Where do people go when they die?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
LOL Truth is a matter of perspective, that is correct.
'For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,
That thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings,
and mightest overcome when Thou art judged.'

(Rom 3:3)

Hello @Grailhunter,

'TRUTH IS': Our perspectives can warp and make it of none-effect, to our own detriment and that of others within our influence. So we must endeavour to view Scripture with as pure a lens as possible, setting aside all preconceptions. Yet our failure to receive truth accurately does not affect TRUTH itself. It will remain. 'Let God be true and every man a liar'.

'For the LORD is good;
His mercy is everlasting;
and His truth endureth to all generations.'

(Psa 100:5)

'The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.'

(Psa 12:6-7)


Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Last edited:

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,196
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Fortunately we are not judged according to our understanding of doctrine. However, we need to come to terms with the fact that false doctrine can directly affect the way we view God, which can impact on our faith and lead us into beliefs whereby we miss out on certain truths that help us to identify real time religious practises that reflect deception causing us to apostatize.

Hello, agree with your sentiment. Everyone should know my view personally can impact anyone who has a futurist view of the coming last days, and coming of Christ.

It can make someone decide to [apostate] in which they decide no longer to stand with Jesus. That begs to question what the hope they had was in the first place however that is subjective for the individual.

There are definite truths associated with the gospel in the last days that define whether we truly know the God in whom we claim to have faith. The mark of the beast and the seal of God are the choices we all need to make in the midst of widespread deception and apostasy. Truth matters.

Truth does matter, and something that has been brought to my attention over the past few years is the widespread belief of the return of Jesus and last days. It makes me question if the last days and return was for them then and my conclusions on these matters are related to the past.

However some simply decide to believe what ever a pastor may teach and preach to them about any given topic and my suggestion and understanding is to question anything one is taught, and ask questions and seek God over all.

The one thing that is known in Hebrews 11:6 is that it impossible to please God without faith and God is a rewarder for who diligently seek Him.

Apostasy is when a person renounces no longer standing with God. Just as though saying I no longer have faith.

Thank you,
Matthew G.
 
Last edited:

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Which language do you read your Bible in...? I gave you a German translation completed by Martin Luther close to the time of the KJV and a modern German translation from the 20th Century. Why is my comparison different than yours for someone who reads his Bible in German? [older and newer?]

I do read my Bible regularly in German, Spanish and English. I do not read Hebrew but make use of the translations provided into the languages I do understand well as lexicons and/or dictionaries when there is a need. I always talk to God when I am reading my Bible [any language or version] and allow Him time to respond... for without the Holy Spirit, how could any of us understand anything at all that He was saying?

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." John 14:26


Is that sarcasm? If so to what end are you using it?

Did you miss my point?

Then again, why should we trust the more modern English translators more than those who translated the KJV? Are they or were they not also fallible men as we are? Should not our first trust always be in the Holy Spirit leading us?

As I learned Spanish and German, I also have learned a fair amount about English as it is and as it was. When people spoke English on a regular basis similar to the way the KJV versions translates the Bible, were they not able to understand each other? Did they never communicate? Do you presume that you alone are able to understand a Bible translated into English, old English or modern English?

God has apparently blessed you with some abilities, but the abilities we have been given are hardly the most important thing in our walk with God, are they? Is not God who gave us the abilities more concerned with what we do with however much or little we have been given?

"Much is given... much is required" [see Luke 12:48 in any translation]

Is it our job to put others down or to teach them when they need and desire that one help them as did the Ethiopian eunuch? God sent him a helper and helped him. Philip was not sent to tell the eunuch that he, Philip, knew all of the answers... but to help. Winning a theology contest helps whom?

Give God the glory!
Getting at the truth is not a contest.

And the truth, the actual meaning of the psalm you quoted is not that the ungodly won’t be judged, it means they can’t stand on the day of judgment.

Do a modicum of research of the Hebrew meaning it was written in, which is how to get to the truth.

Th Bible says God has wrath to be saved from, and there is a judgment of the damned, so when you quote a verse to try and refute the whole council of scripture, the fact of what the actual meaning is of that text is important- it’s not a contest, it’s studying to shew oneself approved unto God, by rightly dividing the word, per thecNT.

