Why Argue Against Doing the Law?

[David in NJ]

See how well you reconcile and harmonize your quote above with this....
KJV Romans 8:3-4, 7-9
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Good Morning,
Simple: you have select quotes here and left out the COMMAND sentences that give UNDERSTANDING to the SUBJECT = law vs Spirit

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.

Only One Man Fully and Completely Satisfied the FATHER so that we can have REST = 24/7 = no special day of the week needed as it has ALL been fulfilled in Messiah.

Do you know who knew this to be TRUE as a JEW and former Pharisee??? - the Apostle Paul who wrote Romans, Colossians, Galatians etc

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.
And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

i am ALIVE together with HIM for HE is my REST

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians ch2

 

[Brakelite]

Good Morning,
Simple: you have select quotes here and left out the COMMAND sentences that give UNDERSTANDING to the SUBJECT = law vs Spirit

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.

Only One Man Fully and Completely Satisfied the FATHER so that we can have REST = 24/7 = no special day of the week needed as it has ALL been fulfilled in Messiah.

Do you know who knew this to be TRUE as a JEW and former Pharisee??? - the Apostle Paul who wrote Romans, Colossians, Galatians etc

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.
And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

i am ALIVE together with HIM for HE is my REST

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians ch2

I can't believe you guys are still dredging up the same stuff every time the subject of the Sabbath comes up. All those points have been roundly and thoroughly debunked/refuted/demolished. Time and time again.
Quote...Only One Man Fully and Completely Satisfied the FATHER so that we can have REST = 24/7 = no special day of the week needed as it has ALL been fulfilled in Messiah....I guess I can now ignore the other 9 seeing Jesus fulfilled them all for me right?

 

[BarneyFife]

Good Morning,

Simple: you have select quotes here and left out the COMMAND sentences that give UNDERSTANDING to the SUBJECT = law vs Spirit

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.

Only One Man Fully and Completely Satisfied the FATHER so that we can have REST = 24/7 = no special day of the week needed as it has ALL been fulfilled in Messiah.

Do you know who knew this to be TRUE as a JEW and former Pharisee??? - the Apostle Paul who wrote Romans, Colossians, Galatians etc

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.

And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

i am ALIVE together with HIM for HE is my REST

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Colossians ch2

Hi, Dave (my name's David too, and I'm just one state over, in PA),

Sorry about last night. No excuse, but I wasn't feeling well.

Numerous evidences have been given that the law and the Spirit is not divided. Paul even says the law is spiritual.

So the law of sin and death is not the ten commandments, but simply that "the wages of sin is death."

Which is exactly why the law can't save us, and why God had to send His Son to do what it couldn't do.

The law was never meant to atone for sin or to provide eternal life, after Adam and Eve sinned.

But perfect obedience to God's commands is the eternal requirement for eternal life.

If it were not so, Jesus need not have lived a perfectly obedient human life. That seems clear enough, doesn't it?

Christ thus condemned sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3), which is exactly what Paul describes doing in 1 Corinthians 9:27.

flesh,

σαρκί (sarki)

Noun - Dative Feminine Singular

Strong's 4561: Flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.

body

σῶμα (sōma)

Noun - Accusative Neuter Singular

Strong's 4983: Body, flesh; the body of the Church. From sozo; the body, used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively.

Different word, same thing. Why did Paul feel he had to do what Christ had already done for him?

Because that is what salvation, or restoring the image of God in man is all about.

Colossians 2 and Romans 14 are not talking about the ten commandments. It's been debunked over and over.

If Christ felt the Sabbath was unimportant and obsolete you have to wonder why He would subject Himself to it?

That’s all I got for now…

 

[David in NJ]

Hi, Dave (my name's David too, and I'm just one state over, in PA),

Sorry about last night. No excuse, but I wasn't feeling well.

Numerous evidences have been given that the law and the Spirit is not divided. Paul even says the law is spiritual.

So the law of sin and death is not the ten commandments, but simply that "the wages of sin is death."

Which is exactly why the law can't save us, and why God had to send His Son to do what it couldn't do.

The law was never meant to atone for sin or to provide eternal life, after Adam and Eve sinned.

