Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

[tom55]

Friend, there's no comparison to sincere Protestants who turn from their mistakes in prophetic interpretation toward the correct understanding of it, and Catholics who are determined to follow error even when the light of truth is so mercifully shined unto them.

Also, you obviously don't understand how deception works, and that is perfectly understandable seeing that you stubbornly defend the monumental errors of Catholicism. The devil is not going to fool anyone with a fake 6 dollar bill. His modus operandi is to mix a small amount of error with a lot of truth so that those who lack Holy Spirit discernment will be ensnared. Like mixing a little arsenic in a nice tall glass of OJ.

The Bible teaches that Jesus did NOT have a nature like the angels, but that "He Himself ALSO, LIKEWISE took part in the SAME flesh" as we have. What kind of flesh do we have? Perfect flesh? No, fallen flesh. Jesus had a nature that was identical to ours, yet He sinned not once because of His close relationship with the Father.

What does the Antichrist teach? That MARY was perfect (Immaculate Conception) which is NOWHERE in Scripture, and that the combined perfect Mary and perfect Holy Spirit produced a Jesus that was DIFFERENT from us and this DIFFERENCE is why we need the mediation of MARY, as per the one you call Mother Theresa claims, "No Mary, no Jesus" and why the Catholic church says, "As no one comes to the Father but by the Son, no one comes to the Son but by Mary."

Yes, the Antichrist denies that Jesus came in the flesh, just like John says it would.

Once again you don't answer my questions AND try to change the subject.

SDA doctrine is rock solid? Everyone else's doctrine is wrong?

Isn't it true some of the Adventist doctrine has some of the same beliefs as the RCC?

What makes the 7th day Adventist infallible (since it obviously started out very fallible in its interpretation of scripture) compared to any other denomination?

If we go the to the Bible alone for doctrines wouldn't we have to find in the bible what books are supposed to be in it (table of contents)?

How do we know we got the right books since there was disagreement on which books should be in the bible?

How do you know your denomination got it right?

And why did it take God over 1800 years to finally reveal the truth to us and bless us with the truth of the 7th Day Adventist doctrine?

Why did God abandon us for 1800 years?

I suspect you won't answer them because you would realize the fallacy of your argument and how illogical you are.

 

[mjrhealth]

"The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

Kudos to the Catholic church for the endorsement.

A bit like mum saying " look at my daughter, shes just like me".

 

[Phoneman777]

A bit like mum saying " look at my daughter, shes just like me".

Are you saying that SDA church is like the Catholic church?

 

[Phoneman777]

Once again you don't answer my questions AND try to change the subject.

SDA doctrine is rock solid? Everyone else's doctrine is wrong?

Isn't it true some of the Adventist doctrine has some of the same beliefs as the RCC?

What makes the 7th day Adventist infallible (since it obviously started out very fallible in its interpretation of scripture) compared to any other denomination?

If we go the to the Bible alone for doctrines wouldn't we have to find in the bible what books are supposed to be in it (table of contents)?

How do we know we got the right books since there was disagreement on which books should be in the bible?

How do you know your denomination got it right?

And why did it take God over 1800 years to finally reveal the truth to us and bless us with the truth of the 7th Day Adventist doctrine?

Why did God abandon us for 1800 years?

I suspect you won't answer them because you would realize the fallacy of your argument and how illogical you are.

One question at a time, please.

1. How is the SDA church right and everyone else wrong? " To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

2. Yes, the Papacy and the SDA church both believe some of the same things, like that God exists. The problem is that the god of the RCC is the dragon who gave the RCC it's "power, seat, and great authority" (Revelation 13:2), not the God of heaven.

3. You are wrong in claiming that the SDA church started out with a "fallible interpretation of Scripture", for since it began in 1863, all her doctrines and beliefs that have remained unchanged (because the Bible is unchanging).

4. A table of contents is not required when the Holy Spirit "guides you into all truth". Jesus said, "If any man be willing to do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." The problem with so many churches today is that none of them, most notably the RCC, are willing to do what God says, but would rather be seduced by what Satan says.

