When is the last time you told a lie?

[quietthinker]

I don't remember. I know one that we're all probably guilty of is "I'm okay" or "I'm fine" when we're really not. I downplay things at times. I think lying is not okay, and we usually consider that to be scripturally correct and limit it to that. However, I think in the instance of protecting life, acting in accordance with faith in God to protect his purpose, then it is acceptable.

We see this in Joshua 2. The two spies sent by Joshua attend the house of a prostitute named Rahab. In faith and fear of God, she takes them under her wing and hides the men at her home. The king says basically, these spies are there, go get them. Rahab is questioned about the men.

This is her response:

Verse 4.“Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, they left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)

Rahab is later mentioned as an example her faith in Hebrews 11 and how it saved her life. "By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient."

The recommendation Rahab got was for hiding the spies not for lying. There are other ways of dealing with the situation. Take for instance the situation with Lot. The towns folk were determined to get Lot's visitors (the angels) but they were struck with blindness....they couldn't find the door. So, what does blindness mean? Does it mean their eyesight went black or does it mean they couldn't identify where the door was?

Here's another one; they took Jesus to the brow of the cliff to throw him over but he walked through them. What happened here? Was he that deft at kung fu he managed to negotiate a path out between each individual? ...did he just vanish?....have a think about it.

I recall the story of a Christian family hiding some Jews during the Second World War. The Nazis knocked on their door and asked if they were hiding anybody.....they said, come and look for your self and although those hidden were in the area searched they were not found. Could it be that God hid them from the eyes of the soldiers?....I think it's possible.

God worked in spite of Rahab's lie, not because of it. Did that justify the lie?....we better not believe that! Had she taken an approach with integrity re this matter the outcome would probably have been the same.

The record of God's people, whether it be Rahab or Abraham or Samson or many others, reveals their failings as well as their victories. Does that mean we are justified in our failings because we read of theirs. I don't think so.

The bar according to Jesus is set at perfection. How can we who have died to sin live any longer there in?...Paul. Note, he is not saying we will get away with justifying our sin or making excuses for it.

 

[Sabertooth]

Looking at places in the Bible where God has blessed His people lying (and stealing & killing) in certain contexts, I have concluded that lying & deception are weapons. Like other weapons, they are inappropriate in general, peaceful circumstances, but are appropriate in some contexts, like war and law enforcement. (Many blessed, Biblical examples were bluffs.)

Jesus even did a bluff in one instance. The prohibition in the Bible is against unjustified, damaging lies & deception.

Complimenting somebody's appearance to cheer them up is not a damaging lie.

 

[quietthinker]

Looking at places in the Bible where God has blessed His people lying (and stealing & killing) in certain contexts, I have concluded that lying & deception are weapons. Like other weapons, they are inappropriate in general, peaceful circumstances, but are appropriate in some contexts, like war and law enforcement. (Many blessed, Biblical examples were bluffs.)

Jesus even did a bluff in one instance. The prohibition in the Bible is against unjustified, damaging lies & deception.

Complimenting somebody's appearance to cheer them up is not a damaging lie.

If God is consistent it means consistency in all circumstances. If we argue otherwise we take the very position of Lucifer.
Strangely, the prince of darkness has ratcheted our understanding around to fall in line with his own then superimpose it onto God making it appear as if God is inconsistent....and so justifying our own inconsistency.....herein is the deception.

God does not use evil to fight evil.....that has been adequately revealed in the crucifixion. Jesus revealed to us God's reality that it is consistent to the point of death. He is Holy. The creatures in Revelation cry Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.

 

[Sabertooth]

If God is consistent it means consistency in all circumstances.

We must use the Bible to interpret the Bible and its true boundaries.

This thread has already referred to Rahab's Lie to hide the Hebrew spies.

Here are other lies and deception that God blessed,...

~~~~~~~~~~​

Gideon's Bluff [Judges 7:15-22]
His army appeared to be much more menacing than it was.

~~~~~~~~~~​

Solomon's Bluff [1 Kings 3:16-28]
“Divide the living child in two, and give half to one, and half to the other.” v. 25

~~~~~~~~~~​

Micaiah's Truthful Prophecy About A Lying Spirit Sent By God...! [2 Chronicles 18:18-22]
“Therefore hear the word of the Lord:
I saw the Lord sitting on His throne,
and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left.

The Lord: Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?
So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. [They started brainstorming...]
God's Subordinate: [Ooh! Ooh! I know!] I will persuade him.
The Lord: In what way?
God's Subordinate: I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.
The Lord: You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.

Therefore look!
The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours,
and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

~~~~~~~~~~​

Jesus' Bluff [Luke 24:13-35]
"Then they drew near to the village where they were going,
and [Jesus, incognito] indicated that He would have gone farther.*
But they constrained Him, saying,

'Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.'​

And He went in to stay with them." vv. 28-29

*When He had no intention of doing so.