But perfect obedience to God's commands is the eternal requirement for eternal life.

If it were not so, Jesus need not have lived a perfectly obedient human life. That seems clear enough, doesn't it?

Christ thus condemned sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3), which is exactly what Paul describes doing in 1 Corinthians 9:27.

flesh,

σαρκί (sarki)

Noun - Dative Feminine Singular

Strong's 4561: Flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.

body

σῶμα (sōma)

Noun - Accusative Neuter Singular

Strong's 4983: Body, flesh; the body of the Church. From sozo; the body, used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively.

Different word, same thing. Why did Paul feel he had to do what Christ had already done for him?

Because that is what salvation, or restoring the image of God in man is all about.

Colossians 2 and Romans 14 are not talking about the ten commandments. It's been debunked over and over.

If Christ felt the Sabbath was unimportant and obsolete you have to wonder why He would subject Himself to it?

That’s all I got for now…

Yeah, the late nite chats are usually short and misaligned(speaking of myself) but not intentional.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yeah, the late nite chats are usually short and misaligned(speaking of myself) but not intentional.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Christians argue about the law of God in a way in which the Jews never did.

Jews may have obeyed or transgressed the law, and debated points of law, but they never argued about whether the law ought to be kept and obeyed.

But Christians actually argue about whether to keep the law of God or not, and some even go so far as to argue against keeping the law, as though doing the law were a sin against grace: they demonize the law and doing the law of Christ as becoming enemies of grace and the cross of Christ.

Why is that?

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Rom 1)

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1)

The law of God is the word of God written plainly in Scripture: no Christian argues against being doers of the word, so why argue against being doers of the law?

Because they misread how the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, and falsely conclude keeping the letter of the law is death.

The foolish argument is about whether to be doers of the law and word, and the right argument is about how the letter of the law kills without the Spirit:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2 Cor 6)

How can the letter of the law kill, when it is the same life giving Spirit who gives us the letter of the law in Scripture?

Scripture here is speaking of the letter as opposed to the Spirit, which is the letter only without the Spirit.

Keeping the letter of the law only, without the Spirit, is death and not life in Christ Jesus.

Even as faith only is dead without works, so the letter only is dead without the Spirit.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. (Rom 9)

The letter in Scripture kills, when it is obeyed as it were by law on paper only, and not by law of God written in the heart with the Spirit.

To obey the letter only without the heart is still death of the soul, for only by obeying the letter from the heart by grace through faith is there righteousness, life, and peace with God.

And since the letter of the law of Christ written in Scripture is the law written in our hearts and minds, then no man can be disobeying the letter on paper, and yet be doing the law from the heart.

Unlike the unbelieving Jews that were dead by letter only, Christians are to keep the letter of the law and do it well by grace through faith.

The Jews erred by seeking the righteousness of the law only, without faith, and Christians err by seeking righteousness by faith only, without the law.

Christians ought to do the righteousness of God, without leaving the letter of His law undone:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And God forbid Christians should seek to abolish the law of Christ altogether as written, which even the unbelieving Jews never dared to do.

The law of God is not without the Spirit, and the Spirit of God is not without His law:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Making oneself do the letter of the law only kills the spirit, and making oneself spiritual without the letter of the law only kills righteousness.

One of course has to know the law to do it. What would you say a few of the laws are for us Christians Rob?

 

[BarneyFife]

The point is Barn, that because we keep the first one, including the second one covers all 10, and even deeper to the core issue of iniquity. I certainly hope you are not against keeping those two. LOL I know you keep them, but your post is almost meaning you are scoffing at them. You're not are you? You're not choosing the Sabbath day over Jesus are you? See, that is ridiculous, but that's what is 'sounds' like.

You're right, Sis, it is ridiculous . I'm afraid I don’t take all of the things you’re saying here for granted.

And I'm not aware that God has ever required me to choose between the Sabbath of the LORD and the LORD and Giver of the Sabbath. I'm not sure why you're making that a test of some kind (if that’s what you’re doing).

