When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[Davy]

No one has their spirit until the Second Coming, that spirit cannot reside in Adam's dead flesh. You are not being replaced with a spiritual body.

I suggest you leave... immediately... that Judaism church you are getting all that from. They are the ones behind the 'soul sleep' doctrines, and that is part of what you are pushing. The soul is NOT made up of material matter. Neither is our spirit.

And we mostly certainly DO have a 'spirit' inside our flesh, right now, and hereafter, unless because of rebellion we are cast into the future "lake of fire" and experience the "second death", which IS the destruction of our spirit with soul.

You clearly have NOT understood Jesus in John 3. Because you haven't, that's how I can tell you've been exposed to the Jewish traditions that Nicodemus was, and thus is why he couldn't understand Jesus either. I mean, Jesus showed it's our 'spirit' that is "born again", NOT our flesh!

Start reading more of The New Testament instead of coming to try and confuse people.

 

[Davy]

I'm not twisting the scripture. It plainly says the new body is in heaven not in our current bodies. You are just wrong and you have no defense so you default to attack me.

You don't even realize what you're saying.

OF COURSE the "spiritual body" is a heavenly type body. Have I not shown that? Yeah, I have, but you not conversing with me honestly are you? You've been sent here by Judaizers, right, since you believe in a resurrection of the FLESH, and that is a JEW's doctrine!

 

[dad]

No, but you are misquoting again. On the contrary, John said "now", referring to that time--2000 years ago.

Stop adding and taking away from the truth, for which men are accursed.

Actually, it referred to nothing of the sort. The 'when' puts it somewhere else. Be honest

 

[dad]

Nope, that's the old Jewish leaven doctrine of thinking that our spirit with soul is made up of flesh matter like our flesh body. Apostle Paul showed what the resurrection body is, A "SPIRITUAL BODY" (1 Corinthians 15).

To settle this decisively and once and for all we go to what Jesus Himself said. So what was His body like?

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have

For the win/

All you reveal here is your link to beliefs from Judaism's fleshy doctrines! You show you have NEVER even read much of The New Testament, and especially not 1 Corinthians 15 by Apostle Paul!

Let him that reads understand. Then there are the folks like you..

 

[ScottA]

Actually, it referred to nothing of the sort. The 'when' puts it somewhere else. Be honest

Good--you accuse me, but show yourself as being dishonest. Great!

Here's the passage again. "Now" meant 2000 years ago--whoever is actually being honest can see that...but apparently not you:

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2​

 

[dad]

Good--you accuse me, but show yourself as being dishonest. Great!

Here's the passage again. "Now" meant 2000 years ago--whoever is actually being honest can see that...but apparently not you:

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2​

Your false accusations aside, try to focus. Watch I will bold the word that shows the context.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2


Obviously that is talking about when He returns. Only then shall we be like Him. Just admit you are wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

That is the problem of taking the parable imagines in which even we were created, which God uses to reveal all things in bringing darkness to light before the judgement, as if they were literal according to the elementary thinking of men who in His eyes are children. But that is exactly what parents do, and just as He said, "It was good."

So, yes, every word is based in His truth--but it is all manifest images of what is real, rather than that which is actually real...which has yet to be revealed. Which is not to say it is not true, or even real to those who are only manifest images also--of course it would appear as such, because we don't know anything different until more is revealed, until the curtain is drawn back. Meanwhile, we are like animated characters cast in the same ink as the greater image and story and revelation of Jesus Christ. This is what Paul referred to as seeing "dimly" or "darkly" or only "in part." Which is to say--this is not from me, but from God.

As such, we are suppose to mature in our thinking, to the renewing of our mind toward heavenly things, rather than these elementary word pictures spoken to children in this world created for the purpose of make believe. He who has an ear, let him hear.

Certainly, if we argue about the backdrop and imagery--we argue like children.

Since the imagery was a Garden, then it was probably not what you think a "Garden" is. For all we know it could have been more advanced than modern technology. All we are stuck with is the image, not the complete reality.

The point is Paradise is no longer on earth, but in the firmament. Abraham was said to see it as a city, another image:

"For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

This place prepared for us, Jesus still called Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

OK. Others think the church is the people that believe in Jesus since Israel rejected Him.

Stephen in Acts 7:38 did not hold to replacement theology, if that is what you mean.

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"

The church is Christ. Always has been since Abel offered sacrifices on the alter.

Israel was the OT representative, keeper of the vineyard. Now the Gentiles are individual keepers, where there is no difference between Israel and Gentile. That point you use is from a parable. It is more along the lines of all humans are now individual priest, and not just a single family of priests handed down from generation to generation. In fact, children are not automatically included. Every individual has to make a personal decision to follow Christ.

When it comes to eschatology, many are confused about the church as a kingdom and the kingdom of Christ as well. The church is not the earthly kingdom and never has been. The church consist of those in the heavenly city. The church leaves this earth for heaven. The church will not be on earth during the 1,000 year reign contrary to popular opinion. The New Jerusalem does not come down until after the 1,000 year kingdom on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

I give up. You like denying The Scriptures so much, you'll just make up anything!

