Where is the New Jerusalem?

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CoreIssue

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Hi, I understand luo. But then there is no place found for them. Are you thinking that the elements are still somewhere waiting for reconstruction?

From Peter, the elements being combusted are loosed, I believe is how it goes. To me, this seems less solid an argument for retention of matter, while "no place found for them" seems a stronger argument for the anihilation of matter.

But I wouldn't be too dogmatic, like I said, just how I think of it, and I could just the same argue for a "resurrected creation". But I think that it will be a new creation that has never known nor ever will know the taint or stain of sin.

Much love!
mark

Revelation 12

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

The Bible says Angels have their own estates.

When they were defeated in the rebellion bid lost them.

St. King the accuser before the throne and the other fallen Angels were chained in the pit.

Remember, the old archaic English does not mean what it said in the original order today.

You want to get rid of a lot of the confusion, cross-reference the NIV and NASB.
 

Willie T

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"Elements" That's an interesting word. What do you think that word meant to Biblical people? Did they understand anything about the Periodic Table?

I tried to look up the word in the Bible. Some guys who say they are smart, wrote that these 77 verses all spoke about ELEMENTS:
What Does the Bible Say About Elements?
And now I know a lot less than I thought I knew before.
 
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CoreIssue

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"Elements" That's an interesting word. What do you think that word meant to Biblical people? Did they understand anything about the Periodic Table?

I tried to look up the word in the Bible. Some guys who say they are smart, wrote that these 77 verses spoke about ELEMENTS:
What Does the Bible Say About Elements?
And now I know a lot less than I thought I knew before.

The Greek word means the basic component something is made up. Basic building block.

The ancients knew more about metals and other materials than many think they did.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number:
4747 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
stoicei'on from a presumed derivative of the base of (4748)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Stoicheion 7:670,1087
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
stoy-khi'-on Noun Neuter
Definition
  1. any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
    1. the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
    2. the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
    3. the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
    4. the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
      1. i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry
 

Lady Crosstalk

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Can you give an explanation as to why you are going to need a structure to live in?

And "No" I do not see myself "entombed" in anything. (You may notice that I did not include myself in that post.) I do not, in any way, shape, or form think "The New Jerusalem" is a structural city of any kind. I think it is us, God's church...… and just as I do not see the Book of Revelation as a fortune cookie tale of the future, I see the New Jerusalem already existing, just as I believe it has from the day Jesus established His kingdom here on Earth 2,000 years ago.


Nah, Jesus told His disciples on the night that He died that He was going to "prepare a place" for them. That place is more than likely, the New Jerusalem.

The Jewish marriage symbolism is very strong in that section of the Gospel of John (chapter 14). The custom in Jesus' day was to have a betrothal ceremony with wine. At that time, came the formal signing of the ketubah--the marriage covenant which set out the provisions that the Bridegroom would settle on the Bride. Her role was to accept or reject the offer. It was a binding contract and could only be broken through a formal divorce. The Bridegroom would drink a toast to the Bride and promise her that he would drink it again in his father's house, after the Bridegroom had prepared a place for her on his father's estate. He would actually say, "When everything is ready, I will come and get you so that you will always be with me where I am." Before leaving, the Bridegroom would give a gift to the father of the Bride--the mohar. In Jesus' day, it was said to be a "bride price" and she would then be promised a dowry by her father, to be used to furnish her new home. (Jesus said that he was "giving the gift of peace of mind and heart". John 14:27). Then the Bridegroom would go away to his father's house/estate, and prepare/build a place for himself and his new bride, waiting for the day when his father would give him permission to go fetch his bride. The Bridegroom could stay away for as long as two years, even preparing additional delights for the day when his Bride would arrive at her new home. During that time, the Bride would wait with her lamp lit every evening until the Bridegroom would arrive with a shout--often in the middle of the night, so that the Bridegroom could "steal" her away. She and her maids, carrying their lamps, would go out to greet him and his groomsmen. They would then form a procession to the house/estate of the Bridegroom's father. It was there that the Marriage Supper was held with much feasting and drinking of wine. The Bridegroom and the Bride would be in seclusion, often for seven days while the friends of the Bridegroom would conduct the banquet. On the last day of the feast, the bridal couple would emerge from the bridal chamber to the delight and congratulations from the wedding guests.
 
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Willie T

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The Greek word means the basic component something is made up. Basic building block.

The ancients knew more about metals and other materials than many think they did.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4747 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
stoicei'on from a presumed derivative of the base of (
4748)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Stoicheion 7:670,1087
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
stoy-khi'-on Noun Neuter

Definition
  1. any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
    1. the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
    2. the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
    3. the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
    4. the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
      1. i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

Oh, you don't know, either? Thanks anyway.
 
