Why do Dispies count Daniels 'weeks' from Artaxerxes 20th year?

[Zao is life]

Admittedly, the twentieth-year start point for Daniel’s 70 weeks has had its supporters. Their problem though, is that a count of 483 years (69 x 7) from 444 BC comes to AD 40, a date which arrives well after Jesus died. So, proponents of the 444 BC terminus a quo resort to various 'short-year' theories to make the prophecy fit.

The best-known theory is the 360-day 'prophetic year' put forward by Sir Robert Anderson in AD 1895 to bolster the then emerging ‘dispensational’ system of prophecy. He multiplied 483 years by 360 (instead of 365¼), then added it to 445 BC, and arrived at the time (he said) of Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem in AD 32.

Anderson’s dates had to be adjusted by Dr. Harold Hoehner of Dallas Theological Seminary to 444 BC and AD 33 where they remain the basic foundational dates for the doctrine of a future 'seventieth week' held by many prophetic teachers to this day.

This is where the Dispensational ‘count and date’ system comes from – man made doctrine for sure! However, Anderson and Hoehner’s theory is seriously flawed.

To be continued …

Approximate dates are all I ever needed, but I've trusted your dates from the first time I read your works, and I also saw how, while you were diving into the Old Testament scriptures doing the good, thorough biblical research you have done, the Holy Spirit was inspiring you all the way.

So your research and knowledge of this subject I've always found very inspiring. Sometimes God inspires people like me by giving us the knowledge about something we weren't even looking for.

So thanks for this thread, Chris.

PS: I never believed the 70th 'week' was yet to be fulfilled since the day I realized that the word after (Hebrew: achar) in Daniel 9:26 means after, not during or at the close of. That was before I first read your writings on this subject.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

But where do you get this from? It's not in the text. And the whole "beyond the River" doesn't mean anything? And all the other evidences in the decrees and timing?

You'll probably not accept the evidence against the 457 BC decree then either.

@Christian Gedge
Is there no response to these questions?

 

[Christian Gedge]

According to this information:
According to Xenophon (Cyropaedia 8.6. 22), in winter Cyrus spent seven months in Babylon, the three months of spring at Susa, and the two summer months in Ecbatana.

If the tradition continued....if the King and Nehemiah were already in Susa in Kislev for spring, they would have stayed there for Nisan (actual spring). They had left Babylon by the time the narrative starts in Neh 1.

Cyrus was well before the times we are discussing. As for your ”if”, the old Elamite traditions were superseded when Darius rebuilt the palace in Susa. It became the winter residence of Achaemenid kings. So, Nehemiah would have embarked from Babylon in spring.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Cyrus was well before the times we are discussing. As for your ”if”, the old Elamite traditions were superseded when Darius rebuilt the palace in Susa. It became the winter residence of Achaemenid kings. So, Nehemiah would have embarked from Babylon in spring.

Your reply is not consistent with historical records. As the evidence states, Babylon was not a spring residence. If they were already in Susa, Babylon was earlier in their year - fall/winter. According to geography, their grand circuit had Babylon behind them and they were in Susa and soon to be heading north for the summer.

All you have is conjecture and there is no proof for your opinion that Nehemiah left from Babylon in Nisan. There is no statement in Nehemiah to that effect.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Admittedly, the twentieth-year start point for Daniel’s 70 weeks has had its supporters. Their problem though, is that a count of 483 years (69 x 7) from 444 BC comes to AD 40, a date which arrives well after Jesus died. So, proponents of the 444 BC terminus a quo resort to various 'short-year' theories to make the prophecy fit.

The best-known theory is the 360-day 'prophetic year' put forward by Sir Robert Anderson in AD 1895 to bolster the then emerging ‘dispensational’ system of prophecy. He multiplied 483 years by 360 (instead of 365¼), then added it to 445 BC, and arrived at the time (he said) of Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem in AD 32.

Anderson’s dates had to be adjusted by Dr. Harold Hoehner of Dallas Theological Seminary to 444 BC and AD 33 where they remain the basic foundational dates for the doctrine of a future 'seventieth week' held by many prophetic teachers to this day.

This is where the Dispensational ‘count and date’ system comes from – man made doctrine for sure! However, Anderson and Hoehner’s theory is seriously flawed.

To be continued …

Being honest, all these tags from you guys are pretty silly and devoid of facts.

Anyone who does not understand the 70 Sevens (NOT WEEKS, which seems to confuse you) are three separate prophesies should just admit they do not understand prophesy and move on.

