Why did God love and forgive David so?

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: Yes, his boat held perhaps the same kind of mess that followed Moses out of Egypt into the wilderness or was it cleaner in the Ark?

bbyrd009 said: hmm, diff analogy imo, mixing metaphors here maybe

My connection of the two is certainly rough, but both are concerned with salvation. One was salvation of animal life including people from the flood waters. The other was salvation of a people from slavery. They were both being given a new opportunity to do it right according to God.

While the ark held unclean and clean beasts, might those not be identified with the Israelites who were saved from Egypt but did not make it on into the Promised Land? This is where it is rough, but I was hoping the roughness was in my own seeing as through a glass darkly and perhaps you or another reader could help smooth it out.

The beasts did not look back to the cucumbers, leeks, garlic and onions of their former homes. They followed blindly into the ark. The Israelites seemingly had some kind of hope for a new home, but when things got rough they kept on looking back at what they remembered as good.

 

[Helen]

One thing that does come to mind, is that Noah among men was the best that there was before the flood and yet we see him getting drunk shortly after getting out of the boat and into his day to day activities. Kind of reminds me of Lot:

"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds" II Peter 2:7-8

How righteous was Noah? How just was Lot? If these were the good guy, how bad were the bad guys? Where is the better world? People are looking out beyond themselves, but what good are they likely to encounter there [beyond themselves] if their hearts remain dark?

It takes a while does it not...to finally see that 'out there'...we will never ever encounter peace, goodness, etc whatever state our heart is in..the kingdom is within....without is only unrest and disillusionment, and the false... We first encounter peace within...as each does this..then the whole will also come into peace....

 

[amadeus]

hmm, i have separate symbologies for "world" and "earth," that many do not seem to share, so we would begin to speak at cross-purposes until this is resolved imo
ha, pretty sure sin is almost all we do, but to address your question, it would seem pertinent for a "believer" to ask at some point why we still have evil after God wiped the Kosmou out in the flood, huh. Course the Erets didn't go anywhere, right. But obv ol' Noah must have had One of his Three out of line, love to see if his confession didn't line up with his profession somewhere in There, or if the principle is only reflected in the "children" of Noah...but of course the passage is doing at least double-duty,

Noah reps more than one concept, so even as he was obviously convicted, coming from conviction, building the Ark, he also obviously had Ham as a son. We know of a "curse of Ham," yet Shem was the childless one lol. I suggest this "curse" is pretty interesting, too, reminds me of nothing so much as a father who puts down a certain type of son with a proclivity for experimenting with...Dad's Bailywick (wife), the Horse Whisperer is coming to mind now

You might enlighten me on your different "world" and "earth" understandings. I see man as being a bit of dirt or earth containing a world which holds onto the "lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" [I John 2:16] as opposed to the globe on which mankind lives his carnal life. I name this latter one planet Earth to make the distinction between it and the carnal body of a man.

On the subject at hand I see new beginnings offered for man to somehow do better with what they have been given than what Adam and Eve did with what they were given. Certainly in Noah and the children of Israel there was mostly failure. Mostly, rather than all, because Noah and family survived; Caleb and Joshua made into the Promised Land. Perhaps in all of these and in others [as for example the Jews return from Babylon] are found many overlapping shadows of the real thing which should be and is coming from the sacrifice of Jesus. But even in what was provided through that sacrifice we find man seemingly striving to find ways to again pervert the plan of God. As there were some few who made it in the OT shadows there will be some few who make it to the goal that God has set before them.

 

[bbyrd009]

My connection of the two is certainly rough, but both are concerned with salvation. One was salvation of animal life including people from the flood waters. The other was salvation of a people from slavery. They were both being given a new opportunity to do it right according to God.

ah, yes, i went looking for that to rephrase my reply; might be speaking to someone else, after all

 

[bbyrd009]

You might enlighten me on your different "world" and "earth" understandings.

ha tbh yours seem close enough, even though to my mind Scriptural terminology will describe "man" differently than either of those terms--soul, temple, ship and maybe even ark come to mind. Guess we should have a thread on it, if no one agrees on the definitions, huh?