Maranatha
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Actually Curtis it is, in the KJV of the Bible, hell is translated from Sheol an equal number as grave, 31x each as a matter of fact. What do you think hell is sir?
Try reading what I wrote, instead of playing definition games.

Call it whatever you want, but the scriptures i posted show unequivocally that the same everlasting fire that the damned are put in, is the place, not the grave, but the same place that was created for Satan and his angels, and angels have no bodies to sleep in the mud, and those angels are in chains there, for further proof the aren’t dirt napping, but are conscious and chained to keep them from escaping, and I showed from scripture that there are beings under the earth who speak, so aren’t sleeping in the ground.

But you’d rather play the dictionary game than actually learn the facts.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Those "under the earth" are those resurrected from their graves. No one exists alive "under the earth". Jesus never spoke of such a place. It is fictional.


That is a fictitious place created by pagan imaginations, not scripture. ”Sheol or hades” is “below” because that is where most of the dead end up...six feet under....
There is no conscious part of man that survives death. Jesus never taught about such a place.
There is no immortal soul that goes anywhere. All the dead are resurrected from the same place. (John 5:28-29)


This is the “lake of fire” which is not “Hell” either. This refers to Gehenna...a place where things and souls are “destroyed” not tortured. (Matthew 10:28)


There is confusion apparently between the diverse meanings of the word “spirit”. Context determines how it is translated and understood.

The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s holy spirit.
This confusion is created by bad translation of the scriptures from their original languages.


This is another "hell" that is mistranslated...this one is actually "tartarus".....and its not "hell" either.
This word It is found only once in the Greek scriptures.
It is described as a prison-like state involving darkness and holding the demons in reserve for judgment. They are still wreaking havoc on this earth because this is where they are confined during the time of the end. God has evicted them from heaven so they have nowhere else to go.....until Jesus locks them away in an abyss for 1,000 years. (Revelation 12:7-9; Revelation 20:1-3) No one knows what the abyss is, but it is a state of confinement like a prison for spirit beings. The only humans who become spirits are those whom Christ takes into his Kingdom.

Talk about getting all your words and terminologies all muddled up....

You know, this is done with the outer darkness too. Because a verse says there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth there and also wailing and gnashing of teeth at going into the lake of fire, people assume the outer darkness and the lake are the same place. But fire produces light and heat and darkness is no light
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Those "under the earth" are those resurrected from their graves. No one exists alive "under the earth". Jesus never spoke of such a place. It is fictional.
Oh, I see.

So your Bible is missing this, from Jesus:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Before Jesus came, and atoned for sins, there were two compartments in the heart of the earth at that time.


One compartment, called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, held all the believers who died, because no soul could go to heaven until Messiah came and atoned for sins.


It was separated by a great chasm from the torments compartment that the damned were put in, called Hell.


Jesus tells us about this in Luke 16 starting in verse 19.


When Jesus died His spirit descended into the heart of the earth, and He preached to those spirits held in captivity there, most likely telling them He is Messiah and the Son of God who died for sins.


1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and PREACHED unto the SPIRITS in PRISON.


Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


When He rose from the dead he emptied out paradise and took their spirits with them, which is why many dead people also rose and went into the city, after His resurrection.


Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION , and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Now those who die in Christ go to heaven - He moved paradise from in the earth to heaven, because He atoned for sins.


John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there.


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Soul sleep remains bogus doctrine.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,499
31,675
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Getting at the truth is not a contest.

And the truth, the actual meaning of the psalm you quoted is not that the ungodly won’t be judged, it means they can’t stand on the day of judgment.

Do a modicum of research of the Hebrew meaning it was written in, which is how to get to the truth.

Th Bible says God has wrath to be saved from, and there is a judgment of the damned, so when you quote a verse to try and refute the whole council of scripture, the fact of what the actual meaning is of that text is important- it’s not a contest, it’s studying to shew oneself approved unto God, by rightly dividing the word, per thecNT.

Maranatha
You should work on your reading comprehension skills. You are arguing against me with regard to things I did not say while making presumptions as to my meaning...