Why was it placed by God into Three Separate portions? Because it is three separate prophesies. The 7 x 7 (First period of Sevens was about the wall being finished) the 62 x 7 (2nd period of Sevens was about Jesus' Death) and the coming 1 x 7 (the last Seven, which is about the Anti-Christ and, IMHO, Israel joining the E.U.).

Anyone who can not see what this means needs to get out of the Eschatology Forums and go read the bible more, pray more, etc. The numbers DO NOT MATTER, LOL. We know that the first Prophesy took 49 years, irrelevant what ANYONE ADDS UP. We know the 2nd Prophesy took 434 years no matter how ANYONE ADDS ITS UP. And we know the last prophesy will cover 7 years. So, why are you adding stuff up? SMH.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Being honest, all these tags from you guys are pretty silly and devoid of facts.

Anyone who does not understand the 70 Sevens (NOT WEEKS, which seems to confuse you) are three separate prophesies should just admit they do not understand prophesy and move on.

Why was it placed by God into Three Separate portions? Because it is three separate prophesies. The 7 x 7 (First period of Sevens was about the wall being finished) the 62 x 7 (2nd period of Sevens was about Jesus' Death) and the coming 1 x 7 (the last Seven, which is about the Anti-Christ and, IMHO, Israel joining the E.U.).

Anyone who can not see what this means needs to get out of the Eschatology Forums and go read the bible more, pray more, etc. The numbers DO NOT MATTER, LOL. We know that the first Prophesy took 49 years, irrelevant what ANYONE ADDS UP. We know the 2nd Prophesy took 434 years no matter how ANYONE ADDS ITS UP. And we know the last prophesy will cover 7 years. So, why are you adding stiff up? SMH.

The links in my profile give exacting detail how the prophecy SHOULD be interpreted. Let's discuss more once you view them and examine all the sources and references. We'll see exactly whose view matches the entirety of Scripture.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The links in my profile give exacting detail how the prophecy SHOULD be interpreted. Let's discuss more once you view them and examine all the sources and references. We'll see exactly whose view matches the entirety of Scripture.

I have been a preacher specifically called unto Prophecy, I do not need some jackbooted interpretation to explain what is an easy understanding for me, I wrote a blog on this years ago that blows all of you guys theories out of the water.

Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression (Israel must repent of their transgressions before Jesus' Second Coming)
2. Make and end of sins (Willful sins will end when Jesus shows up, but Israel must also repent first)
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel has to receive Jesus as their Messiah before he can return)
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (The 70th week decree can not end until Jesus ushers thus in)
5. To seal up vision and prophecy (All prophesy must be sealed up or finished before the 70th week ends)
6. Anoint the most Holy (The 70th week can only end when Israel are ready to anoint Jesus as their king)

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. Matt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10, 13:8-9) prophesied, among others.

2. This is fairly straightforward, willful sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no willful sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble” end, then “willful sins will end”. Jesus will not allow willful sins, he rules with a rod of iron, but since Satan is locked in the pit men do not desire to sin willfully, even though they will still have sin nature.

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or else this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not yet come to pass, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiahs help, then she will call upon him, and God/Jesus will then save and protect her from this wicked, evil world.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Not sure what you mean by " jackbooted interpretation". Have you even watched my video presentations? If so, you'd be embarrassed by everything that you just said. I agree with 95% of it actually. So I'm not sure where you have gone off the rails if you recognize all that. It's the beginning of the correct understanding.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Not sure what you mean by " jackbooted interpretation". Have you even watched my video presentations? If so, you'd be embarrassed by everything that you just said. I agree with 95% of it actually. So I'm not sure where you have gone off the rails if you recognize all that. It's the beginning of the correct understanding.

It means you are clueless on prophecy, you would not know prophecy if it fell out of a tree in a leather bag that had PROPHESY on it. You sit around and talk amongst yourselves like you know something, I doubt you even attend church regularly. These message board warriors, from my perspective, know everything and are always wrong, but profess to know everything, and rarely attend church, then want to teach everyone else about the bible.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

It means you are clueless on prophecy, you would not know prophecy if it fell out of a tree in a leather bag that had PROPHESY on it. You sit around and talk amongst yourselves like you know something, I doubt you do not even attend church regularly. These message board warriors, from my perspective, know everything but are always wrong, rarely attend church, then want to teach everyone else about the bible.

Then have a decent and actual discussion based on Scripture. I have repeatedly shown where your OPINION doesn't match what Scripture says. If you can't even do that, stop your nonsense rants already. You have not been given any kind of prophetic gift. That much I will bet good money on.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Then have a decent and actual discussion based on Scripture. I have repeatedly shown where your OPINION doesn't match what Scripture says. If you can't even do that, stop your nonsense rants already. You have not been given any kind of prophetic gift. That much I will bet good money on.

