Who Do You Worship?

[Matthias]

There is little history between @Nancy and myself. But a lot of interchange with others on this topic.
You see, I believe that the devil counts on what seems to be the truth.....he is a master deceiver after all. (He invented propaganda) So there is nothing in those “insurmountable obstacles” that are not open to deeper investigation. Lazy “Christians" will not dig for the hidden treasure because they are comfortable with the convenient lie, and fear what an inconvenient truth might uncover, so they find their own reasons for rejecting anything that will upset the status quo.


Many have done so and the hours it has taken me to respond has usually resulted in what you see on this thread.
I take hours to post my responses because I care about the truth.


Been there, done that, literally hundreds of times....but if you wish I will gladly respond to every point, based on my own extensive research.


An unexamined faith is not worth having IMO. If we don’t know what we believe and why we believe it, or if we accept something at face value because the majority do, then we are not following the example of Jesus’ first disciples.

The majority never have the truth...(Matthew 7:13-14) the devil controls the majority and always has. (1 John 5:19) His propaganda has always swayed the minds and hearts of those he could deceive. Only Jehovah, by his spirit, can open the mind and heart to receive his truth. The happily deceived, he leaves to their favored delusions.

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. . . .Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion [apostasy] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. . . .For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3,6-7,9-12 - ESV)


Your wish is my command.....


It is not in my nature to leave stones unturned. I will keep digging until I get to the bottom of any issue.


No one is perfect. I am a researcher.....I will not put a subject in the “too hard basket” if I can keep digging to find the truth....or should I say what I believe is the truth.....i.e. what satisfies my quest to find the truth, (as it fits in with the entirety of scripture) no matter how inconvenient I may once have thought it was. (I too used to believe in the trinity because it was taught by the church in which my parents raised me.) But my God-given sense of logic would not allow me to have unanswered questions. When the church could not explain its own teachings, I went looking elsewhere for the answers. The Bible had all the answers but I needed help to find them, outside of the ministers who themselves had been indoctrinated by their own institutions. (Just like the Pharisees) Their scriptures were not in error, but their interpretation had been skewed by wicked men centuries ago, led by the devil to obscure and complicate simple truth.

I refer to Daniel’s prophesy on “the time of the end” where he tells us that only now, (when we are actually living in this time period) would we understand what he wrote....and that “knowledge would become abundant” at this time (Daniel 12:4).....today we have more research resources at our disposal than at any other time in history. No one has an excuse for ignorance, because we are living in a time that parallels that of Noah’s day. (Matthew 24:37-39) We too are in a judgment period, where our choices to listen to God’s servants and respond to their message ...these are trying to tell people what is about to happen, but it will again fall on deaf ears. (Matthew 24:14)

Those Jews who lived in the first century were expecting their Messiah, based on Daniel’s prophesy, but because his identity had been obscured by the religious leaders, the majority dismissed him.....their hearts and minds were corrupted to such an extent that they not only approved of Christ's murder, but they actually cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25)

So having said all that I will gladly provide what you request FWIW.....
I will address each point, but it may take me a while.....watch this space...

I’ve just read and responded to a post from someone who believes that I’ve demanded that members of the forum must believe my opinions. I haven’t, and the thought never entered my mind. Even if I could do it, I wouldn’t.

I appreciate that you’ve characterized my post to you as containing a request. I welcome and encourage your response to the OP but I don’t demand it. I have some questions but will hold them until after I read what you post.

The one thing that I’ve requested and still hope to receive a response to from you is regarding my proclivity to read works written by trinitarian authors. To the best of my recollection, I’ve never received feedback about it from a JW. I’m just curious. If you’d rather not comment on it, that’s fine.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The one thing that I’ve requested and still hope to receive a response to from you is regarding my proclivity to read works written by trinitarian authors. To the best of my recollection, I’ve never received feedback about it from a JW. I’m just curious. If you’d rather not comment on it, that’s fine.

I am not the least concerned about what you read Mattias, because that is up to you.....what did you want a response to?
If there is something that needs addressing, a simple and direct request is all that is needed. To me a request is not the same as a demand....

I don't get rattled easily...

 

[Matthias]

I am not the least concerned about what you read Mattias, because that is up to you.....what did you want a response to?

Your thoughts, if any, concerning why you think I choose to read them.

If there is something that needs addressing, a simple and direct request is all that is needed. To me a request is not the same as a demand....

I don't get rattled easily...

My best friend in Junior High School was a JW. I’ve long since lost contact with him but still to this day I have several of the JW publications he gave me in my personal library. He was kind, gentle, and approachable about what he believed and why he believed it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your thoughts, if any, concerning why you think I choose to read them.