A person rightly divides truth only by means of the Holy Spirit. Failure to do that, in spite of dedicated continuous study of the original languages and the scriptures themselves itself, is likely put a person rather in the situation described by Solomon here:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

I do speak from personal experience in these things, but probably you don't want hear about that. Have a good day my friend!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brakelite

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is speaking of the "elect" "the saints" or "chosen ones"......who are these, and what is their role in heaven?
Not all Christians are of the "elect", as they pray for us.....

Colossians 1:1-4...opens with the words...."Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy our brother, 2 to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·losʹsae:. . . .
"We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love you have for all the holy ones."


So we can see here the "holy ones" are mentioned separately to the "faithful brothers in union with Christ".....so only some Christians are chosen to be "saints" or "holy ones"....but not all.


This is speaking about those 'chosen' to rule with Christ in heaven, which all of the apostles were, forming the very foundations of God's heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 21:14) The ones chosen by God for positions in the Kingdom have clearly defined roles as stated in Revelation 20:6...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

As "kings" and "priests" they have no subjects in heaven because God's kingdom is to rule over "mankind" on the earth....and these ones are to be resurrected "first", before the general resurrection takes place....these subjects will be resurrected later. (John 5:28-29)

Revelation 21:2-4...
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Can you see what God's Kingdom will accomplish? It will cleanse this earth of all wickedness and the things that cause us pain and suffering....it will take us back to the conditions God created for the first humans.....paradise...with no ageing, sickness or death.....
Isn't that something to look forward to? God’s original purpose for the earth is restored. (Isaiah 55:11)


Again, you need to clarify what the Hebrew word "soul" actually means.....it never means a disembodied spirit. The word "soul", in contrast to the way that the term is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both (Hebrew) neʹphesh and (Greek) psy·kheʹ, are used in connection with earthly creatures, and refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.
These original-language words have most often been rendered according to their meaning in each context, using them in place of such terms as “life,” “creature,” “person,” “one’s whole being,” or simply as a personal pronoun (for example, “I” for “my soul”).

So saying that a person's "soul" was returned to them, is the same as saying 'their "life" was returned to them. The human soul is mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)...just like the animals. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
Obviously the born again and saved go to be with Jesus when they leave their HOME the body, and the damned leave their home, the body, and go to hell, the jail cell the damned are kept in, awaiting judgment.

Jesus himself says that he’ll is a place of torment in the earth, in Luke.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,196
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It would be a good thing to do some research on Sheol, and Gehenna.

For me I’ll point to Jonah in the belly of the fish.

Imagine being in that place for a moment.

Thank you for your time,
Matthew G.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,267
5,331
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
'For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,
That thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings,
and mightest overcome when Thou art judged.'

(Rom 3:3)

Hello @Grailhunter,

'TRUTH IS': Our perspectives can warp and make it of none-effect, to our own detriment and that of others within our influence. So we must endeavour to view Scripture with as pure a lens as possible, setting aside all preconceptions. Yet our failure to receive truth accurately does not affect TRUTH itself. It will remain. 'Let God be true and every man a liar'.

'For the LORD is good;
His mercy is everlasting;
and His truth endureth to all generations.'

(Psa 100:5)

'The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.'

(Psa 12:6-7)


Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charity

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,271
2,350
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Oh, I see.

So your Bible is missing this, from Jesus:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Before Jesus came, and atoned for sins, there were two compartments in the heart of the earth at that time.

One compartment, called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, held all the believers who died, because no soul could go to heaven until Messiah came and atoned for sins.

It was separated by a great chasm from the torments compartment that the damned were put in, called Hell.
Oh dear.....who told you that? If you look carefully the “Rich Man and Lazarus” is a parable among many others.....it is not a story of literal individuals. Each character represents different classes of people. The rich man was not said to be wicked, just rich, uncaring and selfish. The beggar likewise was not said to be righteous, just hungry, malnourished and in need. He had to be content with the crumbs falling from the rich man’s table.

Both of these men “died” and their deaths brought about a great change in the status of each....the rich man pictured the Pharisees, and the beggar represented the “lost sheep” to whom Jesus was sent. The Pharisees did not see the ‘lost ones’ as of any value to them or God. The crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table were accidentally dropped, not thrown to the beggar in any kind of recognition of his existence. IOW the beggar was hungry because the rich man did not see the need to give him any spiritual food...he just ignored him.
Jesus said their in their “deaths”, they changed places.