That is a factual untruth, because I understand the bible, have been called unto Prophecy for 40 years. Here is what you are really saying via my interpretation, "My misunderstandings of scriptures does not jibe with what you are putting forth" YES, I agree 1000 percent, thank the Lord it doesn't. You guys do not understand prophecy at all. AND..........The reason I do not have conversations with most of you is you are all like speaking to a wall, you HEAR NOTHING, but already [think you] KNOW IT ALL.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

That is a factual untruth, because I understand the bible, have been called unto Prophecy for 40 years. Here is what you are really saying via my interpretation, "My misunderstandings of scriptures does not jibe with what you are putting forth" YES, I agree 1000 percent, thank the Lord it doesn't. You guys do not understand prophecy at all. AND..........The reason I do not have conversations with most of you is you are all like speaking to a wall, you HEAR NOTHING, but already [think you] KNOW IT ALL.

Do not lump me with all the rest of these people who have not really studied prophecy according to the entirety of Scripture. The Ezra 6:14 Challenge exists to separate the wheat from the chaff. You also seem to be chaff since what you claim is provably false.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Do not lump me with all the rest of these people who have not really studied prophecy according to the entirety of Scripture. The Ezra 6:14 Challenge exists to separate the wheat from the chaff. You also seem to be chaff since what you claim is provably false.

The Pharisees studied and did not understand the Messiah would not only come as a Conquering King but as a Suffering Servant. You can read it al you want, when you do not understand Dan. 9:24-27, or the EASY Pre Trib Rapture, I am not buying anything you say, I understand you are not hearing from the holy spirit but from OTHER MEN.

I don't chaff, I don't even pay you guys attention. I do not like false teaching any more than God does. Yu will have to answer for trying to teach prophecy when it is not your calling. If it was your calling you wouldn't be wrong on everything.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The Pharisees studied and did not understand the Messiah would not only come as a Conquering King but as a Suffering Servant. You can read it al you want, when you do not understand Dan. 9:24-27, or the EASY Pre Trib Rapture, I am not buying anything you say, I understand you are not hearing from the holy spirit but from OTHER MEN.

I don't chaff, I don't even pay you guys attention. I do not like false teaching any more than God does. Yu will have to answer for trying to teach prophecy when it is not your calling. If it was your calling you wouldn't be wrong on everything.

You haven't even examined anything of my presentations. Otherwise you wouldn't even say what you are saying.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You haven't even examined anything of my presentations. Otherwise you wouldn't even say what you are saying.

I don't have to, I already know you can't even discern when the Rapture is AND you stated everything I said about Daniel's prophecy was wrong, so I know you do not understand Prophesy.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I don't have to, I already know you can't even discern when the Rapture is AND you stated everything I said about Daniel's prophecy was wrong, so I know you do not understand Prophesy.

LOL

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I have been a preacher specifically called unto Prophecy, I do not need some jackbooted interpretation to explain what is an easy understanding for me, I wrote a blog on this years ago that blows all of you guys theories out of the water.
...snip...

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.
...

It's so easy to pop your pompous hot air. So much of your opinion is not according to the truth stated in Scripture.
5. "seal up" means to seal up. Gabriel tells Daniel specifically that the prophecies would be hidden and sealed or "satam" and "hatam" until the time of the end.
[Dan 12:9-10 LSB] 9 Then he said, "Go [your way], Daniel, for [these] words are concealed and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 "Many will be purged, purified, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand."

Only those with true insight will fully understand. It's obvious most on this forum are without insight.

6. The original Hebrew does not say "most holy". It says "holy holies". "kodesh kodashim"
Many, many places in the Old Testament this phrase is used for the inner part of the tabernacle and later the temple. It's very easy to verify.
[Exo 26:34 LSB] 34 "You shall put the mercy seat on the ark of the testimony in the Holy of Holies.

So, no. Just these 2 items show you have no special gift that people should believe much of anything you spout off. And your arrogant attitude is very unchristian and childish.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

One other very interesting and significant thing is that what Artaxerxes does in Nisan of his 20th year is NEVER referred to as a decree. Nehemiah asks for letters. Now people can argue that of course the letters contain the king's decree. But it's significant to notice that the narrative never refers to them as such. There were specific decrees from Cyrus, Darius and earlier from Artaxerxes (7th year). Also, these decrees were quoted. Nothing is quoted from the letters in the 20th year.