Since I really know nothing about you, I cannot really answer that question. Perhaps you can volunteer why you believe its important....?
If I ever read things from a trinitarian source, I immediately recall all the research I have done and see immediately where their errors occur. It always reinforces my beliefs.
You may have a very different reason....?

My best friend in Junior High School was a JW. I’ve long since lost contact with him but still to this day I have several of the JW publications he gave me in my personal library. He was kind, gentle, and approachable about what he believed and why he believed it.

I am glad to hear that Mattias. I will guess that he remembers you with fondness as well.

The publications he gave you will be outdated now as we are constantly researching and refining our understanding about many Bible topics.
We are not stagnant in our beliefs, but ready and willing to alter our stance on something as new understanding sheds more light on the path. (Proverbs 4:18)

In our humble beginnings we believed and practiced things that we would now not touch with a barge pole. Constant research and understanding of original language words and the origins of beliefs held for centuries in Christendom, were slowly identified, dismantled and discarded.

Like it says in Daniel 12:10 about our day...."Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand."

The "cleansing" meant that God's worship had been sullied....the "whitening" meant that staining had occurred...and "refining" meant that impurities had crept in and needed removing. We discovered over many decades just how much spiritual 'filth' had accumulated in Christendom over hundreds of years. It wasn't going to vanish overnight, and it was a long and at times arduous process, but one that brought spiritual liberation.
We can see clearly why the "wicked" fail to understand or 'have insight', because they will not 'cleanse, whiten or refine' their worship which has remained basically unchanged since the foretold apostasy began. All they have done is perpetuate the lies that they have been told all their lives.

We finally understood what Jesus meant when he said...“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:31-32) Its a freedom that has to be experienced....its hard to describe.

 

[Dropship]

Someone mentioned JW's, so if there are any here perhaps they'd be kind enough to enlighten me by explaining these beliefs, as I'd honestly like to know-

 

[Aunty Jane]

Someone mentioned JW's, so if there are any here perhaps they'd be kind enough to enlighten me by explaining these beliefs, as I'd honestly like to know-

Glad to oblige.....

Christmas is pagan to its bootstraps, and has no place in a Christian's life if we take the words of the apostle Paul seriously....?
2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”
Paul was here quoting OT scripture. We are not to touch what is spiritually "unclean" in God's sight....and don't get me started about that fat jolly gentleman in the red suit....lying to children is something God would never sanction. Christmas is nothing but a commercial greedfest.

This is what some reliable sources say about Christmas....
“The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of N[ew] T[estament] origin. The day of Christ’s birth cannot be ascertained from the N. T., or, indeed, from any other source. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity.”—Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by McClintock and Strong.

“Inexplicable though it seems, the date of Christ’s birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

If Christmas was important for Christians, wouldn't Jesus or his disciples have mentioned it? There is not even a hint that the birth of Christ was ever celebrated by his disciples. The reason being that it is impossible to separate Christmas from its pagan origins. The Romans’ favorite festival was Saturnalia, which began on December 17 and ended with the ‘birthday of the unconquered sun’ (Natalis solis invicti) on December 25. They carried on the very same customs as there are today. The merry-making, feasting, gift giving and in the Nordic countries, yule logs and the decorating of evergreen trees....all seen in the ancient pagan celebrations, but never in original Christianity.

Since the date of Jesus' birth is not even mentioned in the Bible, why choose a pagan Roman holiday to honor Christ? It was because of the Roman Catholic church bringing all their favorite pagan celebrations into the new state religion, which was a disgusting mix of paganism covered over with a thin Christian label.

Easter is also a most unchristian celebration. The word "Easter" is not of Biblical origin because this is the name of an ancient fertility goddess whose emblems were rabbits and eggs.
Appreciating the enormous gift that Christ gave us in sacrificing his life for us, we hold a memorial of that anniversary each year as Jesus commanded....but nowhere was there a command to celebrate his resurrection, especially not by incorporating a pagan festival in honor of this false goddess. They did not even change the name. I find that disgusting TBH.

Birthdays have a similar reason to avoid them. The ancient Jews did not celebrate birthdays which is why the date of Jesus' birth is not recorded.
These celebrations were connected to astrology and pagan practices in ancient times and were therefore avoided by God's worshippers.
The date of a child's birth was for the casting of horoscopes, which foretold a child's future....something that was against God's law. The candles on the birthday cake were supposed to ward off evil spirits. The Birthday wishes also were for the same reason.
The Canaanites were practicers of these things which were connected to spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) God's people were warned not to imitate them.

The cross pre-dates Christianity as a religious symbol, by centuries. It has unsavory origins, connected with phallic worship.
The Egyptian ankh cross was called the symbol of life because it depicted human copulation.
There is no cross mentioned in the Bible. The instrument upon which Christ met his death was a "stauros", which simply means an upright stake.