The “bosom of Abraham” was the position of favour with God, which the Pharisees had claimed for themselves, but which Jesus came to reverse and offer that position of favour to those who responded to his teachings.

To suggest that this story is literal is rather ridiculous. Two compartments in the earth??? Seriously?
Heaven and hell are in speaking distance to each other? And a drop of water on a man’s finger is going to cool the tongue of a man in a blazing fire? Since the fire was creating his torment, what could this blazing fire be? Not the flames of hell, because there is no such place. The torment that the Pharisees experienced was the success of Jesus’ ministry to the ones that they despised, and his continual denunciation of them as the frauds and hypocrites that they were. Any wonder they were in torment! Their whole existence now amounted to nothing.

Now, the rich man was said to be in “hades”, not “hell” but the common grave, so in his spiritual death state, the rich man saw that the beggar was now in the favoured position that he had once claimed.

John the Baptist was the herald of the Messiah’s coming and his ministry is what brought about a change in the status of both groups. Those who accepted Jesus as the promised seed of Abraham, died to their former status and entered “the bosom of Abraham” by their acceptance of God’s Messiah. Jesus left the Pharisees in no doubt about what he and his Father thought of them. (Matthew 23; Luke 16:15)

Since the “death” experienced by both groups was not literal but symbolic, then all the details of the parable are also symbolic. What was taken away from the religious leaders, was given to the ones who responded to Jesus. Parables were illustrations, not real occurrences.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,271
2,350
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
When Jesus died His spirit descended into the heart of the earth, and He preached to those spirits held in captivity there, most likely telling them He is Messiah and the Son of God who died for sins.
Really? Let’s see what it says there.....

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and PREACHED unto the SPIRITS in PRISON.
Is this a case of reading without comprehension....seeing what you want to see rather than what is written?
In context, read it again....
“Because Christ also suffered once for our sins, the righteous on behalf of the unrighteous , that he might lead you to God . He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit , in which also he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being built, in which a few , that is eight souls , were brought safely through water . This water prefigures baptism, which now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the body but the answer of a good conscience to God — by the resurrection of Jesus Christ , who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven , all angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.” (1 Peter 3:18-22 - MOUNCE Interlinear)

Who were the “spirits” that Jesus made a proclamation to? Were these spirits in hell? No! These were the spirits (disobedient angels) who were dealt with in Noah’s day, restrained now in “Tartarus” (a state of spiritual darkness) who were now under no illusions about what fate awaited them.

You can see that Peter also likened our salvation in coming through the water of our baptism to those who were save through the water of the flood. And that Jesus after his resurrection “in the spirit” (no longer a man of flesh) returned to his former position at God’s right hand, and “all angels, authorities and powers” were “made subject to him”. So how does that sit with Jesus being God? Can God reward himself with these things? You tell me.....

For someone who said that archaic English was not easy to understand, you sure use it a lot. Modern translations are better...didn’t you say that? Opens up a whole new understanding when you read in a language you use in everyday speech...doesn’t it? Isn’t that the purpose of translation? And isn’t context important?

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

When He rose from the dead he emptied out paradise and took their spirits with them, which is why many dead people also rose and went into the city, after His resurrection.
Is that what you see written there?.....or did you fill in some gaps with what you already believe?

Again let’s read those verses in context.....
God has given his grace to each one of us measured out by the gift that is given by Christ. That’s why scripture says, When he climbed up to the heights, he captured prisoners, and he gave gifts to people. What does the phrase “he climbed up” mean if it doesn’t mean that he had first gone down into the lower regions, the earth? The one who went down is the same one who climbed up above all the heavens so that he might fill everything. He gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers. His purpose was to equip God’s people for the work of serving and building up the body of Christ.” (Ephesians 4:7-12 CEB) Paul was quoting Psalm 68:18 there.

This translation gives us a clearer picture of what Paul meant...Jesus came from heaven to “the lower regions” meaning his time on earth as a human. But upon his return to heaven, he did not leave his disciples without guidance. He gave them “gifts” in the form of men to carry on the work he started...”some as apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers. His purpose was to equip God’s people for the work of serving and building up the body of Christ.”

So you can’t just take verses out of context and make them say what you want them to say....
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,271
2,350
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Obviously the born again and saved go to be with Jesus when they leave their HOME the body, and the damned leave their home, the body, and go to hell, the jail cell the damned are kept in, awaiting judgment.