5. We know we have the right books because God Himself preserved His Word - the ONLY safeguard against the erroneous ideas of men - as an anchor in a raging sea of false doctrine and an anvil that has worn out many a Papists' hammers. Prayerful comparison of Bible MSS has led faithful men to disregard those MSS which do not speak according to the law and the testimony may be safely dismissed as uninspired, such as that RIDICULOUS account in the "Gospel of Peter" where a newly resurrected but extremely weak Jesus is carried and followed out of the tomb by a walking, talking Cross. God's miraculous healing/resurrection power was never shown Biblically to require time to take effect - like our cheap over the counter remedies. God's power is INSTANTANEOUS. The question, "Have you preached to them that sleep?" with the Cross answering, "yes", is a pathetic attempt to add credence to the pagan idea of consciousness after death. The Bible teaches after we die, we don't think, speak, hear, know, feel, devise, or even praise God.

6. My denomination is right because it teaches more closely to the Bible than any other. The RCC is wrong because it teaches so blatantly AGAINST the Bible by, for instance, saying "call the priests and pope 'father'", while the Bible says "call no man father; you've but ONE Father which is in heaven." So, why are you still following a system that teaches contrary to God?

7. All these centuries of the development of false doctrine would never have taken place if men would have preferred to emulate the humility of Christ rather than seeking acceptance with the world and the god of this world. Every false Christian doctrine that exists today is the direct result of the actions of the RCC - century after century the withdrawal of the Bible from the people and forcing them to rely on whatever their priestly false teachers said along with directing their minds to the leaders of the church rather than to our Heavenly High Priest is to blame for the confusion that exists today. The Protestant Reformation was the God-ordained movement in which He began to sweep aside the layers of RCC error which covered over the beautiful truths of Scripture that were uncovered during that time, beginning firstly with Luther's message of "Salvation by grace through faith", the most important of all doctrines which the Papacy TO THIS DAY still corrupts with its works-based "gospel". Unfortunately, the Protestants refused to line up on the Sabbath/Sunday issue at the Council of Trent when the Archbishop of Reggio stood up and condemned the Protestant Reformation as nothing more than a selfish rebellion by insisting that Sunday sacredness is not Biblical, but is founded on the authority of his beloved RCC and upon hearing this, the Protestants tucked their tails and retreated because they knew the Archbishop was right. Finally, God raised up the SDA church as the end time remnant church to restore the true Sabbath of the Creator along with other Papal errors and is now preaching the 3 Angels Messages of warning to a world that is soon to meet Jesus to not accept the Mark of the Beast (Papacy) which the Papacy claims is...you guessed it...Sunday sacredness.

8. God did NOT abandon us at any time. Prophecy foretold the 1260 years reign of the Papacy, from 538 when the Pope stepped forward and united church and state and with the sword of France it slaughtered millions of God's faithful until 1798 when French general Berthier arrested and imprisoned the pope and the Papacy was "dead". According to Revelation 13:10, "...he that killeth with the sword (of France) must be killed by the sword (of France)". During this 1260 years, the true church would flee into the wilderness and there be "nourished" by God (Revelation 12) while the Antichrist Papacy reigned in all its abominable infamy for all to see. Does that sound like He abandoned anyone?

I have studied objectively both Jesuit Preterism and Futurism and once believed Jesuit Futurism, which I did not know came from the Jesuits until I began to examine Historicism. In other words, unlike you, I have fearlessly examined closely and objectively both sides of the argument because I wanted God to reveal unto me truth, whatever it happened to be. I'd love to sit down and speak with you on Historicism and give you the opportunity to test your beliefs to see if they stand up to Biblical scrutiny. Anyone who truly believes his position is founded on the solid rock of truth should not fear one second to have his beliefs challenged.

 

[Wormwood]

My view on "the restrainer."

The concept of Satan being restrained is found in multiple passages in the NT. I think all of them refer to the same basic concept. I will list some passages below and issue some comments.