Regardless of what configuration it took, there is a command not to "make" images of anything related to our worship. (Exodus 20:4-5) The cross is an image and we will not participate in idolatry.

Blood transfusions are an emotive topic but one we have stuck to for many decades because God's law on blood was specific. (Leviticus 17:10-12)
We are not to consume blood in any manner. Obviously blood transfusions were not around when the Bible was written but consuming blood by mouth or by needle is still taking it into your body. Blood is sacred to God and to him is the very symbol of life. We are not to misuse it.
Today there are not many issues over blood because the medical profession now recognizes that blood transfusion is not the safe and effective procedure it was once thought to be. They have actually found that the recovery rate among their JW patients was so good that now it is more standard practice not to use it. There are many alternative procedures these days where blood is unnecessary.

Churches? These are merely buildings....but it is what is taught in these buildings that is the problem....and where the teachers in those buildings get their training.
The "church" in the first century was the people who often met in each other's homes and other venues for Bible study, song and prayer.
Christianity was never about men in fine robes with fancy titles and funny hats, being friends with the world. (James 4:4)....and churches were never meant to be ostentatious structures with expensive trappings, because Christianity was about providing for the flock, both spiritually and for those in need.

I hope that has answered your questions.....

 

[Dropship]

Christmas is pagan to its bootstraps....
Easter is also a most unchristian celebration...
Birthdays have a similar reason to avoid them...
There is no cross mentioned in the Bible... The instrument upon which Christ met his death was a "stauros", which simply means an upright stake...The cross is an image and we will not participate in idolatry.
Churches? These are merely buildings....but it is what is taught in these buildings that is the problem....and where the teachers in those buildings get their training...
Blood transfusions are an emotive topic but one we have stuck to for many decades because God's law on blood was specific. (Leviticus 17:10-12)...

Lighten up..
1- Christmas and birhdays are simply celebrations of Jesus's and our births, and Easter respectfully marks Jesus's crucifixion.
2- The cross is a symbol of power, you JW's better hope Dracula doesn't come at you or you won't have one to ward him off, and will have to use a baseball bat..
3- Churches are just meeting places, better than having to meet in a tin shed or noisy pub..
4- When livestock disease was going around in Old T times, God warned people to lay off meat for a while, then afterwards people were able to tuck into whatever they liked again-
"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything" (Genesis 9:3)
As for transfusions, nobody wants somebody else's blood pumped into them (you never know where its been) but if it's necessary to save life I suppose it's better than just dying, although JW's wouldn't agree..

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Dropship you asked, I answered. You don’t have to agree.....
And if you believe what a newspaper report tells you remember that they never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

[dev553344]

Exodus 20:3: “You shall have no other gods before Me.”

Titus 2:13: "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"

John 5:18
18 "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

Matthew 2:11
11 "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Luke 24:52
52 "And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,"

If Jesus is not God incarnate, why do we worship Him? His identity itself is divine! And, He ain't no "angel"! Archangel or any other kind of angel.


5 Bible Verses about Angels Not To Be Worshipped

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”


Matthew 4:9-10
and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’”

Luke 4:7-8
Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

Romans 1:25
"For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

Colossians 2:18
"Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,"

Source: 5 Bible verses about Angels Not To Be Worshipped

So then, how do those who worship angel/angels get past these verses? Seems they might have to jump through a whole lotta hoops to make this into "a" truth...?

I am truly interested in what some of our beloved JW's have to say about this...please though, not a million para's...I'm slow like that

I worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father taught me to worship and praise Jesus his Son. So what I do know about God is that he has love peace and joy (Galatians 5:22-23). And because I've felt his good spirit I have grown to love them, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brakelite]

I haven’t made any demands.

I’ve asked what Jesus would say in response to a particular question and I’ve received an opinion from one person, which I rejected.

I’ve suggested that Jesus would answer the question by saying that he worshipped his God. That suggestion was rejected by the person I suggested it to.

That’s not the answer he would give in response to the question he was asked. That’s your answer, placed in his mouth.

Jesus would answer that he worshipped his God.

It's a hypothetical question that no-one could know how Jesus would answer. I can imagine the Pharisees and lawyers rehearsing series of questions and challenges in order to tap Jesus into answering questions according to their devising in order to accuse Him. They lost every time. Even their agents came back with a no result..."no man speaketh like this man". So in your abject rejection of one pertains suggestion, are you not requiring that only your answer could be the one Jesus would give?