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marks

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Revelation 12

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

The Bible says Angels have their own estates.

When they were defeated in the rebellion bid lost them.

St. King the accuser before the throne and the other fallen Angels were chained in the pit.

Remember, the old archaic English does not mean what it said in the original order today.

You want to get rid of a lot of the confusion, cross-reference the NIV and NASB.

Actually I have about 25 different translations, I commonly use about 5 or 6 or so, including a couple of interlinears. The deeper I want to look, the more translations I check. I never seem to grab the NIV though . . .

NASB I like a lot.

I like the KJV a lot, but you do need to know the King's English! :) JP Green LITV, Young's, Interlinear Scripture Analyzer, NASB, NLT, NKJV, these are my "go to's".

At the end of the day, the more literal the translation, the better to me. But the NLT has good use too, while still being less literal.

Regarding the "angels who kept not their first estate", I don't think this means like a mansion or plantation, more like their first state of being. The word used there is "archen", for "first" or "chief", and Jude goes on the explain that they didn't keep their beginning (if you will), but left their oiketerion, a word used only one other place, in 2 Corinthians 5, referring to our celestial body.

Much love!
mark
 

marks

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"Elements" That's an interesting word. What do you think that word meant to Biblical people? Did they understand anything about the Periodic Table?

I tried to look up the word in the Bible. Some guys who say they are smart, wrote that these 77 verses all spoke about ELEMENTS:
What Does the Bible Say About Elements?
And now I know a lot less than I thought I knew before.
Hi Willie,

Simply stated, the word refers to the most basic building units of whatever you are talking about. The stoicheion are the letters in this sentence. They are the wood shapes and bags of screws that slide out of the Ikea box.

I don't know how much they knew, but it just means the basic parts, whatever they may be.

There. I hope I didn't just dig you deeper!

Much love my friend!

Mark
 
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Helen

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I am beginning to agree with the disappointed observation you made concerning this place several days ago.

I thought it had picked up a bit...not so much nasty bickering as earlier.
Times and seasons Willie :)
 
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CoreIssue

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Nah, Jesus told His disciples on the night that He died that He was going to "prepare a place" for them. That place is more than likely, the New Jerusalem.

The Jewish marriage symbolism is very strong in that section of the Gospel of John (chapter 14). The custom in Jesus' day was to have a betrothal ceremony with wine during the formal signing of the ketubah--the marriage contract which set out the provisions that the Bridegroom would settle on the Bride. Her role was to accept or reject the offer. It was a binding contract and could only be broken through a formal divorce. The Bridegroom would drink a toast to the Bride and promise her that he would drink it again in his father's house, after the Bridegroom had prepared a place for her on his father's estate. He would actually say, "When everything is ready, I will come and get you so that you will always be with me where I am." Before leaving, the Bridegroom would give a gift to the father of the Bride--the mohar. In Jesus' day, it was said to be a "bride price" and she would then be promised a dowry by her father, to be used to furnish her new home. (Jesus said that he was "giving the gift of peace of mind and heart". John 14:27). Then the Bridegroom would go away to his father's house/estate, and prepare/build a place for himself and his new bride, waiting for the day when his father would give the son permission to go fetch his bride. The Bridegroom could stay away for as long as two years, even preparing additional delights for the day when his Bride would arrive at her new home. During that time, the Bride would wait with her lamp lit every evening until the Bridegroom would arrive with a shout--often in the middle of the night, so that the Bridegroom could "steal" her away. She and her maids, carrying their lamps, would go out to greet him and his groomsmen. They would then form a procession to the house/estate of the Bridegroom's father. It was there that the Marriage Supper was held with much feasting and drinking of wine. The Bridegroom and the Bride would be in seclusion, often for seven days while the friends of the Bridegroom would conduct the banquet and on the last day of the feast, emerge from the bridal chamber to the delight and congratulations from the wedding guests.

Marriage Supper of the Lamb
 
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brakelite

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My view is that a sufficient amount of suffering will occupy a person's attention to the point that it's all they can think about
And you think this was always plan 'A' when it comes to God's solution to the sin problem? What happened to the "wages of sin is death" solution?
 

marks

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And you think this was always plan 'A' when it comes to God's solution to the sin problem? What happened to the "wages of sin is death" solution?

Plan A, I'm not sure what that means when you are talking about God.

But just the same, all sinners are dead, and those who never repent will remain dead, and will even die a second death, being tossed into the Lake of Fire.

The wages of sin are death.

