When is a christian NOT a Christian?

[brakelite]

I better understand now. You are equating the word "punish" to physical punishment and confiscation of property. I was equating it to banishment from the community. I apologize for using it in such narrow terms.

Ananias and Sapphira where "punished" for lying to Peter who was the head of The Church after Jesus had risen soooo there is that.

The punishment of heretics was done by Protestant churches also sooooo how about if you research their "biblical justification" and stop looking at the splinter in your brothers eye.

Historically we know that the secular authorities, not the CC, carried out or enforced the atrocities you speak of. Those accused of heresy preferred their day in court to be in a Catholic tribunal and NOT a secular court because they were treated better by The Church.

There is no "biblical justification" for the sins you speak of that were committed by the men of The Church and your Protestant men.

There is no "biblical justification" for the sins you commit.

Mary

Interesting that you found it necessary to differentiate between Catholic churches and Protestant. I did no such thing. I did medieval churches, which includes both. So my question stands... What biblical foundation is there in the church for putting to death 'heretics'. Ananias and Sapphira do not count... They were not heretics, they lied to God and swore they were telling the truth. Nothing to do with doctrine. And we both know that the church particularly the Catholic variety, relentlessly persecuted other Christians, even ones that called themselves Catholic, for disagreeing over doctrine.
What is unsettling, that unlike Protestant churches today, the Catholic church still defends her right to do so.

 

[Waiting on him]

( EDIT:- addition....I am added this and changed the heading.
I am NOT after a list of verses about salvation...but I want to hear 'from you'.
I changed the heading when responding to @Enoch111 's post below. )
thanks....
-------

I was thinking it would be interesting what other Christians here think a Christian is...
AND who is 'allowed' to call themselves that?

(We'd like you in on this too @lforrest don't want you missing this post. )

There was some chatter the other day about who was 'allowed' to have "Christian" under their avatar and who should put 'Other Faith', in it's place. ( locking them out of 95% of the forum boards)
So, who defines who can call themselves a christian?

The Nicene creed was mentioned. > for those who don't know it , or have forgotten its content. Nicene Creed

I for one don't agree with a line at the end of it... re the Holy Spirit. It says:-
"He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified."

I don't agree with that... I don't care if they were wise old men with beards.
I don't find that (bolded line) anywhere in the bible at all. In fact it is says He points TO the Father and Son. ( away from Himself)

The Nicene Creed would also define as none-christian any who have a different interpretation of what is called "The Trinity" ...with all the gobbledegook that goes with it about whether it is three persons in one, or one person with three distinct expressions...blah blah blah...
So, if the Nicene Creed is the acid test....are the none trinitarians not christians along with me...( who doesn't believe the Holy Spirit wants to be 'worshipped and glorified'. )

So, who says who is a christian, and who is not.

What do all of you have to say?

.....Helen

Simple answer, a Christian is one who is Christ like.

 

[Waiting on him]

Ananias and Sapphira where "punished" for lying to Peter who was the head of The Church after Jesus had risen soooo there is that.

Dear @Marymog, this is an asinine statement, Peter was never the head of the church of Christ, and it wasn’t Peter that scripture says they lied to.

 

[brakelite]

Ananias and Sapphira where "punished" for lying to Peter who was the head of The Church after Jesus had risen soooo there is that.

Dear @Marymog, this is an asinine statement, Peter was never the head of the church of Christ, and it wasn’t Peter that scripture says they lied to.

And it wasn't the church that punished them... And the church certainly did not hand them over to the state to be punished.

 

[farouk]

If a member denied the cross, it's purpose ect - I think that would be a red flag for me as it is central.
I think it would have to be something that binds us all together, regardless of the theology that we often see differently.
I was thinking about the insults that people often throw around between each other - and was reminded of the man healed of blindness, at first he could not see clearly - he couldn't see as others did. Isn't that a picture of all believers - we 'see ' because Jesus enables us to see, but it doesn't always happen at once. So when one person ' doesn't get something , and it can work visa versa ' it isn't always down to them not having a faith, but simply down to the reality that their eyes have not yet been open to what someone else sees.
Rita

The Cross is indeed central; Philippians 2 is a pivotal passage about the Lord Jesus having been obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross; which changes the perspective on everything.