 

[Matthias]

It's a hypothetical question that no-one could know how Jesus would answer. I can imagine the Pharisees and lawyers rehearsing series of questions and challenges in order to tap Jesus into answering questions according to their devising in order to accuse Him. They lost every time. Even their agents came back with a no result..."no man speaketh like this man". So in your abject rejection of one pertains suggestion, are you not requiring that only your answer could be the one Jesus would give?

No.

As I mentioned to Aunty Jane, I wouldn’t demand (or require) anyone to believe what I believe, even if I had the power to do so.

I think it’s reasonable that a person who has a God would reply that he worships his God. Those who don’t are free to do so. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

Do you say to everyone who rejects an opinion what you said to me, or have I been singled out for some reason?

Have you said it, or were you planning to say it, to Enoch111?

 

[Brakelite]

No.

As I mentioned to Aunty Jane, I wouldn’t demand (or require) anyone to believe what I believe, even if I had the power to do so.

I think it’s reasonable that a person who has a God would reply that he worships his God. Those who don’t are free to do so. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

Do you say to everyone who rejects an opinion what you said to me, or have I been singled out for some reason?

Have you said it, or were you planning to say it, to Enoch111?

Enoch wasn't they one that posed the hypothetical question. And you charged him with putting words in Jesus mouth. Wouldn't that be true of anyone who attempted an answer?

 

[Matthias]

Enoch wasn't they one that posed the hypothetical question.

That’s right. If he had been the one, would you say to him what you said to me?

And you charged him with putting words in Jesus mouth.

Technically, with putting his words, his position, in Jesus’ mouth.

Wouldn't that be true of anyone who attempted an answer?

Not necessarily.

Had I put what I think about Enoch111 and his theology in Jesus’ mouth then I would be just as guilty of doing what he did. Would you have said anything to me about it if I had?

 

[Brakelite]

That’s right. If he had been the one, would you say to him what you said to me?

Sure, even more so. Unlike him I'm not a trinitarian.

 

[Matthias]

Sure, even more so. Unlike him I'm not a trinitarian.

Thanks. I wouldn’t have.

 

[Matthias]

Did Jesus worship anyone or anything?

 

[Nancy]

@Matthias has asked for a response to your post, so here goes.....please excuse the jump in font sizes, this happens when people don't use the default sizing in their posts, I presume.
I messes up the replies.


If the Jewish Shema declared....
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:" (Deuteronomy 6:4, Jewish Tanakh)
Their one God was "יְהֹוָ֥ה" ....so no god who was not Yahweh/Jehovah was to receive worship. Jesus was never once called Yahweh, so he was not God and never commanded "worship" for himself, however he did on occasion receive "obeisance"....it's the same word but context determines the interpretation.

So we have to understand this word "worship" in order to know what was rendered and to whom. It is basically the rendering of reverent honor or homage to someone who is deemed worthy of such.
Most Hebrew and Greek words that can denote "worship" can also be applied to acts other than worship. However, the context determines in what way the respective words are to be understood. When given to Yahweh it is worship, when given to man it is obeisance. Jesus was a man.
But even on his return to heaven his Father was still his "God" (Revelation 3:12) Does God worship himself?

There are three Hebrew words..."ʽa·vadhʹ" meaning "to serve".....serving or worshiping Jehovah required obedience to all of his commands, doing his will as a person exclusively devoted to him, as all Jews were obligated to do by birth. (Joshua 24:14-15)
"hish·ta·chawahʹ" meaning to bow down or do obeisance....which could at times simply be an act of respect or of courteous regard toward another person.
and "sa·ghadhʹ" meaning to "prostrate oneself"......all have their place in Jewish scripture. What happens when one language does not translate accurately to another? Misinterpretation. Calling "obeisance" "worship" is a prime example...they are not the same, but if you rely on an inaccurate English translation, you can easily be misled.

Just one thing only here as, we do not want to constantly rehash over and over again. As far as font sizes, I use the larger print for a good brother on here who is has bad eyesight so, as long as he is with us, I will use the number 5 font.
God bless

 

[Dropship]

@Dropship..if you believe what a newspaper report tells you remember that they never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

It's not a "story", it's a fact that that woman JW preferred to die rather than have a transfusion.
Would you have a transfusion?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Just one thing only here as, we do not want to constantly rehash over and over again. As far as font sizes, I use the larger print for a good brother on here who is has bad eyesight so, as long as he is with us, I will use the number 5 font.
God bless

That is nice of you but I believe that we have the capability to enlarge font on our own devices.

Trying to control the font size once it has been altered is a nightmare...but thank you for explaining.

 

[Ziggy]

It's not a "story", it's a fact that that woman JW preferred to die rather than have a transfusion.
Would you have a transfusion?

I'm not JW, but considering what we just went through these last couple years...
I think I rather face death and take my chances.
Just sayin
Hugs