The spirit part is what the white robes are? No, per God's Word, you white robes are made up of your WORKS.

Your 'spirit' is about your "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly", both taught by Apostle Paul! The "this mortal" part that must put on "immortality" is about the soul.

Perhaps your works give your spirit a "bigger" light. People with attitude on earth, are only hallway night lights in heaven. People who are obedient on earth, shine like the sun.

The light is still put on around a physical permanent incorruptible body. The soul is still you inside a physical body inside that robe of white.

 

[Timtofly]

I suggest you leave... immediately... that Judaism church you are getting all that from. They are the ones behind the 'soul sleep' doctrines, and that is part of what you are pushing. The soul is NOT made up of material matter. Neither is our spirit.

And we mostly certainly DO have a 'spirit' inside our flesh, right now, and hereafter, unless because of rebellion we are cast into the future "lake of fire" and experience the "second death", which IS the destruction of our spirit with soul.

You clearly have NOT understood Jesus in John 3. Because you haven't, that's how I can tell you've been exposed to the Jewish traditions that Nicodemus was, and thus is why he couldn't understand Jesus either. I mean, Jesus showed it's our 'spirit' that is "born again", NOT our flesh!

Start reading more of The New Testament instead of coming to try and confuse people.

You are the one in denial. What I point out is from the NT. The only spirit one should have within is the Holy Spirit. Any other spirit is demonic activity.

 

[Timtofly]

Your false accusations aside, try to focus. Watch I will bold the word that shows the context.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2


Obviously that is talking about when He returns. Only then shall we be like Him. Just admit you are wrong.

What is revealed happens every time a soul enters Paradise. Christ is revealed at that point.

Some claim that this is when Christ is revealed to the whole world, when clearly at that point those on earth already made their choice against their son of God standing. They have decided to remain in Adam's flesh and blood.

Only those taken up into the air will be changed. That is if any of the church are still alive at that point. Now we have technology that could within hours and days kill billions.

Some posters here think God did not write the NT from that perspective. Whether right or wrong, we do live with the reality that billions could die quickly rather instead of having prolonged warfare.

Even though many were being persecuted and martyred, the reality today is very different from the expectations of first century life.

 

[dad]

Stephen in Acts 7:38 did not hold to replacement theology, if that is what you mean.

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"

The church is Christ. Always has been since Abel offered sacrifices on the alter.

Israel was the OT representative, keeper of the vineyard. Now the Gentiles are individual keepers, where there is no difference between Israel and Gentile. That point you use is from a parable. It is more along the lines of all humans are now individual priest, and not just a single family of priests handed down from generation to generation. In fact, children are not automatically included. Every individual has to make a personal decision to follow Christ.

When it comes to eschatology, many are confused about the church as a kingdom and the kingdom of Christ as well. The church is not the earthly kingdom and never has been. The church consist of those in the heavenly city. The church leaves this earth for heaven. The church will not be on earth during the 1,000 year reign contrary to popular opinion. The New Jerusalem does not come down until after the 1,000 year kingdom on earth.

Those who believe in Jesus after the Jews rejected Him are not an 'earthly kingdom'. The thing is that they are not Israel either. Israel will be here in the tribulation. Now if you want to use the word assembly, or called out ones, or church to describe the believers in the Tribulation period, that is fine. Perhaps a better word for us who have believed in Jesus since He came might be the Bride.

 

[dad]

What is revealed happens every time a soul enters Paradise. Christ is revealed at that point.

True. But for the world, He is not revealed till he comes back. That is what the verse refers to.

Some claim that this is when Christ is revealed to the whole world, when clearly at that point those on earth already made their choice against their son of God standing. They have decided to remain in Adam's flesh and blood.

When He returns to earth it does not matter what choices people made, He is seen by them. Every eye shall see Him.

Only those taken up into the air will be changed. That is if any of the church are still alive at that point.

Since we are not appointed to wrath, and the bible says we will be raised alive there will be people here.

Some posters here think God did not write the NT from that perspective. Whether right or wrong, we do live with the reality that billions could die quickly rather instead of having prolonged warfare.

Yes, and prophesy does talk of such numbers of people being killed.

 

[Timtofly]

Those who believe in Jesus after the Jews rejected Him are not an 'earthly kingdom'. The thing is that they are not Israel either. Israel will be here in the tribulation. Now if you want to use the word assembly, or called out ones, or church to describe the believers in the Tribulation period, that is fine. Perhaps a better word for us who have believed in Jesus since He came might be the Bride.

The whole point is the church was never all of Israel. Many Israelites rejected the Atonement. After the Cross the church was opened to all, not just some Gentiles here and there. There were Gentiles in the OT church. Gentiles were never excluded. They were like the masses today outside of the church. They may or may not be reached with the Gospel. They may or may not receive the Gospel after hearing the Gospel.

Yet many fail to place the Second Coming at the correct location in John's narrative. The church will not be present on earth after the 6th Seal. Christ as Prince will be present and there is no set time frame between the 6th and 7th Seal.

Those 144k are the only "saints" active from the 7th Seal to the 7th Trumpet. You can call those 144k anything you want, but they are not declared glorified, but the firstfruits (of the 1,000 year reign on earth). Just like the 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the post Cross redeemed. To me, the church are all those in Hebrews 11, like Abraham, looking for a city in heaven, made by God. At the Second Coming, that church is declared complete, glorified, and presented to the Lord God. They will forever be with the Lord God in that city. That city will come to earth after the NHNE and is called the New Jerusalem.

The part about the tribulation is that it is the final harvest. People are being removed from the earth. Not staying on the earth. All of Adam's flesh must be removed. When Revelation 7 points out the 144k, it also places the whole church in heaven. Not half the church on earth and half the church in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

True. But for the world, He is not revealed till he comes back. That is what the verse refers to.

The verse was given to the church, not the world. The majority of the world will never be considered sons of God. They will forever remain in Adam's dead flesh. John was saying that in Christ we are now, not at some future point in time. The second birth was explained in John 3. Being born from above is being restored as a son of God.

 

[dad]

The whole point is the church was never all of Israel. Many Israelites rejected the Atonement. After the Cross the church was opened to all, not just some Gentiles here and there. There were Gentiles in the OT church. Gentiles were never excluded. They were like the masses today outside of the church. They may or may not be reached with the Gospel. They may or may not receive the Gospel after hearing the Gospel.

Yet many fail to place the Second Coming at the correct location in John's narrative. The church will not be present on earth after the 6th Seal. Christ as Prince will be present and there is no set time frame between the 6th and 7th Seal.

Those 144k are the only "saints" active from the 7th Seal to the 7th Trumpet. You can call those 144k anything you want, but they are not declared glorified, but the firstfruits (of the 1,000 year reign on earth). Just like the 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the post Cross redeemed. To me, the church are all those in Hebrews 11, like Abraham, looking for a city in heaven, made by God. At the Second Coming, that church is declared complete, glorified, and presented to the Lord God. They will forever be with the Lord God in that city. That city will come to earth after the NHNE and is called the New Jerusalem.

The part about the tribulation is that it is the final harvest. People are being removed from the earth. Not staying on the earth. All of Adam's flesh must be removed. When Revelation 7 points out the 144k, it also places the whole church in heaven. Not half the church on earth and half the church in heaven.

There are also multitudes saved in that time. Not just the Jews from the 12 tribes. As for placing the church in heaven, if we call the Bride the church, that is correct. There are also plenty of saved people back on earth in that time. So if you want to call them 'Adam's flesh', well there are plenty left behind at the Rapture. Then you claim the church is here till the sixth seal. Proof?

 

[dad]

The verse was given to the church, not the world. The majority of the world will never be considered sons of God. They will forever remain in Adam's dead flesh. John was saying that in Christ we are now, not at some future point in time. The second birth was explained in John 3. Being born from above is being restored as a son of God.

The verse was about when He is revealed, so that is not just to the church, since the Rapture is before that.

 

[Timtofly]

There are also multitudes saved in that time. Not just the Jews from the 12 tribes. As for placing the church in heaven, if we call the Bride the church, that is correct. There are also plenty of saved people back on earth in that time. So if you want to call them 'Adam's flesh', well there are plenty left behind at the Rapture. Then you claim the church is here till the sixth seal. Proof?

Those remaining will live on the earth. In Matthew 25 the sheep are never said to die, yet they have to be changed out of Adam's flesh and blood. It states they are granted eternal life. That life is on earth.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

This is not a judgment placed on the church in Paradise. This is about those Christ as Prince on earth in Jerusalem just pronounced on those on earth after the Second Coming. Jesus never says, oh, but you have to suffer physically and be killed or suffer until the tribulation is over. No where does it claim they have to die or be physically resurrected. They are safe until the Resurrection in Revelation 20:4, where they join those beheaded to live on earth.

The next group are those still alive in the 7 Thunders, but we know little about them except they are the wheat and tares in Matthew 13. But that harvest Jesus explains He and the angels are present on earth at that point. That would be after the Second Coming.

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

This happens at the 6th Seal, because that is when the angels and Christ arrive. Revelation 6:13

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

This is John's symbolism about the angels:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[Timtofly]

The verse was about when He is revealed, so that is not just to the church, since the Rapture is before that.

There is not a single statement in all 66 books of the Bible that states the rapture is a separate event from the Second Coming.

That point is only conjecture.

 

[dad]

Those remaining will live on the earth.

Those remaining does not mean much when you don't believe the Rapture happened before this.

This is not a judgment placed on the church in Paradise. This is about those Christ as Prince on earth in Jerusalem just pronounced on those on earth after the Second Coming.

Just after does not mean much either when you stuff the events of the whole thousand years into a few moments.

Jesus never says, oh, but you have to suffer physically and be killed or suffer until the tribulation is over.

Speak for yourself if you plan to be here for the wrath of God.

No where does it claim they have to die or be physically resurrected. They are safe until the Resurrection in Revelation 20:4, where they join those beheaded to live on earth.

The dead in Christ will be caught into the air first. So that is bodies resurrected. Their spirit was already with Him.