 

[farouk]

So how would you determine what is wilful blindness as opposed to real blindness !?
How would you know ?
So your talking about denial - which can be down to lack of insight or pride !?
Who would be judge of that , after all pride, denial are human traits- not one single person here could claim to be immune.
Rita

Well, it's the Lord that searches the heart ... (Jeremiah 17.10).

 

[Faither]

( EDIT:- addition....I am added this and changed the heading.
I am NOT after a list of verses about salvation...but I want to hear 'from you'.
I changed the heading when responding to @Enoch111 's post below. )
thanks....
-------

I was thinking it would be interesting what other Christians here think a Christian is...
AND who is 'allowed' to call themselves that?

(We'd like you in on this too @lforrest don't want you missing this post. )

There was some chatter the other day about who was 'allowed' to have "Christian" under their avatar and who should put 'Other Faith', in it's place. ( locking them out of 95% of the forum boards)
So, who defines who can call themselves a christian?

The Nicene creed was mentioned. > for those who don't know it , or have forgotten its content. Nicene Creed

I for one don't agree with a line at the end of it... re the Holy Spirit. It says:-
"He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified."

I don't agree with that... I don't care if they were wise old men with beards.
I don't find that (bolded line) anywhere in the bible at all. In fact it is says He points TO the Father and Son. ( away from Himself)

The Nicene Creed would also define as none-christian any who have a different interpretation of what is called "The Trinity" ...with all the gobbledegook that goes with it about whether it is three persons in one, or one person with three distinct expressions...blah blah blah...
So, if the Nicene Creed is the acid test....are the none trinitarians not christians along with me...( who doesn't believe the Holy Spirit wants to be 'worshipped and glorified'. )

So, who says who is a christian, and who is not.

What do all of you have to say?

.....Helen

Hi Helen, my name is Jay and new to this forum. I haven't read through the entire thread but wanted to give my understanding on it.

I've been trying to wrap my head around your first question, when is a Christian not Christian? Because it's kind of a contradiction based upon a misunderstanding that anyone who claims to be a Christian actually is a Christian. We're told that many are called out, but few are chosen. So if your basing your question on those few who found it, i would say they are always a Christian.

As for who says who is a Christian and who is not, out of those chosen few, some would have a gift for discernment that could make a judgement (Temporal judgement, not eternal) where someone is currently at in their salvation journey.

Hope I just didn't repeat another reply.

 

[Marymog]

No I don't believe so.
A christian can be a pew filler, as are many. But with only regular church attendance and a confession to be one. ( only God knows the heart)

I see a disciple as a person who follows hard after the Lord 24/7 having a desire and passion to press onward into all that the Lord has for us.

Thank you BG,

I get the gist of what you are saying.

 

[Marymog]

Interesting that you found it necessary to differentiate between Catholic churches and Protestant. I did no such thing. I did medieval churches, which includes both. So my question stands... What biblical foundation is there in the church for putting to death 'heretics'. Ananias and Sapphira do not count... They were not heretics, they lied to God and swore they were telling the truth. Nothing to do with doctrine. And we both know that the church particularly the Catholic variety, relentlessly persecuted other Christians, even ones that called themselves Catholic, for disagreeing over doctrine.
What is unsettling, that unlike Protestant churches today, the Catholic church still defends her right to do so.

Sooooo Ananias and Sapphira did not accept or practice what The Church was teaching/practincing but they weren't heretics??????

I can't do this anymore.....You don't even know the definition of heretic.....You make ZERO sense....Good luck. My prayers are with you.


Mary

 

[Marymog]

Ananias and Sapphira where "punished" for lying to Peter who was the head of The Church after Jesus had risen soooo there is that.

Dear @Marymog, this is an asinine statement, Peter was never the head of the church of Christ, and it wasn’t Peter that scripture says they lied to.

Asinine statement??? Well....are you not the articulate one.