We might as well face the fact that as delightfully chummy as we are (and we are that), we hardly agree at all on the claims of God as regards the perpetuity of the law, in general, and the 4th commandment, in particular. You do realize that, don't you? I don't require anything doctrinally of you, personally, but I believe God requires certain things of all of us.

@BarnyFife

Can you see that to love your neighbor as yourself more than covers the moral law of the last 6 commandments? So if you keep that one, you CANNOT break the last six? So asking someone which one of those last 6 we can break is moot.

Well, if you love Jesus with all your heart, you are automatically keeping the first four, but not just once a week, but 24/7/365. So the same goes for the 4th. We keep the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath day by abiding in Jesus. The Spirit also goes deeper than the 4th letter of the law commandment. It is deeper, and is also kept 24/7/365

I do not see that to love my neighbor as myself more than covers the scope of the last 6 of the ten commandments. The 2 great commandments are a summary–not an expansion. They certainly entail more than the ten commandments itemize, but they are not in any way conclusive, even to those who have been changed by the contemplation of Calvary by the agency of the Spirit.

I do not at all believe that everyone who professes to love Jesus with all of their heart is automatically keeping the first 4 of the ten commandments—not in the slightest.

The Holy Ghost most often does not work independently of His Word. I have seen this first-hand. Most people in third-world countries do not automatically stop worshiping their idols, stealing, lying, fornicating, and abusing their own health immediately after even being deeply touched by the Spirit of God. It just doesn't usually work that way. We, in the western world, take for granted our privilege of civilized history.

I've never been anywhere where people do the awful, dreadful things of which we usually dare not even speak, after obviously being converted, but I'm well acquainted with folks who have seen these things, and they tell me very plainly that in nearly all cases, the Holy Ghost does not operate as a magic wand to instantly and thoroughly correct these behaviors.

And I don’t believe for one minute that the softening influence of The Comforter and its saving power is reserved only for those who reform their conduct overnight. Labor and delivery takes more time for some than others–even in the new birth.

The other 9 commandments, besides the 4th, were never intended to be kept only once a week, as far as I know, so they are not comparable in that respect.

And I do not, in any way, believe that abiding in Jesus satisfies the requirement of the 4th commandment, although I believe it is the primary focus of Hebrews 4.

Nor do I believe there are any scriptural grounds whatsoever for the transfer of the solemnity of the 7th day Sabbath to the first day of the week. And church fathers are not inspired in the same sense as the writers of Scripture. Their opinions and interpretations are only as good as their agreement with Scripture.

You want me to be honest, don't you?

I'm a card-carrying, died-in-the-wool, Seventh-day Adventist. I hold to the literal ten commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. I believe every word that we teach regarding the three angels' messages. And I believe that all of it comprises the Everlasting Gospel and Covenant.

I do not sympathize with the sentiments of anti-denominationalism that pervade Christianity today.

I’ve seen the evidence against all the things I believe and, with the exception of a few non-essentials, I am more convinced today than ever before that there is not a bit of truth to them.

Having said all of this, I most heartily believe that everyone has an inalienable right to determine, without any hindrance (except for that which would hinder others to do the same), what they believe and what they can express concerning what God requires of them. And I believe this every bit as much as I believe what I know God requires of me, myself.

In other words, it’s all good.

Agreement is highly overrated.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

And I do not, in any way, believe that abiding in Jesus satisfies the requirement of the 4th commandment, although I believe it is the primary focus of Hebrews 4.

I liked your post, and your beliefs are why I said that SDA's and WOF have more born again Christians than any other. So I'm not against SDA's in the slightest. And though I relate to the heart of SDA and WOF, I do believe I understand more of the spiritual evolutions into the New Covenant than either.

I too do not believe keeping Sunday is 'required' to replace the Sabbath, and am shocked to her Amish, Mennonites, Quakers or any other denomination call Sunday the Sabbath. That is just ignorance.

I just had one question. Did you mean Hebrews 4 was about keeping the Sabbath, or abiding in Jesus. It does refer to the 7th day, but hastily says God is calling a new day, Today, replacing the 7th. Did you notice that? That is why abiding in Jesus is 24/7/365.