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:7–10, ESV)

“Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8, ESV)

“For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.” (2 Corinthians 10:4, ESV)

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.” (Revelation 20:1–3, ESV)

In my opinion, these verses (and others) all reflect the same basic concept. Each of these verses indicate that Satan and his working is limited. The "restrainer" is God through the work of Christ. Jesus came to "destroy" (literally, "render powerless") the works of the devil and he accomplished that on the cross. Scripture reveals that, through the preaching of the cross, the enemy is powerless. All who desire to be set free from sin can be set free. Satan is utterly powerless to "deceive the nations" at the preaching of the Gospel and thus hold people in their bondage to sin. "The mystery of lawlessness" is at work in the world, but that lawlessness is on a leash at the present time and holds no power against the Church and preaching of the Gospel. The gates of hell are powerless to withstand the Church of God. Jesus said that if someone wants to rob a strong man, he must first bind the strong man and then he can rob him. In essence, through the power of the cross, Satan is bound and the Church is able to release the captives held by the power of Satan and sin.

I believe that this "binding" of Satan refers to the entire church age. The "millennium" refers to the entire period of the church after the resurrection. I believe that just before the Second Coming, Satan will be "released" to work powerful deceptions and the church will be severely persecuted to the point of being all but snuffed out.

“And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 11:7–10, ESV)

The "two witnesses" is the Church. The number two reflects the validity of the Church's testimony. In the Law, the testimony was considered valid if established by 2 or 3 witnesses. These two witnesses reflect the valid testimony of the Church that brings spiritual judgment on the world. At some point, Satan is given full influence to kill and make war with those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and will be able to "deceive the nations" once again. Yet this period will be short lived because God will vindicate his servants and Satan, who has been deceiving and leading astray the nations will be revealed at the Second Coming of Christ and destroyed.

Thus, in my opinion, the "man of lawlessnes/mystery of lawlessness/son of destruction/lawless one" is Satan. Paul is telling the Thessalonians that they do not need to worry about missing the Second Coming. As long as evil and lawlessness exists in the world, it means the man of lawlessness/mystery of lawlessness/the one who seeks to glorify himself in God's temple/creation as a god/the one who opposes all that is God's... is still at work behind the scenes. Thus, Jesus has not returned yet, because when he does return, he will expose Satan to all and destroy him (along with all who belong to him)...thus putting an end to lawlessness and evil.

 

[Phoneman777]

My view on "the restrainer."

The concept of Satan being restrained is found in multiple passages in the NT. I think all of them refer to the same basic concept. I will list some passages below and issue some comments.





In my opinion, these verses (and others) all reflect the same basic concept. Each of these verses indicate that Satan and his working is limited. The "restrainer" is God through the work of Christ. Jesus came to "destroy" (literally, "render powerless") the works of the devil and he accomplished that on the cross. Scripture reveals that, through the preaching of the cross, the enemy is powerless. All who desire to be set free from sin can be set free. Satan is utterly powerless to "deceive the nations" at the preaching of the Gospel and thus hold people in their bondage to sin. "The mystery of lawlessness" is at work in the world, but that lawlessness is on a leash at the present time and holds no power against the Church and preaching of the Gospel. The gates of hell are powerless to withstand the Church of God. Jesus said that if someone wants to rob a strong man, he must first bind the strong man and then he can rob him. In essence, through the power of the cross, Satan is bound and the Church is able to release the captives held by the power of Satan and sin.

I believe that this "binding" of Satan refers to the entire church age. The "millennium" refers to the entire period of the church after the resurrection. I believe that just before the Second Coming, Satan will be "released" to work powerful deceptions and the church will be severely persecuted to the point of being all but snuffed out.

The "two witnesses" is the Church. The number two reflects the validity of the Church's testimony. In the Law, the testimony was considered valid if established by 2 or 3 witnesses. These two witnesses reflect the valid testimony of the Church that brings spiritual judgment on the world. At some point, Satan is given full influence to kill and make war with those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and will be able to "deceive the nations" once again. Yet this period will be short lived because God will vindicate his servants and Satan, who has been deceiving and leading astray the nations will be revealed at the Second Coming of Christ and destroyed.

Thus, in my opinion, the "man of lawlessnes/mystery of lawlessness/son of destruction/lawless one" is Satan. Paul is telling the Thessalonians that they do not need to worry about missing the Second Coming. As long as evil and lawlessness exists in the world, it means the man of lawlessness/mystery of lawlessness/the one who seeks to glorify himself in God's temple/creation as a god/the one who opposes all that is God's... is still at work behind the scenes. Thus, Jesus has not returned yet, because when he does return, he will expose Satan to all and destroy him (along with all who belong to him)...thus putting an end to lawlessness and evil.

