maccabees as the fourth beast was Antiochus Epehanies

By the way I love your avatar gladiator is one of the best movies ever

Yeah. That's still my favorite of all time. Surprisingly spiritually-oriented for such a blood-thirsty spectacle, Lol.

Well, Antiochus IV was indeed the closest forerunner to the Antichrist to date, but I still think you run into too many difficulties saying he was the fulfillment. Jesus seemed to point very clearly to another that was coming in Matthew 24, as something the disciples still needed to be watching for:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

I need to check out for the evening, but I'll try to catch up tomorrow.

God bless, and have a good night.
- H

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes in the day’s of those kings and we know that king Neb was one of those king. The kingdom was spiritual and it was set up backwards for Daniels days. How else could the rock destroy kingdoms in the past if it does come until the future?

Actually the Great Image is the times of the Gentiles ruling the world. And they are still doing that today. It is an overview of the great world rulers that God said would rule the world, and one is yet to come to full power.

 

[Marilyn C]

Why do you think that is all future?

Those scenes are future for the Lord has not as yet moved to His own throne. He is still on the Father`s throne. (Heb. 1: 1 - 3) The Father is bringing the nations (enemies) to His Son`s footstool, (Ps. 110: 2) while the Son is building up and maturing His Body. (Eph. 4: 13)

When the Lord, the Head of His Body comes for His Overcomers, then He will gather them together and take them to His own throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21) From there the Lord will start to execute the judgments written upon the scroll. The Body of Christ will also judge the world system and (fallen) angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

[Marty fox]

Actually the Great Image is the times of the Gentiles ruling the world. And they are still doing that today. It is an overview of the great world rulers that God said would rule the world, and one is yet to come to full power.

But king Nebuchadnezzar was one of those kings Daniel clarified it

 

[Marty fox]

Yeah. That's still my favorite of all time. Surprisingly spiritually-oriented for such a blood-thirsty spectacle, Lol.

Well, Antiochus IV was indeed the closest forerunner to the Antichrist to date, but I still think you run into too many difficulties saying he was the fulfillment. Jesus seemed to point very clearly to another that was coming in Matthew 24, as something the disciples still needed to be watching for:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

I need to check out for the evening, but I'll try to catch up tomorrow.

God bless, and have a good night.
- H

Yes the re was still another to come but the beast of revelation is different from the fourth beast in Daniel. There is an OT beast and a NT beast

 

[Brakelite]

Hello, Marty.

EWQ is correct. Your translation is somewhat flawed however, which may be influencing your theology somewhat. A proper rendering of the passage would be as follows:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His Presence. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom (καὶ ἡ βασιλεία), that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed (καὶ ἡ βασιλεία αὐτοῦ οὐ διαφθαρήσεται).

These statements are made in the context of Daniel prophesying about four earthly kingdoms that would rule the earth - material kingdoms, not spiritual ones. Thus, the context clearly suggests that the kingdom talked about in v.13-14 is also a reference to one that is going to be material, not spiritual.

There's an aspect that needs to be recognized however. While I agree with you that the first 4 empires, Babylon, Meda-Persia, Greece and Rome were earthly kingdoms, there are other powers/horns that grew from them, one of which considered itself a spiritual power by opposing even heaven. Obviously this cannot be in a physical sense, but spiritual.
KJV Daniel 8:9-11
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.