Jesus himself says that he’ll is a place of torment in the earth, in Luke.
No not obviously.....there is no place of torment outside of this life....death is the end of all conscious existence.....where does it say otherwise?

You said....
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION , and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The earthquake that occurred at the moment Jesus died was the event that brought these “saints” out of their tombs. This incident was reported only by Matthew and in passing. Would such a momentous thing not be reported by all the gospel writers and details given? The truth is, this verse is grossly misunderstood.

Read it again.....in context...
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:50-54 - ESV)

This occurred at Jesus’ death, and it would mean that the saints were raised before Jesus was....that is impossible. (John 3:13) More in keeping with the whole story as told in the scriptures, the “bodies” of these “saints” were thrown out of their tombs by the earthquake. Those who were there observing what happened are the “they” who came out of the graveyard and went to Jerusalem to “appear to many” and report what they has seen. Much more logical and no guessing.

Now those who die in Christ go to heaven - He moved paradise from in the earth to heaven, because He atoned for sins.
Scripture please....? Or did you make that up?

John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Again....what did John “see”.....was it literal or was the Revelation given in spiritual signs? John was transported to “the Lord’s day” the time we are living in now.
What does the word “soul” mean here? It doesn’t mean “spirits”....it is the “lives” lost...executed because of their discipleship. Their blood was crying out to God for justice just like Able’s. (Genesis 4:10)

Soul sleep remains bogus doctrine.
The only thing that is bogus is your understanding of scripture....the Bible is clear, that the dead are not alive....death is the opposite of life, not the continuation of it. The dead are not conscious or active.

“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 - ESV)

Argue with Solomon.....
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,267
5,331
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh dear.....who told you that? If you look carefully the “Rich Man and Lazarus” is a parable among many others.....it is not a story of literal individuals. Each character represents different classes of people. The rich man was not said to be wicked, just rich, uncaring and selfish. The beggar likewise was not said to be righteous, just hungry, malnourished and in need. He had to be content with the crumbs falling from the rich man’s table.

Both of these men “died” and their deaths brought about a great change in the status of each....the rich man pictured the Pharisees, and the beggar represented the “lost sheep” to whom Jesus was sent. The Pharisees did not see the ‘lost ones’ as of any value to them or God. The crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table were accidentally dropped, not thrown to the beggar in any kind of recognition of his existence. IOW the beggar was hungry because the rich man did not see the need to give him any spiritual food...he just ignored him.
Jesus said their in their “deaths”, they changed places.

The “bosom of Abraham” was the position of favour with God, which the Pharisees had claimed for themselves, but which Jesus came to reverse and offer that position of favour to those who responded to his teachings.

To suggest that this story is literal is rather ridiculous. Two compartments in the earth??? Seriously?
Heaven and hell are in speaking distance to each other? And a drop of water on a man’s finger is going to cool the tongue of a man in a blazing fire? Since the fire was creating his torment, what could this blazing fire be? Not the flames of hell, because there is no such place. The torment that the Pharisees experienced was the success of Jesus’ ministry to the ones that they despised, and his continual denunciation of them as the frauds and hypocrites that they were. Any wonder they were in torment! Their whole existence now amounted to nothing.

Now, the rich man was said to be in “hades”, not “hell” but the common grave, so in his spiritual death state, the rich man saw that the beggar was now in the favoured position that he had once claimed.

John the Baptist was the herald of the Messiah’s coming and his ministry is what brought about a change in the status of both groups. Those who accepted Jesus as the promised seed of Abraham, died to their former status and entered “the bosom of Abraham” by their acceptance of God’s Messiah. Jesus left the Pharisees in no doubt about what he and his Father thought of them. (Matthew 23; Luke 16:15)

Since the “death” experienced by both groups was not literal but symbolic, then all the details of the parable are also symbolic. What was taken away from the religious leaders, was given to the ones who responded to Jesus. Parables were illustrations, not real occurrences.