There are some issues that need to be dealt with in order to take the position that the Restrainer is an Agent of Holiness, be it God, the HS, the HS filled church, etc.:

1) The ECF all unanimously believed that the Restrainer was Pagan Rome, not some Agent of Holiness. So, we must conclude that Paul told the early church that the Restrainer was an Agent of Holiness but somehow every single ECF misinterpreted "Agent of Holiness" to mean "really bad, evil dude". Not likely.

2) The ECF were not far removed from Paul's presence in the early church and word of who Paul identified as the Restrainer to the Thessalonians would have surely spread throughout the church, so if Paul taught it was an Agent of Holiness, that would have been reflected in the writings of the ECF. Again, we must conclude that we Christians who live thousands of years after Paul are somehow in a better position to ascertain the identity of the Restrainer rather than church members who lived during and not too far removed from the time of Paul and his disclosure to the early church of who the identity of the Restrainer was. Also not likely.

3) If the Restrainer was some Agent of Holiness, Paul would not have hesitated to preach this to a persecuted church much in need of encouragement. Once again, we must conclude that though Paul never hesitated to preach Christ and Him crucified and His mighty power over sin and Satan to heathen kings, princes, noblemen, etc, when writing to his FELLOW BELIEVERS in Thessalonica he suddenly became too timid or embarrassed to proclaim this "Agent of Holiness" with a celestial boot on the neck of Antichrist - thus depriving the persecuted church of much needed encouragement that God is still on the throne despite their wretched condition. Most highly unlikely.

However, one may just as easily accept Historicism's interpretation:

1)The ECF believed that Pagan Rome was the Restrainer b/c that's what Paul told the early church.
2) The ECF weren't so stupid as to confuse "Agent of Holiness" with "really bad, evil dude".
3) Paul didn't tell the early church who the Restrainer was because to speak about an empire being "taken out of the way" was high treason punishable by death for anyone or "church" involved in such discourse - Paul surely would have proudly proclaimed AT GREAT PERIL TO HIS OWN LIFE the Restrainer as an Agent of Holiness if that were so, seeing that Paul was absolutely consumed with preaching the Kingdom of God to anyone and everyone at anytime under any circumstances, be he whipped, stoned, shipwrecked, thirsty, hungry, etc.

Of course, the acceptance of Historicism also includes the idea that after Pagan Rome fell, the Papal Roman Antichrist "man of sin" arose and began to wreak the havoc against the church, which is why according to tradition the early church prayed for the preservation of the Roman Empire despite the persecution they suffered under its reign, because of what horrors awaited the church after Pagan Rome would fall. So, Wormwood, how do you reconcile these three problems which arise when one chooses to identify the Restrainer as some Agent of Holiness?

 

[Dcopymope]

In 2 Thess 2:6-7 it talks about the restrainer who is holding back evil and lawlessness.I am curious as to what people here think Paul is talking about.I am pressed for time so I will return later to read what is said and to give my personal opinion.Please...keep it simple and only post Bible verses if they actually directly pertain to this specific topic.Again, directly pertain to this specific topic. It is so difficult to wade through some threads here because some people seem to think volume equates quality.Thank you in advance.

There are a handful of verses that leads me to believe that it is God that is ultimately being referred to as the restrainer. Its the verse about God sending a strong delusion that is the dead give away to me. I liken the strong delusion to the hardening of the Pharaohs heart. Just like God turned the Pharaoh over completely to the lusts of his own heart, the same will be done on a global scale, to ensure that they believe "a lie". Romans 1 pretty much speaks of the same thing, it pretty much speaks for itself.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

We see God being clearly spoken of as a sort of restrainer here, so I don't see why it would be any different when it comes to the revealing of the man of sin. I liken "the restrainer" to that of a dog chain, and if there is a dog chain for the soul of man, then why not the man of sin? The restrainer could be the arch angel Michael as proposed by others, but it can be even more likely that its God himself.