Just wondering, Barn. Do you believe I am saved with my beliefs? Or are only those who keep the letter of the law about the Sabbath on the 7th

Love you brother!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You don't think you need a new heart to keep the Sabbath?

Just as long as you recognize that we MUST be born again, you can honor God on the Sabbath if you believe so. What does being born again mean to you. And why couldn't the OT Jews be born again?

 

[BarneyFife]

I liked your post, and your beliefs are why I said that SDA's and WOF have more born again Christians than any other. So I'm not against SDA's in the slightest. And though I relate to the heart of SDA and WOF, I do believe I understand more of the spiritual evolutions into the New Covenant that either.

I too do not believe keeping Sunday is 'required' to replace the Sabbath, and am shocked to her Amish, Mennonites, Quakers or any other denomination call Sunday the Sabbath. That is just ignorance.

I just had one question. Did you mean Hebrews 4 was about keeping the Sabbath, or abiding in Jesus. It does refer to the 7th day, but hastily says God is calling a new day, Today, replacing the 7th. Did you notice that? That is why abiding in Jesus is 24/7/365.

Just wondering, Barn. Do you believe I am saved with my beliefs? Or are only those who keep the letter of the law about the Sabbath on the 7th

Love you brother!

Sister Linda, you're the greatest! I don't care what Muhammad Ali said.

Yes, Hebrews 4 is primarily about the rest Jesus urges and invites us to have in Matthew 11:28-29, and a little about the rest of the final reward, I think. The author was primarily talking to folks who were fixated on Sabbath-type rest and the rest of the promised Canaan. But I do not believe anything in Hebrews 4 replaces the literal reading of the 4th commandment. It is set in stone for me.

The New Covenant brings to view a lot of information that the Patriarchs, Prophets, and Kings just didn't have, generally speaking. But I think it is interesting to note that Jesus was stunned by the fact that Nicodemus, as a leader and teacher in Israel didn't understand the new birth. Very telling in the light of the Everlasting Covenant, don't you think?

I hate to get technical on you, but I abhor the "saved" designation. It has been abused so to the point that it means practically nothing when most Christians say it.

I can't judge as to whether you will be among the ransomed at the end. And I have no way of knowing a person's deepest convictions. God simply judges all hearts and men are not equipped to do that. But you exhibit the traits of someone who has been born again and is abiding in Christ, and I believe so much in the power of Jesus to save to the uttermost, that I can scarcely imagine you and me not meeting and fellowshipping together in the new earth and New Jerusalem. We have this hope that burns within our hearts! Do you remember that hymn?

Hebrews 6:18 Thus by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be strongly encouraged.
Hebrews 6:19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
Hebrews 6:20 where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.​

We're going to have eternity to visit and see and build things together and maybe even cook up some Nuteena (Did you know that John Harvey Kellogg himself created the original version--Nuttose--of that stuff? I hope he makes it there, too; he was such a brilliant and good man) that is outta this world. I'll bet Jesus and His angels have an amazing recipe for it. And we'll sit down to feast, and your family and friends will meet and greet with my family and friends and God might even sing to us (you know, it's in the Bible).

Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD your God is among you; He is mighty to save. He will rejoice over you with gladness; He will quiet you with His love; He will rejoice over you with singing."​

I can't wait to meet you in person, Sis!

I hope I've answered your questions clearly enough.

Luv u 2, Sister Linda!

 

[Brakelite]

Just as long as you recognize that we MUST be born again, you can honor God on the Sabbath if you believe so. What does being born again mean to you. And why couldn't the OT Jews be born again?

When I first came to Christ 43 years ago my understanding of scripture and the process of salvation could have been written in bold capital letters on the back of a napkin and left enough space for the Declaration of Independence.
I knew nothing of the concept of OSAS until Christian forums became a thing 20 years later. It was only then that I asked myself questions regarding the security of my salvation. How did I know I was saved? was a question better expressed as how do I know God loves me? Over those 20 years I had experienced enough of God's care to convince me He loved me and cared for even the little things. The more I learned of scripture, the more I realised what was written was often being played out in my life. I realized I was born again, and had become a new creature, years before I understood the theory. I was redeemed years before I understood the atonement. But when people started debating something I wasn't theologically familiar with, I resorted to experience and testimony. I asked myself, how was I saved? Thinking upon that gave me the answer I needed to the OSAS question.
I was saved, converted, when I came to a point in my life (prompted by a friend and convicted by the holy Spirit ) when I decided to let God make my life something He would approve of. That process examples is still continuing to this day. Not everyone's testimony is the same. I was born again overnight. Literally. But with others who for example grow up in the church, they cannot refer back to s specific time when they were 'born again'. Doesn't mean they weren't, just means they didn't know it was taking place. There never was a time when they didn't love Jesus. And they are today consecrated, committed, pious God fearing Christians For me today, it's more than just an approved life now: it's now a life I would want Him to declare as being very good. Like His Son's. Am I saved? Not yet. But I am in His hands. I have been justified. I am being sanctified. I will be glorified. Then, I will be saved. In the meantime, Jesus is not speaking to me in mysteries any more. The time has come that I now know not just Jesus' love, but the Father's love.
KJV John 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

 

[robert derrick]

One of course has to know the law to do it. What would you say a few of the laws are for us Christians Rob?

God has His law, not laws, as I pointed out to you before. There are commandments and points of His law:

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well.

As well as transgressions defined by His law:

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And there are more in Scripture of the apostles given to them by Jesus after His resurrection:

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

This law of Christ is written in the hearts and minds of them that receive Him and His Spirit, called the law of the Spirit, so that our conscience bears witness to them: And so we keep a pure conscience by doing the law from within a pure heart.

They are also written in Scripture, so that we will not be led astray by guilt-tripping of men, that preach their own rules and commandments for law of Christ, such as circumcision of the flesh, Sabbath keeping, worship of days, no drinking wine, no eating certain foods, etc...

None of these things are written in Scripture as law to obey, and so are not law of Christ for all His followers to do.

Them that are free in the liberty of the law of Christ, have no conscience about such things one way or the other, and cannot be seduced into keeping commandments of men for law of Christ:

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

The devil tempts believers in two ways: to transgress the law of Christ as written, and to obey the unwritten rules of man for law of Christ.

The former is no doing the word of Jesus, and the latter is not doing His law only.

 

[David in NJ]

God has His law, not laws, as I pointed out to you before. There are commandments and points of His law:

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well.

As well as transgressions defined by His law:

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And there are more in Scripture of the apostles given to them by Jesus after His resurrection:

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

This law of Christ is written in the hearts and minds of them that receive Him and His Spirit, called the law of the Spirit, so that our conscience bears witness to them: we keep a pure conscience by doing the law.

They are also written in Scripture, so that we will not be led astray by guilt-tripping of men, that preach their own rules and commandments for law of Christ, such as circumcision of the flesh, Sabbath keeping, worship of days, no drinking wine, no eating certain foods, etc...

None of these things are written in Scripture to as law to obey, and so are not law of Christ for all His followers to obey.

Them that are free in the liberty of the law of Christ have no conscience about such things one way or the other, and cannot be seduced into keeping commandments of men for law of Christ:

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

The devil tempts believers in two ways: to transgress the law of Christ, and to obey the rules of man for law of Christ. The former is no doing the word of Jesus, and the latter is not doing His word only.

This was so well said - may i copy your statement and use it elswhere? i will say truthfully, this is from Brother RD

 

[David in NJ]

God has His law, not laws, as I pointed out to you before. There are commandments and points of His law:

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well.

As well as transgressions defined by His law:

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And there are more in Scripture of the apostles given to them by Jesus after His resurrection:

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

This law of Christ is written in the hearts and minds of them that receive Him and His Spirit, called the law of the Spirit, so that our conscience bears witness to them: we keep a pure conscience by doing the law.

They are also written in Scripture, so that we will not be led astray by guilt-tripping of men, that preach their own rules and commandments for law of Christ, such as circumcision of the flesh, Sabbath keeping, worship of days, no drinking wine, no eating certain foods, etc...

None of these things are written in Scripture to as law to obey, and so are not law of Christ for all His followers to obey.

Them that are free in the liberty of the law of Christ have no conscience about such things one way or the other, and cannot be seduced into keeping commandments of men for law of Christ:

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

The devil tempts believers in two ways: to transgress the law of Christ, and to obey the rules of man for law of Christ. The former is no doing the word of Jesus, and the latter is not doing His word only.

Also, notice that the Apostles never mention keeping the sabbath day of the week as necessary to Please God nor as a sin if we do not worship saturday or sunday, but rather that true worship is in Christ everyday.

 

[robert derrick]

When I first came to Christ 43 years ago my understanding of scripture and the process of salvation could have been written in bold capital letters on the back of a napkin and left enough space for the Declaration of Independence.
I knew nothing of the concept of OSAS until Christian forums became a thing 20 years later. It was only then that I asked myself questions regarding the security of my salvation. How did I know I was saved? was a question better expressed as how do I know God loves me? Over those 20 years I had experienced enough of God's care to convince me He loved me and cared for even the little things. The more I learned of scripture, the more I realised what was written was often being played out in my life. I realized I was born again, and had become a new creature, years before I understood the theory. I was redeemed years before I understood the atonement. But when people started debating something I wasn't theologically familiar with, I resorted to experience and testimony. I asked myself, how was I saved? Thinking upon that gave me the answer I needed to the OSAS question.
I was saved, converted, when I came to a point in my life (prompted by a friend and convicted by the holy Spirit ) when I decided to let God make my life something He would approve of. That process examples is still continuing to this day. Not everyone's testimony is the same. I was born again overnight. Literally. But with others who for example grow up in the church, they cannot refer back to s specific time when they were 'born again'. Doesn't mean they weren't, just means they didn't know it was taking place. There never was a time when they didn't love Jesus. And they are today consecrated, committed, pious God fearing Christians For me today, it's more than just an approved life now: it's now a life I would want Him to declare as being very good. Like His Son's. Am I saved? Not yet. But I am in His hands. I have been justified. I am being sanctified. I will be glorified. Then, I will be saved. In the meantime, Jesus is not speaking to me in mysteries any more. The time has come that I now know not just Jesus' love, but the Father's love.
KJV John 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

I had the same questions and self-doubts, until I learned to love the law of the Lord. Now I let Him answer all questions by Scripture.

Much simpler.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Many Christians confess their sinning, but do not believe the Scripture as written, and so do not obey Him as He commands us:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confessing our sin is not about us forgiving ourselves, but about Jesus forgiving us as He says in Scripture.

He is the faithful and just One to do His own word, and so if we confess our sin, but continue to condemn ourselves, then we are not believing, trusting, and obeying Him, which does not please God.

When I first learned that, and so quit beating myself over the head after confessing the sin, but rather lifted up my hands to thank Him for forgiving me according to His own written word, that is when first He anointed me with the oil of gladness, beginning from the top of my head down, and filled me with His Holy Spirit like a sun burst within:

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

Now, I know if I sin and confess my sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive me of my sin, and restore me to His fellowship in full light and grace as before the sinning.

OSAS mocks confession and forgiveness of sins, by knowing they will sin, not if, and that He has already forgiven them at the cross.

It's the reason they argue against doing the law for justification with God: they want to believe in an unconditional salvation that needs no confession and forgiveness of sin in the future: they want to think their personal salvation is already unconditionally secured, by having all their sinning, which certainly will happen today and tomorrow, already forgiven.

There is no fear of the Lord in their eyes, nor godly sorrow for sinning, and any confessing of a sin is become only lip service.

 

[robert derrick]

This was so well said - may i copy your statement and use it elswhere? i will say truthfully, this is from Brother RD

Leave out the RD part, lest some mock and rage against you for heresy.

I spent 15 years as a new babe in Christ obeying the rules of men, called holiness sanctification, and ended up losing my career and wife over it.

I have learned the hard way to trust what is written in Scripture only.