 

[amigo de christo]

Thats right let the focus of our heart be on pleasing the One who has saved us . Let us remember the words , Be ye Holy for I am Holy .
Let us grow in the grace of our Lord . Praise be to His Holy name .

 

[GTW27]

Sometimes, the best answer is no answer at all. Which is more important, to offend the one in front of you, or the One that gives you your next breath. It has been said, that these signs will accompany those who believe, of one that they shall speak in new tongues. The gift of tongues is always accompanied with a tongue of grace to the hearers in which there is no lie. So indeed, we shall all speak in new tongues, as the old has passed away and all things become new.

 

[Sabertooth]

Sometimes, the best answer is no answer at all.

This part is true, but turning "speak with new tongues" into "not lying" is a stretch.

 

[GTW27]

This part is true, but turning "speak with new tongues" into "not lying" is a stretch.

What defiles a man proceeds out from the heart. He who is truly born anew, speaks from the new heart. Not a stretch, all within His promises. A Christian is not one who practices, but simply is. It is the old man that is a lier, a killer, and a thief, for he follows his master and speaks the things of his master.
That is why we are to put him to death. Give him a burrial, put him 6 feet down, and celebrate the Goodness of The Lord.

 

[marks]

Ok the hard and fast view needs to be expressed I admit. But I don't subscribe to it myself.

For me the answer is simple. We are to love honesty and truth.

Ephesians 4:25 KJV
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

If we lie to each other we are doing the same thing to others that our flesh does to us. Deceives us so that we don't do what we would otherwise.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Rationalizations and justifications? Be honest with yourself and you're OK. But that's not what I was talking about. I have schizophrenia, and my mind has tiny hallucinations all day long, I have to ignore them and continue my day normally, temptations I ignore also.

It sounds like you have much the same perspective of the flesh as I do, and maybe informed in the same way. I have ignore my depression/anxiety, and I have to ignore temptations, and its in the same way, mental discipline through trusting in Jesus to keep me OK.

Much love!

 

[marks]

White lies?? Are you sure about that?
As for manipulation, you need more examples to assert that white lies are always manipulative.

Just consider why you want to tell a "white lie". What would the reason be?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The only part that I disagree with you about is that didn't Jesus go to Hell first when He took our punishment on our behalf? Or is that a myth?

My understanding was that His death itself was sufficient.

Jesus went to "preach to the spirits in prison". Not to be punished, to evangelize.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Thanks as the second verse you quoted makes sense, but how do you know that the first one isn't speaking of a physical death where the body is buried? (Even though Jesus' body was put in a tomb granted but they might have not known that originally.) Sorry, getting a bit off topic I know.

The Son of Man was in the "heart of the earth", but His body remained in the tomb. Jesus became incarnate, but just like us, "we" are not our bodies. Just like we will survive the death of our bodies. That's my understanding.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just to clarify ...I'm not promoting deception.
I'm questioning black and white directives
" Do not lie".
I think above all we should be honest with ourselves. Know when we are telling a white lie. And for what reason. My reason in the OP was to cheer up my father.
Intention is crucial. If our intention is to boost our own profile, then that is highly sinful.

Well said!

But I have to ask, if we are in love with truth, and with being honest people, are there still ways for us to build each other, and encourage each other?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You think that wise? And you become immediately suspicious to the Gestapo raiding your house?
You are putting the Jews lives in danger.

I think the question becomes, who do you trust more? God, to work His perfect will as you remain honest? Or yourself, to manipulate the situation into what you think it should be by telling lies?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, but consider the case of Corrie Ten Boom and her sister Betsy during WWII. Corrie did lie to protect the Jews or her family, but Betsy would not. The tongue... hmmm? Who controls our tongue?

Corrie was a great woman of God, but she learned a whole lot from her sister's example before Betsy died in the concentration camp where they both were imprisoned. Corrie always prayed for the mistreated prisoners, but Betsy also prayed for the guards who mistreated them. That was a hard thing for Corrie to learn...

Their story remains one of the greatest inspirations in my life.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Their story remains one of the greatest inspirations in my life.

Much love!

Mine as well. I still have copies of "The Hiding Place" and the sequel, "Tramp for the Lord", which I will reread every few years.

 

[marks]

Mine as well. I still have copies of "The Hiding Place" and the sequel, "Tramp for the Lord", which I will reread every few years.

I saw Corrie Ten Boom speak in my 9th grade year. I've never forgotten it!

Much love!

 

[dev553344]

It sounds like you have much the same perspective of the flesh as I do, and maybe informed in the same way. I have ignore my depression/anxiety, and I have to ignore temptations, and its in the same way, mental discipline through trusting in Jesus to keep me OK.

Much love!

I also found thru service to God my soul feels peace and love!

 

[marks]

I also found thru service to God my soul feels peace and love!

Yep!

Instead of looking inside myself, when I am focused on others, I'm not noticing myself so much!

I've learned that in faith - preaching to myself now, this is what I need - in faith we walk in love and peace and joy and self-control, in the Spirit.

I just have to choose to.

Much love!