 

[Eoreris]

It is the coming 2 witnesses.. They stand before God and the Earth. Thus they stand before him. When they die and are resurrected and brought back up to him all of God's fury will begin.. As God's wrath begins the lawless will grow. The riots and protest now are just the small beginning.. Each plague from God will be like turning up the volume knob of the wicked. It will only last a short time but will be very bad. The 2 witnesses will (walk) the greatest richest city on Earth very soon for 3 and a half years. The one who takes the rule must come first for a while. His (name) means (World rule) and this is the name of blasphemy as no one is recognized in Heaven as the one (Who rules) except Jesus Christ,,,coming. When the 2 witnesses are taken away.. it begins. If you are truly a child of the reign you will know it was the 2 sons of oil among you but only after they leave.. and you (and yours) will know what to do, where to go and stay alive as they will have told you.

 

[Phoneman777]

It is the coming 2 witnesses.. They stand before God and the Earth. Thus they stand before him. When they die and are resurrected and brought back up to him all of God's fury will begin.. As God's wrath begins the lawless will grow. The riots and protest now are just the small beginning.. Each plague from God will be like turning up the volume knob of the wicked. It will only last a short time but will be very bad. The 2 witnesses will (walk) the greatest richest city on Earth very soon for 3 and a half years. The one who takes the rule must come first for a while. His (name) means (World rule) and this is the name of blasphemy as no one is recognized in Heaven as the one (Who rules) except Jesus Christ,,,coming. When the 2 witnesses are taken away.. it begins. If you are truly a child of the reign you will know it was the 2 sons of oil among you but only after they leave.. and you (and yours) will know what to do, where to go and stay alive as they will have told you.

Here's a different take. Revelation is a highly symbolic book, which symbols are interpreted by the Bible itself. To understand Revelation 11, we must review Zechariah 4, where Zechariah has an extremely similar vision and reveals what it means: "the word of the Lord". The "Two Witnesses" , the "Sons of Oil" are the "Word of God" - Old and New Testament, which is the offspring of the Holy Spirit, according to 2 Peter 1:19-21 KJV. Moses smote the earth with plagues and Elijah brought down the fire. "Moses and Elijah", "Moses and the Prophets", "the Law and the Prophets", "the Law and the Testimony", etc. were all symbolic phrases which refer to the revealed "Word of God".

This prophecy was a prediction of what happened during the French Revolution when for 3 1/2 years the Two Witnesses were killed, meaning the Bible was outlawed and "the Goddess of Reason" was brought in. They sent gifts one to another in joyful celebration that that burden was cast off their backs, but the "Reign of Terror" soon took hold and it got so bad that exactly 3 1/2 years to the day, the Bible was brought back in desperation to save them from total destruction. This prophetic interpretation is based on "Historicism". Historicism was taught exclusively by the Protestant churches for over 300 solid years before it was replaced about 100 years ago with the popular fables that are taught today by Hagee, Baxter, etc.

 

[brakelite]

Here's a different take. Revelation is a highly symbolic book, which symbols are interpreted by the Bible itself. To understand Revelation 11, we must review Zechariah 4, where Zechariah has an extremely similar vision and reveals what it means: "the word of the Lord". The "Two Witnesses" , the "Sons of Oil" are the "Word of God" - Old and New Testament, which is the offspring of the Holy Spirit, according to 2 Peter 1:19-21 KJV. Moses smote the earth with plagues and Elijah brought down the fire. "Moses and Elijah", "Moses and the Prophets", "the Law and the Prophets", "the Law and the Testimony", etc. were all symbolic phrases which refer to the revealed "Word of God".

This prophecy was a prediction of what happened during the French Revolution when for 3 1/2 years the Two Witnesses were killed, meaning the Bible was outlawed and "the Goddess of Reason" was brought in. They sent gifts one to another in joyful celebration that that burden was cast off their backs, but the "Reign of Terror" soon took hold and it got so bad that exactly 3 1/2 years to the day, the Bible was brought back in desperation to save them from total destruction. This prophetic interpretation is based on "Historicism". Historicism was taught exclusively by the Protestant churches for over 300 solid years before it was replaced about 100 years ago with the popular fables that are taught today by Hagee, Baxter, etc.

And so long as the world today leaves those 'witnesses' lying in the street, how can we not expect a repeat of what took place during the reign of terror? Are not what is happening in America today in their streets and legislative chambers an indication as to where the world is heading?