When any believer learns not even to trust his own conscience over Scripture, whether to do something as law or not, then that believer becomes a son of God in deed and in truth: to obey the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

This comes to pass for any believer that lifts up Scripture as the only truth of God's law and word written by His Spirit of the prophets and apostles to us.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

You know Backlit, I don't find the Law burdensome but it makes me wonder why people do. I don't have a burning desire to hit the cot with another mans woman; stealing doesn't interest me; going to war and killing is about as distasteful as putting broken glass up my backside....and so on. The only reason I can think of that would make it burdensome is if one has intentions of going contrary to it.
I then ask myself, are there really that many folk who claim to want to fall in line with God and his values while at the same time making a big insistent song and dance on having it or it being scrapped.....it seems so! In fact I think it so strange and contrary to common sense I get tired of listening to the yada yada about living in some higher reality while I hear them pulling other brothers down. I'm sure God must weep watching these confused bumpkins thrashing around, unaware of the self harm they inflict.

Paul explained in Rom. 8:7 why people view God's commandments as a burden: the human mind is naturally evil(Jer. 17:9, Jhn. 3:19), so lawless people resent the fact that God possesses the authority to tell them how to live their lives.

These people know that if they were to actually practice biblical Christianity, they would have to surrender themselves to God and allow His reasoning to be above their own as the sole source of moral authority, and unconverted people are completely incapable of doing neither.

 

[David in NJ]

Leave out the RD part, lest some mock and rage against you for heresy.

I spent 15 years as a new babe in Christ obeying the rules of men, called holiness sanctification, and ended up losing my career and wife over it.

I have learned the hard way to trust what is written in Scripture only.

When any believer learns not even to trust his own conscience over Scripture, whether to do something as law or not, then that believer becomes a son of God in deed and in truth: to obey the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

This comes to pass for any believer that lifts up Scripture as the only truth of God's law and word written by His Spirit of the prophets and apostles to us.

And thus why my Brethren also see me as they see you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When I first came to Christ 43 years ago my understanding of scripture and the process of salvation could have been written in bold capital letters on the back of a napkin and left enough space for the Declaration of Independence.
I knew nothing of the concept of OSAS until Christian forums became a thing 20 years later. It was only then that I asked myself questions regarding the security of my salvation. How did I know I was saved? was a question better expressed as how do I know God loves me? Over those 20 years I had experienced enough of God's care to convince me He loved me and cared for even the little things. The more I learned of scripture, the more I realised what was written was often being played out in my life. I realized I was born again, and had become a new creature, years before I understood the theory. I was redeemed years before I understood the atonement. But when people started debating something I wasn't theologically familiar with, I resorted to experience and testimony. I asked myself, how was I saved? Thinking upon that gave me the answer I needed to the OSAS question.
I was saved, converted, when I came to a point in my life (prompted by a friend and convicted by the holy Spirit ) when I decided to let God make my life something He would approve of. That process examples is still continuing to this day. Not everyone's testimony is the same. I was born again overnight. Literally. But with others who for example grow up in the church, they cannot refer back to s specific time when they were 'born again'. Doesn't mean they weren't, just means they didn't know it was taking place. There never was a time when they didn't love Jesus. And they are today consecrated, committed, pious God fearing Christians For me today, it's more than just an approved life now: it's now a life I would want Him to declare as being very good. Like His Son's. Am I saved? Not yet. But I am in His hands. I have been justified. I am being sanctified. I will be glorified. Then, I will be saved. In the meantime, Jesus is not speaking to me in mysteries any more. The time has come that I now know not just Jesus' love, but the Father's love.
KJV John 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

I understand. Mine was Feb. 9, 1977 around 8 pm.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, Hebrews 4 is primarily about the rest Jesus urges and invites us to have in Matthew 11:28-29,

Yes! Exactly. Barn, you are the first SDA I've seen that recognized that fact. In the OT they didn't trust God, the Father, even though He did all these miracles to show them they could. The New Testament is about our trust in Jesus. There were two covenants about law. The first was until the Seed of Promise, Jesus, should come. Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made. But Barn, you can still keep the sign of the first covenant if you want to. Ex. 31:13. It would be a sin for you not to at this point. Obey your conscience! Just adding all this for your understanding of where I am and why. Okay, good buddy?

One, thing though, Barn. Testament is Covenant. We are in the New "Covenant." The New Covenant is the everlasting covenant, not the first. Ex. 34:28.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 Corinthians 11:25
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Two Covenants

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.