References to Hell….Hades as torment by fire in the New Testament. Keep in mind we have already discuss the word issues with Hell and Hades. We are looking to understand the message that Christ and the Apostles are stating. What do these scriptures mean? What are they trying to convey? In every way possible they warned of eternal punishment for those that are evildoers. They worded it in different ways but the central theme is torment by fire. Is it really fire? Did they choose fire because it was the worst thing they could describe. In the reality of it all, is Hell much worse than fire?

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Matthew 8:12 While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Matthew 24:51 And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:45 And if your foot offend you, cut if off: it is better to you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

2nd Peter For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 1:18 And the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15--- 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,196
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh dear.....who told you that? If you look carefully the “Rich Man and Lazarus” is a parable among many others.....it is not a story of literal individuals. Each character represents different classes of people. The rich man was not said to be wicked, just rich, uncaring and selfish. The beggar likewise was not said to be righteous, just hungry, malnourished and in need. He had to be content with the crumbs falling from the rich man’s table.

Both of these men “died” and their deaths brought about a great change in the status of each....the rich man pictured the Pharisees, and the beggar represented the “lost sheep” to whom Jesus was sent. The Pharisees did not see the ‘lost ones’ as of any value to them or God. The crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table were accidentally dropped, not thrown to the beggar in any kind of recognition of his existence. IOW the beggar was hungry because the rich man did not see the need to give him any spiritual food...he just ignored him.
Jesus said their in their “deaths”, they changed places.

The “bosom of Abraham” was the position of favour with God, which the Pharisees had claimed for themselves, but which Jesus came to reverse and offer that position of favour to those who responded to his teachings.

To suggest that this story is literal is rather ridiculous. Two compartments in the earth??? Seriously?
Heaven and hell are in speaking distance to each other? And a drop of water on a man’s finger is going to cool the tongue of a man in a blazing fire? Since the fire was creating his torment, what could this blazing fire be? Not the flames of hell, because there is no such place. The torment that the Pharisees experienced was the success of Jesus’ ministry to the ones that they despised, and his continual denunciation of them as the frauds and hypocrites that they were. Any wonder they were in torment! Their whole existence now amounted to nothing.

Now, the rich man was said to be in “hades”, not “hell” but the common grave, so in his spiritual death state, the rich man saw that the beggar was now in the favoured position that he had once claimed.

John the Baptist was the herald of the Messiah’s coming and his ministry is what brought about a change in the status of both groups. Those who accepted Jesus as the promised seed of Abraham, died to their former status and entered “the bosom of Abraham” by their acceptance of God’s Messiah. Jesus left the Pharisees in no doubt about what he and his Father thought of them. (Matthew 23; Luke 16:15)

Since the “death” experienced by both groups was not literal but symbolic, then all the details of the parable are also symbolic. What was taken away from the religious leaders, was given to the ones who responded to Jesus. Parables were illustrations, not real occurrences.

Interesting insights, Aunty. Thank you for sharing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aunty Jane

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,271
2,350
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
References to Hell….Hades as torment by fire in the New Testament. Keep in mind we have already discuss the word issues with Hell and Hades. We are looking to understand the message that Christ and the Apostles are stating. What do these scriptures mean? What are they trying to convey? In every way possible they warned of eternal punishment for those that are evildoers. They worded it in different ways but the central theme is torment by fire. Is it really fire? Did they choose fire because it was the worst thing they could describe. In the reality of it all, is Hell much worse than fire?

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Matthew 8:12 While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Matthew 24:51 And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:45 And if your foot offend you, cut if off: it is better to you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

2nd Peter For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 1:18 And the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15--- 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
And still you fail to acknowledge the difference between "hades"..."Gehenna"...and "the lake of fire"....until you learn to put a hose on hell you will continue to paint God in the worst possible light, and he will not take kindly to those who bring his name into disrepute....breaking the third Commandment...(Exodus 20:7)

By continuing to promote satanic lies, those who believe such things show that they do not know the God and Father of Jesus Christ at all.
The God of the Bible tortures no one forever for a short lifetime of sin.....there is no point and no need. It flies in the face of his perfect justice.
Death was the highest penalty under God's Law.....not torture, not incarceration....just removal from life. The gift of life was conditional and both humans and rebel spirits abused it....so the gift is withdrawn. Simple. No immortal souls and no inventing places where they have to go....

Life or death were the only two options on the table.....the rest was made up by the "weeds".
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
Status
Not open for further replies.