Much love!
Mark
 
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Willie T

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Hi Willie,

Simply stated, the word refers to the most basic building units of whatever you are talking about. The stoicheion are the letters in this sentence. They are the wood shapes and bags of screws that slide out of the Ikea box.

I don't know how much they knew, but it just means the basic parts, whatever they may be.

There. I hope I didn't just dig you deeper!

Much love my friend!

Mark
That's pretty much the way I understand it.
 

ScottA

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In more and more threads we are seeing people claiming the New the current Jerusalem is on this earth. Some saying it is just the current Jerusalem resurrected, glorified or just renovated.

Others try to turn it into a spiritual place, nothing physical.

So what does the Bible say?

Revelation 21

That eliminates it being on this earth and being the current Jerusalem.

Clearly states it is currently in heaven.

Remember, when Christ ascended he said he was going to prepare a place for us. Which currently eliminates it has always existed.

And the wedding supper of the Lamb eliminates the idea it is already occupied.


Future tense. Not a current reality.

We also see that because God and Christ will dwell with us there is no temple in the new Jerusalem. Why should there be when they are right there?

Again, this Earth is gone and all this is on the new earth.

Spirits do not thirst. They do not need that river water and fruit from the trees of life in the new Jerusalem.

Glorified saints will be flesh. Flesh can enjoy food and water. Spirits do not.
Spirits do not thirst. They do not need that river water and fruit from the trees of life in the new Jerusalem.

First resurrection saints.

Second resurrection damned.

It means eternal separation from God, not annihilation. Eternity in the lake. No universal salvation.



A place of beauty we cannot begin to imagine.

The new earth has no sun and no moon. No night.

Gates forever open which I believe means we can enjoy and explore the universe.
Yet another volume of errors (in red).
 
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brakelite

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and will even die a second death, being tossed into the Lake of Fire.
And yet according to the popular theology of the times, it isn't really death at all is it. It is some form of living reality where pain and sorrow are felt to the nth degree, far beyond any human capacity to endure and remain alive, so a supernatural power keeps these folk from actually dying so that they may endure the extreme agony of it without it overpowering them altogether. Personally, I don't see this as being very different to the gift of eternal life granted the redeemed. Different address...different emotions...different senses being awakened...but a special gift nevertheless that circumvents death rather than imposing it.
This kind of 'death' that is supposedly the wages of sin, is therefore euphemistically called 'separation'. Yet I have had no-one adequately explain to me how separation from the only true source of life, can still result in anything continuing to live. So folk have to resort to the old 'go-to' default standby lie that souls/spirits are in fact naturally immortal...that they cannot die. Despite the clear declaration of scripture that God is Spirit, and only He has immortality, thus the only immortal spirit.
There is only one solution to the contradictory and self-defeating arguments in support of eternal torment and it is stated many times in scripture, and is set out by the Spirit of God who inspired the prophets and apostles who wrote the Bible as a direct solution to the sin problem and the direct opposite to eternal life as granted the saints...Adam and Eve were warned what that would be, and Satan lied by telling them that God was lying and they could not die....the wages of sin is death. To the whole person, because the whole person sinned.
The only way
those who are dead in their sins to die a second death, is to be resurrected to life. This is called the resurrection to damnation. That brief experience of life for the sinners of all ages, brings them to a point of utter futility and desperation as they agree with Satan that their only chance of surviving the coming final execution of the sentence passed in judgement upon them, is to attack the city and take over the throne. Madness, finally confirming to all the universe the crazed state of mind of both the devil, his angels, and their myriad of followers who populate the planet today, an irreconcilable rebellious hatred of God, His laws, and everything He stands for. Destruction, permanent and forming the "final solution" if you will, the "everlasting punishment" (not punishing) spoken of throughout scripture in the lake of fire where they are 'consumed', where the 'perish' and are turned to ashes in the sight of all within the city who have no doubts or qualms as to God's justice.

Sorry, I do rant on somewhat when speaking about this topic. I am passionately so opposed to the whole concept of 'eternal torment'. I think the idea is the ultimate insult and misrepresentation of the character of God. We rightly condemn earthly rulers who torture their victims for information. We are fully justified in condemning such as Hitler's associates in their brutality in their treatment of prisoners of war and his approval and participation re the numerous victims of the genocide that unfolded revealing his "final solution'. The same could be said of the brutality of imperial Rome...the inquisitions...ISIS...Pol Pot...Stalin...any number of dictators and despots who have ruled the planet in the mast 6000 years or so, and whose evil deeds pale into insignificance compared to what we claim as "justice' in eternal torment because it is God who is doing it. What dictators couldn't even hope to accomplish in the wildest dreams, God is seen as doing so to satisfy , no, it cannot satisfy anything if it never ends. Not even justice. So it comes down to God doing it for what? If it never satisfies justice, what does it accomplish?
 