Jesus disagrees with you: Matthew 16:18-19 and other parts of Scripture makes it VERY clear that Peter was the head of The Church. Do some bible study kiddo....If you need help, let me know.

2,000 years of Christian teaching disagrees with your theory....take the time to learn what the Apostolic and Church Fathers taught not what some of your Protestant teachers have taught you.

If you took the time to learn your own Christian history you would learn that some Protestant theologians disagree with you.

The words (the lie) Ananias and Sapphira spoke were spoken to Peter. When they lied to Peter they lied to God since Peter was the head of or the Rock of the Church....Just like Jesus said he was.

Peter had the authority to bind on earth what is bound in heaven....Just like Jesus said he could.....

Soooooo your ignorance of Scripture can be forgiven this time HOWEVER since I have now taught you the Truth.....you won't get away with ignorance next time.

Hope @"ByGrace" @brakelite enjoyed the bible study....

 

[Waiting on him]

Asinine statement??? Well....are you not the articulate one.

Jesus disagrees with you: Matthew 16:18-19 and other parts of Scripture makes it VERY clear that Peter was the head of The Church. Do some bible study kiddo....If you need help, let me know.

2,000 years of Christian teaching disagrees with your theory....take the time to learn what the Apostolic and Church Fathers taught not what some of your Protestant teachers have taught you.

If you took the time to learn your own Christian history you would learn that some Protestant theologians disagree with you.

The words (the lie) Ananias and Sapphira spoke were spoken to Peter. When they lied to Peter they lied to God since Peter was the head of or the Rock of the Church....Just like Jesus said he was.

Peter had the authority to bind on earth what is bound in heaven....Just like Jesus said he could.....

Soooooo your ignorance of Scripture can be forgiven this time HOWEVER since I have now taught you the Truth.....you won't get away with ignorance next time.

Hope @"ByGrace" @brakelite enjoyed the bible study....

Acts 5:4 KJV
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


Tecarta BibleI don’t have a Protestant teacher, why would I, is the Holy Spirit insufficient?

I’m going to let you in on a secret, only because I like you.
You have no need that any man teach you.

 

[Helen]

Hi Helen, my name is Jay and new to this forum. I haven't read through the entire thread but wanted to give my understanding on it.

I've been trying to wrap my head around your first question, when is a Christian not Christian? Because it's kind of a contradiction based upon a misunderstanding that anyone who claims to be a Christian actually is a Christian. We're told that many are called out, but few are chosen. So if your basing your question on those few who found it, i would say they are always a Christian.

As for who says who is a Christian and who is not, out of those chosen few, some would have a gift for discernment that could make a judgement (Temporal judgement, not eternal) where someone is currently at in their salvation journey.

Hope I just didn't repeat another reply.

Hello there Jay...and welcome to the Forum.

I know this thread got far too long for you to read all the posts.

In one post I did clarify why I started it.
It was via someone else. She had been told on another site that she was lying because she had "christian" on her avatar.
Because of one small thing that she did not agree with in the Nicene Creed.

On this site over the years I have often got fed up with seeing some people being nasty to others who don't see things " their way"...in other words , they believe that they are right, and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong.

They say " You are not a Christian" ( which I believe you will find actually breaks the rules of the Site. )
I have even seen " you will not go to heaven.."

Hence this thread "When is a christian not a christian ..."...and who has the right to say so.

Post #11 was by the admin...and was the answer I was wanting...privately we can think what we like...but not tell someone else that they are not a christian.

There was much more to this...but in a nutshell, that is how it all came about

Feel free to comment....

 

[Faither]

Hello there Jay...and welcome to the Forum.

I know this thread got far too long for you to read all the posts.

In one post I did clarify why I started it.
It was via someone else. She had been told on another site that she was lying because she had "christian" on her avatar.
Because of one small thing that she did not agree with in the Nicene Creed.

On this site over the years I have often got fed up with seeing some people being nasty to others who don't see things " their way"...in other words , they believe that they are right, and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong.

They say " You are not a Christian" ( which I believe you will find actually breaks the rules of the Site. )
I have even seen " you will not go to heaven.."

Hence this thread "When is a christian not a christian ..."...and who has the right to say so.