 

[Eoreris]

The 2 witnesses are a real embodied persons-soon to come. They will come and go and not even Christians will recognize or see them as the 2 prophets to come. When they resurrect it will be made known to all children of God that it (was) them. When they resurrect many, many shall fear what they see and will give glory to the God in Heaven (Of the Jewish and christian ) bibles. But when they resurrect (all) forgiveness will be (cut off) Anyone who has not repented that tries to after that will (not) be forgiven. Anyone who is not written in the Lamb's book of life that tries to praise Jesus or God after that will not be heard.. When the 2 witnesses resurrect the door will be closed. When they are taken all things will be finished except the wrath of God.. The wrath of God has not begun yet.. so the 2 witnesses have not come yet either but will in just a few short years from now. The 2 witnesses already know (now) who the man to come of lawlessness , the son of perdition is. You will not know until after they- the 2 witnesses- are taken and then God will open the eyes and hearing of only those written in the book of life and reveal him to them as he wants you to see what it is he will do to him.. It is Christ war victory.

 

[Phoneman777]

The 2 witnesses are a real embodied persons-soon to come. They will come and go and not even Christians will recognize or see them as the 2 prophets to come. When they resurrect it will be made known to all children of God that it (was) them. When they resurrect many, many shall fear what they see and will give glory to the God in Heaven (Of the Jewish and christian ) bibles. But when they resurrect (all) forgiveness will be (cut off) Anyone who has not repented that tries to after that will (not) be forgiven. Anyone who is not written in the Lamb's book of life that tries to praise Jesus or God after that will not be heard.. When the 2 witnesses resurrect the door will be closed. When they are taken all things will be finished except the wrath of God.. The wrath of God has not begun yet.. so the 2 witnesses have not come yet either but will in just a few short years from now. The 2 witnesses already know (now) who the man to come of lawlessness , the son of perdition is. You will not know until after they- the 2 witnesses- are taken and then God will open the eyes and hearing of only those written in the book of life and reveal him to them as he wants you to see what it is he will do to him.. It is Christ war victory.

What's the very first verse of the book of Revelation? "The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto Him to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass, and He sent and signified it..."

"Signified" means "represented by symbolism". Your signature is a symbolic representation of your person. Therefore, a signified revelation is a revelation represented by symbolism - symbols which must be interpreted. The only way the Two Witnesses could be literal men is if Jesus left out that part about His revelation being signified, friend.

 

[Eoreris]

What's the very first verse of the book of Revelation? "The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto Him to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass, and He sent and signified it..."

"Signified" means "represented by symbolism". Your signature is a symbolic representation of your person. Therefore, a signified revelation is a revelation represented by symbolism - symbols which must be interpreted. The only way the Two Witnesses could be literal men is if Jesus left out that part about His revelation being signified, friend.

Yes they are symbols to come.. In the psalms it is said of them-- Psalms 69:11 And I make my clothing sackcloth, And I am to them for a simile. Which means an example. The book of Revelation itself is the book they (eat) handed to them. The book is mostly for them as they are the (Him) that overcomes in all 7 candlesticks. They come symbolic as an example.. like a person that walks from a coast to coast to bring awareness to something they will soon walk the greatest city on Earth, And when they are gone the daily continual sacrifice of Jesus salvation for all will be removed. Many will give glory to God on that day but they will not be heard or let in. It will be finished

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes they are symbols to come.. In the psalms it is said of them-- Psalms 69:11 And I make my clothing sackcloth, And I am to them for a simile. Which means an example. The book of Revelation itself is the book they (eat) handed to them. The book is mostly for them as they are the (Him) that overcomes in all 7 candlesticks. They come symbolic as an example.. like a person that walks from a coast to coast to bring awareness to something they will soon walk the greatest city on Earth, And when they are gone the daily continual sacrifice of Jesus salvation for all will be removed. Many will give glory to God on that day but they will not be heard or let in. It will be finished

What we know:

1. The Two Witnesses are described as two human beings.
2. The Two Witnesses are symbols.

Therefore, the meaning of the symbol of the Two Witnesses must be something other than human beings. According to Dictionary Online:

symbol (noun) 1. a thing that represents or stands for something else."