CoreIssue

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And yet according to the popular theology of the times, it isn't really death at all is it. It is some form of living reality where pain and sorrow are felt to the nth degree, far beyond any human capacity to endure and remain alive, so a supernatural power keeps these folk from actually dying so that they may endure the extreme agony of it without it overpowering them altogether. Personally, I don't see this as being very different to the gift of eternal life granted the redeemed. Different address...different emotions...different senses being awakened...but a special gift nevertheless that circumvents death rather than imposing it.
This kind of 'death' that is supposedly the wages of sin, is therefore euphemistically called 'separation'. Yet I have had no-one adequately explain to me how separation from the only true source of life, can still result in anything continuing to live. So folk have to resort to the old 'go-to' default standby lie that souls/spirits are in fact naturally immortal...that they cannot die. Despite the clear declaration of scripture that God is Spirit, and only He has immortality, thus the only immortal spirit.
There is only one solution to the contradictory and self-defeating arguments in support of eternal torment and it is stated many times in scripture, and is set out by the Spirit of God who inspired the prophets and apostles who wrote the Bible as a direct solution to the sin problem and the direct opposite to eternal life as granted the saints...Adam and Eve were warned what that would be, and Satan lied by telling them that God was lying and they could not die....the wages of sin is death. To the whole person, because the whole person sinned.
The only way
those who are dead in their sins to die a second death, is to be resurrected to life. This is called the resurrection to damnation. That brief experience of life for the sinners of all ages, brings them to a point of utter futility and desperation as they agree with Satan that their only chance of surviving the coming final execution of the sentence passed in judgement upon them, is to attack the city and take over the throne. Madness, finally confirming to all the universe the crazed state of mind of both the devil, his angels, and their myriad of followers who populate the planet today, an irreconcilable rebellious hatred of God, His laws, and everything He stands for. Destruction, permanent and forming the "final solution" if you will, the "everlasting punishment" (not punishing) spoken of throughout scripture in the lake of fire where they are 'consumed', where the 'perish' and are turned to ashes in the sight of all within the city who have no doubts or qualms as to God's justice.

Sorry, I do rant on somewhat when speaking about this topic. I am passionately so opposed to the whole concept of 'eternal torment'. I think the idea is the ultimate insult and misrepresentation of the character of God. We rightly condemn earthly rulers who torture their victims for information. We are fully justified in condemning such as Hitler's associates in their brutality in their treatment of prisoners of war and his approval and participation re the numerous victims of the genocide that unfolded revealing his "final solution'. The same could be said of the brutality of imperial Rome...the inquisitions...ISIS...Pol Pot...Stalin...any number of dictators and despots who have ruled the planet in the mast 6000 years or so, and whose evil deeds pale into insignificance compared to what we claim as "justice' in eternal torment because it is God who is doing it. What dictators couldn't even hope to accomplish in the wildest dreams, God is seen as doing so to satisfy , no, it cannot satisfy anything if it never ends. Not even justice. So it comes down to God doing it for what? If it never satisfies justice, what does it accomplish?

Second death is eternal separation from God.

There is no such thing as annihlation.

The SDA teach it but it is false. Just as is sanctuary judgment.

Ellen G White is a false prophet.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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Second death is eternal separation from God.

There is no such thing as annihlation.

The SDA teach it but it is false. Just as is sanctuary judgment.

Ellen G White is a false prophet.

I used to believe in annihilation of all but the Beast, False Prophet, Satan and those who take the Mark of the Beast, because those are the only ones who Scripture mentions as being in eternal torment (I know--"argument from silence" is a poor argument). A supporting passage I used to think pertinent is that Jesus told us to "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna".

But, then one day, I realized that those who are not in the First Resurrection to life will be resurrected in the Second Resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgment. Those who are resurrected cannot die. (Luke 20:36) Therefore, eternal punishment--eternal destruction of body and soul. Mortal death carries some period of suffering but it is trivial compared to the unending suffering of eternal destruction.
 
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brakelite

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Second death is eternal separation from God.

There is no such thing as annihlation.

The SDA teach it but it is false. Just as is sanctuary judgment.

Ellen G White is a false prophet.
Mmm so you say. But like I said in my post which you quoted, although people claim that death is eternal separation they don't explain... Cannot explain, where the scriptures actually say that, not explain how any separation from the only source of life cannot result in death? Real death. Not the imaginary version that you say actually means eternal life. Why is it that Christians can be so confused that in order to substantiate their argument they have to make life and death mean the same thing? How is it that language at its most basic form becomes meaningless when people want to support that which plain language contradicts?