Post #11 was by the admin...and was the answer I was wanting...privately we can think what we like...but not tell someone else that they are not a christian.

There was much more to this...but in a nutshell, that is how it all came about

Feel free to comment....

Thanks for getting me caught up.

Just think if you have something really important and a legitament concern, trying to get the message out in todays world.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Asinine statement??? Well....are you not the articulate one.

Jesus disagrees with you: Matthew 16:18-19 and other parts of Scripture makes it VERY clear that Peter was the head of The Church. Do some bible study kiddo....If you need help, let me know.

2,000 years of Christian teaching disagrees with your theory....take the time to learn what the Apostolic and Church Fathers taught not what some of your Protestant teachers have taught you.

If you took the time to learn your own Christian history you would learn that some Protestant theologians disagree with you.

The words (the lie) Ananias and Sapphira spoke were spoken to Peter. When they lied to Peter they lied to God since Peter was the head of or the Rock of the Church....Just like Jesus said he was.

Peter had the authority to bind on earth what is bound in heaven....Just like Jesus said he could.....

Soooooo your ignorance of Scripture can be forgiven this time HOWEVER since I have now taught you the Truth.....you won't get away with ignorance next time.

Hope @"ByGrace" @brakelite enjoyed the bible study....

And not to mention that it was Jesus who named him Peter.

 

[brakelite]

Sooooo Ananias and Sapphira did not accept or practice what The Church was teaching/practincing but they weren't heretics??????

I can't do this anymore.....You don't even know the definition of heretic.....You make ZERO sense....Good luck. My prayers are with you.


Mary

You really need to read your Bible again. The issue with that couple was not doctrinal, and I'm not interested in the Catholic church's definition of heresy... They simply used any excuse to wipe out anyone who disagreed with them.

 

[Waiting on him]

You really need to read your Bible again. The issue with that couple was not doctrinal, and I'm not interested in the Catholic church's definition of heresy... They simply used any excuse to wipe out anyone who disagreed with them.

Is the Laity allowed to read the Bible?

 

[brakelite]

Is the Laity allowed to read the Bible?

Of course they are. They're just not allowed to decide what it means. According to them doing so would make them a little Pope. And there's only one Pope. And only he gets to decide what scripture means. Disagree with him and you are excommunicated... Used to be a little worse than that... Used to be a capital offence. Still is according to the official records, and I guess once the Vatican regains it's sovereignty heresy will once again be a criminal offence. Only way to be safe is agree with the Pope. Was a time when 3 'popes' were vying for the top spot... They all accused each other as being the Antichrist. I suppose we would have to agree with them on that too. All 3 of them.

 

[Waiting on him]

Of course they are. They're just not allowed to decide what it means. According to them doing so would make them a little Pope. And there's only one Pope. And only he gets to decide what scripture means. Disagree with him and you are excommunicated... Used to be a little worse than that... Used to be a capital offence. Still is according to the official records, and I guess once the Vatican regains it's sovereignty heresy will once again be a criminal offence. Only way to be safe is agree with the Pope. Was a time when 3 'popes' were vying for the top spot... They all accused each other as being the Antichrist. I suppose we would have to agree with them on that too. All 3 of them.

Mary may not believe it, but I would like to see her free of that.

 

[Gospel Believer]

If one can say “ Jesus is Lord” and mean it, that person is a Christian

 

[Phoneman777]

The word "Christian" is casting a very wide net...
But the bible boils all these down into 3 types...(and all are Christian)

The holy: saints who walk in the grace of God and/or are led by the Spirit.
The righteous: These are humble and fear the Lord and act honestly and have love for others.
The filthy: These are the pretenders...the hypocrites, the religious believers who say much but are really just doing their own thing. Claiming to be holy these always soil their garments with the world.

I don't see how you separate the first two. Both are attributes of Christ, seeing we're told to "walk even as He walked" and to be humble even as He is "meek and lowly in heart". The word "Christian" means a person who "follows Christ" which word "follow" simply means "imitates" Christ by the only means we can: the surrender of our heart throne to Christ, right?