Christ said "be in the world, but not of the world." Strong's Greek: 2889. κόσμος (kosmos) -- order, the world
We pray "...on earth, as it is in heaven." oh, wrong earth, sorry
"and the earth became void" ah, there it is Strong's Hebrew: 776. אָ֫רֶץ (erets) -- earth, land

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: Only one door and a window? Hmmm?

bbyrd009 said: is that verified from Scripture? never noticed that, huge

Mind posting it? ty

As soon as I read your post it reminded of something I had noticed a long time ago and never got back to. Something had prompted me to look it up and I started to and then got distracted and forgot about it until you now bring it to mind. I cannot remember what it was. These are the words I find now:

"A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof..." Gen 6:16
"And they went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in." Gen 7:16
"... and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold,the face of the ground was dry" Gen 9:13

 

[amadeus]

hmm well, if a turtle has to climb a tree to be accepted then i guess something is wrong with the test, not the turtle lol

or, uh, what was there reply to "oh, sorry, you were asking for some practical help here?" or just judging iow; as i doubt you would give mom any resistance @ helping make Christmas, even if you would be perfectly happy in a bare room, i guess. What was the context there iow; can't picture you ducking out of a presented need, and there is also a good way to be too spiritual to be any...worldly good at least, right.

I do not recall all of the circumstances as it was a great many years ago [prior to 1987 when we moved from California to Wyoming] but I will relate what I recall about it. It was the third assembly to which we belonged after coming into the Oneness Jesus Only movement. It was the second one within the UPC [United Pentecostal Church] and it was located in a small city in central California. They had their own school and I befriended one of the teachers there. He planted the first seeds of doubt in me about remaining with that group. He disbelieved what was a central tenet for many of them [perhaps even as an official doctrine, but I am not sure of this] and he made the mistake [if it was a mistake] of sharing his disbelief with a couple of other church members. He said he believed that people who had not been baptized in Jesus name according as prescribed by their group and filled with the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in and unknown language could be saved. After long discussions with him over time I got past my ignorance on the point and agreed with him. Somehow I was thrown together with him by these two brothers who felt they needed to report it to the pastor [out of town for a few days] because we getting too deep into the study of matters like this that would accomplish no good and likely would cause harm. This is where at some point one of them used that expression with regard to us as "being too spiritual or too holy to be any earthly good". I did not believe it then although I did not then know exactly how to explain why. It was not too long after that due to an unrelated problem with our pastor[at least not directly] that I moved with my family to Sunnyvale a suburb of our old home town [San Jose, CA where I met and married my wife.]

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: but as I understand it they do not know [or care] what is it that God wants or expects from believers.

bbyrd009 said: ah; what is that, do you think?

His will, His perfect will of each of us! Who knows it? But, even we do not know it should we not want to be in His will rather than our own?

 

[amadeus]

tbh the impression i get from most ppl, pastors too, is that this valley is only a future possibility, a possible scenario one might find themselves, in, iow a "might even" is inferred into the v right after the first "i," "Yea, though i (might even, at times) walk through the valley..."

I guess I am missing something as I have never understood it that way. Perhaps one of my several pastors did, but if so I did not know it. For me the valley or mountain top event is happening now to each believer who is growing. Who is growing and who is becoming stagnant?

 

[amadeus]

all of the meanings found there have not been admitted is likely a better way to put that imo.

Yes, likely God who knows all of the meanings has given them to those He felt it most appropriate to have and to handle them. Whether some them were mishandled or simply none of our business may tell us why we are not familiar with some.

ppl seek a Holy Bible, to worship, see, we want to worship Jesus, not follow Him, even if these no longer apply to you.

Always want a final answer when really within the ability of our little peabrain there is no final answer. For God there may be, but for us...?

there are no secrets iow, just truths that we cannot face yet. In Scripture, all in the Book, iow
any perception of a v that is not 100% is contested by the appropriate v, and the two cannot be resolved until the misunderstanding is

So then with all of this we need the right leader in order to get to the end of the matter. Our ministers or our own brains may be selected as leaders and we will often find ourselves in the appropriate ditch.

 

[amadeus]

XXXXX

ha interesting huh, he gets drunk and his (youngest? prolly) son either sees him naked, or sleeps with his mate, she was not a concubine right, so...ya, gotta get back to you herenow, so tomorrow for this then, but weird that Noah is not doxxed for getting "drunk" right, but his youngest is getting cursed for seeing. something. Uncovering is i guess a better perspective. manana tho

I still await more on this.

 

[amadeus]

ah, did you find that passage? or the vv that gave you that impression, even?

Nada!

 

[amadeus]

we can only manifest what we have learned so far i guess, ya. If you insist that it is raining when i know for a fact beyond all doubt that it is sprinkling, i don't see how i could possibly help you, and of course i cannot possibly be wrong, right, and in need of your help

We must really be directed by the same Director all of the time to never encounter differences which cause us to bump heads on some things. This is also why the charity of I Cor 13 is so very important as I see it.

 

[amadeus]

Law is "A or notA," so what else could a believer do? After all, their belief must be paramount cannot be assailed in any way, otherwise it is no longer "A," it is "notA," right. And we don't have the term "faither" in our lex, not even in there yet huh lol

Again:
"O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23

But also:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes; but the Lord pondereth the hearts" Prov 21:2

 

[amadeus]

ha tbh yours seem close enough, even though to my mind Scriptural terminology will describe "man" differently than either of those terms--soul, temple, ship and maybe even ark come to mind. Guess we should have a thread on it, if no one agrees on the definitions, huh?

Christ said "be in the world, but not of the world." Strong's Greek: 2889. κόσμος (kosmos) -- order, the world
We pray "...on earth, as it is in heaven." oh, wrong earth, sorry
"and the earth became void" ah, there it is Strong's Hebrew: 776. אָ֫רֶץ (erets) -- earth, land

On this one, my secular studies helped because of the different genders definitely expressed in German as well as the distinctions made between "on" and "in". What I read in German and/or in Spanish was not always equal to what someone was telling me the English was saying. Some people have a stuck needle and don't even hear the screeching noise. When I see that portion of what is called the Lord's Prayer I always think "in" earth rather than and/or in addition to "on" earth.

By all means start a thread and perhaps we both and others can learn from it.

 

[Richard_oti]

hmm, God apparently has a diff pov of what is common and holy, too, i guess

Eze 22:26 Her priests have done violence to my law, and have profaned my holy things: they have made no distinction between the holy and the common, neither have they caused men to discern between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and the common, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

 

[Richard_oti]

hmm, yet Moses' "knowledge" is clearly documented outside the Canon, the second five of the Decalogue predate Hammurabi (a king of Babylon, ahem), etc

Who more specifically was an Amorite king, a descendant of Canaan. Of whom, the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full at the time of Abram. One of the nations that was to be utterly destroyed per Deuteronomy.

Hammurabi's Code was an interesting read years ago. Perhaps I should revisit it. Original language: Akkadian. However, it is perhaps one sided in that it reveals the code of the "badguy", and not necessarily that of YHVH. However, the parallels are not to be missed and it predates haTorah Mosheh by a couple of centuries.

OTOH: It could have been passed down from Noah [in part]. But that is speculation with no prospect to "make it stick". Though it is clear that Abraham had "knowledge" with regard to commandments, statutes and laws. According to one of the apocryphal sources, Noah gave Abram the "tablets" to transcribe. Thus plausible as Abram was a contemporary of Noah, being about 47 the year of Noah's death.

Even "Genesis" may not be an original, but rather transcribed from older Akkadian and / or Sumerian source(s) [cf: Bauer, G. Driver]. Though it is ascribed to Mosheh.