Therefore, the Two Witnesses do not represent two human beings, they represent something else.

Peter says that we've got to let the "holy men" who wrote the Bible interpret prophecy for us, lest we fall into "private interpretation". If you ask Zechariah, one of these "holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost", he will tell you that John's imagery of the Two Witnesses is a symbol of the OT and NT - the "Word of God", not two dudes.

 

[Eoreris]

What we know:

1. The Two Witnesses are described as two human beings.
2. The Two Witnesses are symbols.

Therefore, the meaning of the symbol of the Two Witnesses must be something other than human beings. According to Dictionary Online:

symbol (noun) 1. a thing that represents or stands for something else."

Therefore, the Two Witnesses do not represent two human beings, they represent something else.

Peter says that we've got to let the "holy men" who wrote the Bible interpret prophecy for us, lest we fall into "private interpretation". If you ask Zechariah, one of these "holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost", he will tell you that John's imagery of the Two Witnesses is a symbol of the OT and NT - the "Word of God", not two dudes.

It is even worse.. They are not 2 dudes but one dude containing 2 sons of oil.. I do like the dude comment.. that feels right

 

[Phoneman777]

It is even worse.. They are not 2 dudes but one dude containing 2 sons of oil.. I do like the dude comment.. that feels right

Ok, but please remember that Peter said "Knowing this first that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost".

Therefore, the prophecy of the Two Witnesses must be explained by one of those "holy men" and as fate would have it, one such holy man named Zechariah spoke of the same vision that John had. You should probably refer to Zechariah 4:1-6 KJV to interpret John's vision for you, rather than interpreting it yourself because that would be a private interpretation, friend.

 

[Eoreris]

Ok, but please remember that Peter said "Knowing this first that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost".

Therefore, the prophecy of the Two Witnesses must be explained by one of those "holy men" and as fate would have it, one such holy man named Zechariah spoke of the same vision that John had. You should probably refer to Zechariah 4:1-6 KJV to interpret John's vision for you, rather than interpreting it yourself because that would be a private interpretation, friend.

Right , you never know when one of them or both are speaking now and on an online post.. it is the way of the World right now,, remember- one of them is clothed in filthy garments.. he might go rouge for a bit as he tries to get ready.. do not count out anything you hear.. might be one of em' and is an official interpretation coming through and not a private one

 

[brakelite]

2 Thess. 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The discussion thus far has ranged far and wide, and now and again it gets back on track....I have a question. Did anyone in history do precisely what the above scripture described? Did anyone sit in the temple of God (the NT church) ...exalt himself to the throne of God....accept worship....pretending to be God??? In the OT and NT we are given a vivid description of the throne room in heaven. The throne, surrounded on each side by two cherubim, and four beasts. So has anyone established a counterfeit? Did a major falling result in the establishment of this counterfeit? And did the removal of the Roman pagan empire from its Roman capital contribute greatly to that establishment, to the extent that the emperor even from Constantinople endow the counterfeit with legal and empirical authority? This had to be the case, because prophecy demands it...the dragon (Rome) gave its seat and power to the beast...so what beast is it that sat itself on the throne and pretended to be God????View attachment 408 Not an individual, but an entire system of worship.

 

[Eoreris]

Rev.13
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

one these men has a name -- A (Name of blasphemy) ? There is one now.. about to rule - his name means (World rule) in the dictiionary. This name itself is blasphemous.. as only Jesus is the World ruler.. This will not go down in literal Jerusalem but in the place it was spiritually moved.. a Great city.. This man's home seat is in this city

 

[michaelvpardo]

Rev.13
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

one these men has a name -- A (Name of blasphemy) ? There is one now.. about to rule - his name means (World rule) in the dictiionary. This name itself is blasphemous.. as only Jesus is the World ruler.. This will not go down in literal Jerusalem but in the place it was spiritually moved.. a Great city.. This man's home seat is in this city

There's a hoard of people named Joshua or Jesus roaming about the face of the earth, which is a name I'd think twice about giving to a child, but I known born again believers with that honorable name. Do you think that you could be a little more vague in your posts? There isn't enough confusion around here yet and we could always use a little more. :huh: