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Yes, I believe that. That’s what I was saying earlier in this thread.
And there are some errors held that prevent keys to unlocking more understanding.
some of the main keys I have found that unlock more are:
regarding righteousness vs holiness
Timeframe re: end times
Men not born with eternal life in them
If you can discard errors held tightly regarding these 3, it’s amazing what begins to happen and it’s key to unlocking more understanding.
So when I read and start getting confused, I am constantly asking myself questions that are needed for dividing scripture.
I will ask - wait, is this verse talking about and dealing with righteousness or is it talking about holiness?
Or with end times I will ask - wait, is this verse concerning pretribulation, during tribulation, millennium, or post millennium?
These questions have gained me more understanding. They are keys to unlocking more understanding for me.
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Hello @MatthewG,
The spirit is breath, the breath of life, it has no substance.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Matthew, the spirit of life that God gives is not a conscious entity in itself.....it is the 'power' that animates the dust, eg, the electricity that makes the light bulb glow when it is switched on does not go anywhere when it is switched off....and the light itself just ceases to be.
The term 'soul' or 'living soul' is none other than the dust which God formed into a man animated by his spirit or breath of life......
read it here, Genesis 2:7
Hello @stunnedbygrace,
Yet, the thread is concerned with physical death, and not the state whereby the unbeliever is reckoned to be 'spiritually dead', isn't it?
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I believe that is the the soul is much more, @quietthinker
you know some people in this world look at others and think they don’t matter…
to me that is looking at Gods creation which inside of them is the soul given by God or the human spirit that is always needing help from God.
It’s like looking at people and deeming them trash I don’t like this type of thinking it’s evil to me.
you know some people in this world look at others and think they don’t matter…
to me that is looking at Gods creation which inside of them is the soul given by God or the human spirit that is always needing help from God.
It’s like looking at people and deeming them trash I don’t like this type of thinking it’s evil to me.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
God doesn't give souls to people Matthew....we are souls. Adam became a living soul....when? when God breathed into his nostrils of formed dust
the breath of life or spirit. Genesis 2:7
Hello @MatthewG,
With respect, that is your 'thinking', your 'feeling', whereas this thread is dealing with the 'facts' concerning what happens at death. Feelings and thoughts are nebulous, it is only Biblical fact that has any soundness.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The problem you are having with this Matthew is you don't understand Jewish idiom. This story of Jesus was told to make a point, so don't miss the point. It wasn't told to give us a theology on the state of the dead.
Human spirit ; soul same thing to me my brother.
God created us in his image he gave us the human spirit - soul - mind, will, emotion we have the same characteristics that God has which God has his own mind, his own will, and his own emotions (jealously).
Here is what I’ll stand on my friends.
I love God and I love you;
This is what is said in 2 Peter the Lord desires none to perish and I believe this.
“Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
II Peter 3:1-9 NKJV
God created us in his image he gave us the human spirit - soul - mind, will, emotion we have the same characteristics that God has which God has his own mind, his own will, and his own emotions (jealously).
Here is what I’ll stand on my friends.
I love God and I love you;
This is what is said in 2 Peter the Lord desires none to perish and I believe this.
“Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
II Peter 3:1-9 NKJV
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
You think our judgement of Hitler and his cohorts as being totally depraved and fiendish is somehow wrong, that they weren't evil enough? Surely even they couldn't imagine the dream of being able to torture their victims forever... Yet we grant God the attribute of righteousness and justice for doing so?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
@Matthew.....when you tell a story, let's say a joke, you might start with; there was an Englishman, an Irishman and an American...etc. Straight away your listeners now that you are telling a story (joke) and what matters is the punch line.....that's the whole purpose of the story (joke). Your listeners know immediately that you are not telling them facts about Englishmen, Irishmen and Americans....they know it's a genre for the purpose of the punch line (the point)
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You guys may believe what you desire, I believe the Bible expresses Gods will for all people to come to the knowledge of truth in His son Jesus Christ.
The Bible expresses this maybe some needed to be reminded about it.
“Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
I Timothy 2:1-4 NKJV
Some people believe that he doesn’t get what He desires.
“If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.”
I Timothy 4:6-11 NKJV
God is the saviour of all men, not just believers. But especially believers.
“Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
II Peter 3:1-9 NKJV
Also the Bible expresses living human spirits outside of the kingdom of Heaven,
““And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
Revelation 22:12-15 NKJV
So though the Bible says the soul dies; I don’t understand this but however it seems that people are living in Heaven even inside or outside of the Gate.
If you have ears to hear, my hope is you understand it’s about God and not about what we may think, it’s always going to be about faith as well on the Lord Jesus Christ,
And I’ll tell you this as well I may be wrong but when it comes to God his ways totally incomprehensible but you can see some of his willingness to have love for all people: John 3:16.
Thank you for your time and patience and you are free to believe how you will,
May the spirit of truth lead you, and may we worship God in spirit and truth,
With love in Christ,
Matthew G.
The Bible expresses this maybe some needed to be reminded about it.
“Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
I Timothy 2:1-4 NKJV
Some people believe that he doesn’t get what He desires.
“If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.”
I Timothy 4:6-11 NKJV
God is the saviour of all men, not just believers. But especially believers.
“Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
II Peter 3:1-9 NKJV
Also the Bible expresses living human spirits outside of the kingdom of Heaven,
““And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
Revelation 22:12-15 NKJV
So though the Bible says the soul dies; I don’t understand this but however it seems that people are living in Heaven even inside or outside of the Gate.
If you have ears to hear, my hope is you understand it’s about God and not about what we may think, it’s always going to be about faith as well on the Lord Jesus Christ,
And I’ll tell you this as well I may be wrong but when it comes to God his ways totally incomprehensible but you can see some of his willingness to have love for all people: John 3:16.
Thank you for your time and patience and you are free to believe how you will,
May the spirit of truth lead you, and may we worship God in spirit and truth,
With love in Christ,
Matthew G.
Hello @MatthewG,
With respect, and a great deal of love, you are like a little hedgehog who curls himself up and hides when danger threatens. You do it by surrounding yourself with words. I am sorry that you feel threatened by what you have heard from myself and from @quietthinker, but please take time to really study this subject quietly before God, and then you will know of a surety what is true.
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
With respect, and a great deal of love, you are like a little hedgehog who curls himself up and hides when danger threatens. You do it by surrounding yourself with words. I am sorry that you feel threatened by what you have heard from myself and from @quietthinker, but please take time to really study this subject quietly before God, and then you will know of a surety what is true.
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
@charity am headed to work; but sitting here thinking about the soul sinneth scripture.
Jesus paid for sin. God through Christ redeemed all souls back to himself now at this point in time. Some don’t have faith some do.
Thank you bringing that scripture to me and letting me think about it.
You all have a good day,
With love in Christ,
Matthew G
Here is where this is found
“For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
II Corinthians 5:12-21 NKJV
Charity thank you for calling me a hedgehog my favorite video game character was a hedgehog named Sonic I have him tattooed on my back left or right shoulder blade.
Jesus paid for sin. God through Christ redeemed all souls back to himself now at this point in time. Some don’t have faith some do.
Thank you bringing that scripture to me and letting me think about it.
You all have a good day,
With love in Christ,
Matthew G
Here is where this is found
“For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
II Corinthians 5:12-21 NKJV
Charity thank you for calling me a hedgehog my favorite video game character was a hedgehog named Sonic I have him tattooed on my back left or right shoulder blade.
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And THAT is what has terrified me and is what I struggle with. The outer darkness/outside the gates appears to me to be the worst of all fates. It makes annihilation a mercy in the end. Jesus said it will go better in the end for sodom than for some other men.
I think, and even hope, that there may be another key I am missing here, but it seems it is worse to do harm than to be filthy/vile.
11 Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.”
4 states of men, corresponding to 4 directions and 4 rivers that flowed outward from the garden.
Prophecy says one of the rivers will dry up. I think it corresponds to the filthy/annihilation, which leaves 3 ETERNAL destinies. So…
outer darkness for those who have done harm to others/keeping others from entering in. Religious hypocrites.
Annihilation for the filthy.
A welcoming in for the righteous.
A welcoming in with untold abundance for the holy.
I would direct you to @Episkopos for more concerning the 4 men and the 3 eternal destinies and I would direct you to him concerning understanding righteousness vs holiness. He doesn’t come in here often any more but he would eventually see a message.
I still work on a thought that there are only really 2 eternal destinies in the end and that maybe during the millennium there are the righteous and the holy who rule over them with Christ during the millennium, but that those righteous move into holiness during that time, leaving, after the millennium, only the holy and those who did great harm/outer darkness. Two ultimately eternal destinies after hell is thrown into the lake.
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bbyrd009
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“Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am deeply distressed,” replied Saul
.
well, Saul did that, right, not Yah, Who only sought to drive them out?
and my guess would be bc under the law every sin requires blood
.
So, i have a collection of these now, disputes of the Witch of Endor account, and i would say mostly that one might contemplate which assertion being made do they wish to contest? And then seek other witnesses for that assertion in Scripture, but i wouldnt be trying to make the Bible into a liar, “it’s not really Samuel” etc when the Bible plainly says it was
ya bc you know, huh? But you maybe dont yet know what your “knowing” is saying? Me, i dont know, and im completely open to a valid refute of the passage, just havent heard one yet wadr.
For that matter disregard the passage entirely, no one has still ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, there is still only One Immortal, etc right
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