Other interesting material:

Mursilis's Treaty with Duppi-Tessub; Circa mid 2nd millenium BCE; Language: Hittite
King Mursilis imposes suzerainty on king Duppi-Tessub. Parallels the OT covenant established by "God" with Israel. Predates haTorah.

Atrahasis Epic; Circa early 2nd millenium BCE; Language: Akkadian
Depicts creation through the flood.

Gilgamesh Epic; Circa early 2nd millenium BCE; Language: Akkadian
Ruler of Uruk, numerous adventures including surviving a great deluge.

Enuma Elish; Circa early 2nd millenium BCE; Akkadian
Depicts Marduk, the Babylonian God. The 7 tablets describe creation.
Predates Genesis.

Ludlul Bel Nemeqi; Circa late 2nd millenium BCE; Akkadian
Depicts a suffering Babylonian nobleman who describes his distress in terms faintly reminiscent of Job.

Ras Shamra Tablets; Circa 15th century BCE; Ugaritic
Depicts Canaanite deities and rulers.

Hymn to the Aten; Circa 14th century BCE; Egyptian
Poem praises the sun in language somewhat similar to that used in Tehillim [Psalms] 104.

Tale of Two Brothers; Circa 13th century BCE; Egyptian
Depicts a man rejecting the amorous advances of his older brother's wife [cf & cp Gen 39].

Sargon Legend; Circa 1st millenium BCE; Akkadian
Depicts Sargon I, the ruler of Akkad from the late 3rd millenium BCE as being rescued as an infant from a reed basket found floating in a river [cp Exodus 2].

Ishtar's Descent; Circa 1st millenium BCE; Akkadian
Depicts the goddess Ishtar as temporarily descending into the netherworld in terms reminiscent of OT descriptions of sheol.

Babylonian Theodicy; Circa early 1st millenium BCE; Akkadian
A sufferer and his friend converse with each other. Reminiscent of Job.

Amenemope's Wisdom; Circa early 1st millenium BCE; Egyptian
Thirty chapters of instruction in wisdom that parallel the books of wisdom in the OT. Proverbs 22 - 24 in particular.

ha well by definition any wife not Eve (a "second" wife) will be Lillith of course; both are outside Canon for a reason iow.

"Lilith" is a myth. It stems from a hapax legomenon in Isaiah 34:14. All the other "creatures" described are natural physical creatures. Thus, it is implausible from my perspective for there to be a singular female night demon amoung them. From my perspective, lilit is a "scapegoat" for "nocturnal emissions", nothing more. According to one source, Lilit bore many demons to Adam.


Lilit : night owl [Strix aluco]

Which is probably from the Akkadian lititu. Whence also Syriac lelitah not related to, but folk-etymologically connected with laylah and interpreted as a "night demon".

And of course, we know that the "interpretation" of things is not always correct either.

For those afraid of the dark, such things as owls, can indeed be terrifying. And "folk-etymologically": IOW, folklore. Again, I simply see it as the superstitious stuff that old wives tales are made of.

OTOH: If there is a lilit, she can visit me anytime. <grin>

hmm, that strikes me as a reflection about one wife, but i agree with your point anyway

Eh, one or more, does it really matter.

 

[bbyrd009]

Whether some them were mishandled or simply none of our business may tell us why we are not familiar with some.

imo it is usually our preconceptions that do that, for instance you got "Holy Spirit as Prosecuting Attorney" from someone lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Eze 22:26 Her priests have done violence to my law, and have profaned my holy things: they have made no distinction between the holy and the common, neither have they caused men to discern between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and the common, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

ha, hopefully some change had occurred in the priests' hearts in the interceding chapters, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

"Lilith" is a myth.

so is marriage to a 2nd wife lol

From my perspective, lilit is a "scapegoat" for "nocturnal emissions", nothing more.

another parallel for a 2nd wife, perhaps, yes

OTOH: If there is a lilit, she can visit me anytime. <grin>

there you go, see lol, we think differently at night, even believers