Since the other decrees are quoted, that's why what they say and don't say is very important. The 457 BC Artaxerxes decree contains absolutely nothing about rebuilding Jerusalem. Or about rebuilding the temple. Actually, the temple had already been rebuilt years before - under Darius. The 457 BC decree was for beautifying the temple as Ezra specifically thanks God for:
[Ezr 7:27 LSB] 27 Blessed be Yahweh, the God of our fathers, who has put [such a thing] as this in the king's heart, to beautify the house of Yahweh which is in Jerusalem,

 

[Ronald D Milam]

It's so easy to pop your pompous hot air. So much of your opinion is not according to the truth stated in Scripture.
5. "seal up" means to seal up. Gabriel tells Daniel specifically that the prophecies would be hidden and sealed or "satam" and "hatam" until the time of the end.
[Dan 12:9-10 LSB] 9 Then he said, "Go [your way], Daniel, for [these] words are concealed and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 "Many will be purged, purified, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand."

Only those with true insight will fully understand. It's obvious most on this forum are without insight.

6. The original Hebrew does not say "most holy". It says "holy holies". "kodesh kodashim"
Many, many places in the Old Testament this phrase is used for the inner part of the tabernacle and later the temple. It's very easy to verify.
[Exo 26:34 LSB] 34 "You shall put the mercy seat on the ark of the testimony in the Holy of Holies.

So, no. Just these 2 items show you have no special gift that people should believe much of anything you spout off. And your arrogant attitude is very unchristian and childish.

You, like most, are not called unto Prophecy, but you want to try and teach that which you have NO CLUE about. I am CALLING YOU OUT, that is what I do to people like you, shine a light on how little you really know on prophecy.

The # 6 point is how you guys just can not see the big picture, you are stuck on the micro, God deals with us in bigger pictures, He uses multiple people thus no matter if one passage gets twisted in MICRO like the 2 Thess. 2:3 lie, that it is Apostacy when its really the Rapture or Departure of the Church. Well, we can see that the Church Departs all over the bible via the TIMING TELLS.

I use original Greek and Hebrew all the time.

It basically says qodesh, qodesh, by saying it twice it MULTIPLIES the meaning, which is why the English translators used Most Holy. The Hebrew word qodesh is even spelled different the second time which shows the implication of the double use of the word.

I say this is speaking about Jesus being anointed the King of kings, the Most Holy is God/Jesus thus qodesh qodesh could be infinite. The second qodesh becomes multiple via the different spelling. So, holy holies implies MOST HOLY, let you can not see that BIG PICTURE and try to quibble about something that means nothing, its just a wasted point tbh

The #5 point is again you not understanding the BIG PICTURE. I explained it perfect, yet you want to go to a whole nother passage (LOL) to try to explain what it means in Daniel 9 (too funny and why this proves you do noy understand how prophecy works, you can not dodge the CONTEXT of the passage).

The CONTEXT shows what all has to happen before the 70th week can come to pass, you want to DODGE THAT because it proves you are in error on your thinking, of course, so wait a few day, a week, then DODGE and REPLY with something that is entirely germane to the context.

You don't get to chose my calling, God doesn't need your permission, LOL. Sad really.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

You, like most, are not called unto Prophecy, but you want to try and teach that which you have NO CLUE about. I am CALLING YOU OUT, that is what I do to people like you, shine a light on how little you really know on prophecy.

The # 6 point is how you guys just can not see the big picture, you are stuck on the micro, God deals with us in bigger pictures, He uses multiple people thus no matter if one passage gets twisted in MICRO like the 2 Thess. 2:3 lie, that it is Apostacy when its really the Rapture or Departure of the Church. Well, we can see that the Church Departs all over the bible via the TIMING TELLS.

I use original Greek and Hebrew all the time.

It basically says qodesh, qodesh, by saying it twice it MULTIPLIES the meaning, which is why the English translators used Most Holy. The Hebrew word qodesh is even spelled different the second time which shows the implication of the double use of the word.

I say this is speaking about Jesus being anointed the King of kings, the Most Holy is God/Jesus thus qodesh qodesh could be infinite. The second qodesh becomes multiple via the different spelling. So, holy holies implies MOST HOLY, let you can not see that BIG PICTURE and try to quibble about something that means nothing, its just a wasted point tbh

The #5 point is again you not understanding the BIG PICTURE. I explained it perfect, yet you want to go to a whole nother passage (LOL) to try to explain what it means in Daniel 9 (too funny and why this proves you do noy understand how prophecy works, you can not dodge the CONTEXT of the passage).

The CONTEXT shows what all has to happen before the 70th week can come to pass, you want to DODGE THAT because it proves you are in error on your thinking, of course, so wait a few day, a week, then DODGE and REPLY with something that is entirely germane to the context.

You don't get to chose my calling, God doesn't need your permission, LOL. Sad really.

Go away pretender. You can't even quote the original Hebrew text correctly.