Why do people believe in a rapture?
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Marcus doesn't see the many promises of God to His righteous people, how they will live in peace and prosperity in all of the Holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10Marcus O'Reillius said:
His thinking is that the Lord's people will be in the One world Govt, whereas prophecy makes it clear all who stand firm in their faith in God won't be a part of that. Why would the AC make a treaty with them if they were? Daniel 9:27
It is the next prophesied event, the Day of the Lord's wrath that 'comes as a thief', unexpectedly and shocking the world. The Return of Jesus is exactly 1260 days after the AC desecrates the Temple.
Right, we don't know the Day of wrath, but we have plenty of signs that tell us it can't be too far off.
I agree with Marcus on this one. Nowhere does the Bible depict that believers will go through the great tribulation, and Jesus' return signals the beginning of the great tribulation.
Quite frankly I'm a pan-trib believer....it will all PAN out in the end.
Quite frankly I'm a pan-trib believer....it will all PAN out in the end.
Matthew 24 (29)....Jesus refers to "after the tribulation", His angels shall gather His elect from the four winds of the earth.....
Well, you agree with me as well. True believers, referred to as the 'woman', in Rev.12, will be taken to a place of safety on earth during the 1260 days of the GT.StanJ said:I agree with Marcus on this one. Nowhere does the Bible depict that believers will go through the great tribulation, and Jesus' return signals the beginning of the great tribulation.
Quite frankly I'm a pan-trib believer....it will all PAN out in the end.
At the end of the 1260 days, Jesus will Return and gather them, along with all who stood firm in their faith during the GT. Matthew 24:31
This gathering is the last one, as the great Second Exodus of all the Lord's righteous people will happen soon after the Sixth Seal clears all of the Holy Land.
Jesus doesn't Return until the GT is over. Are you thinking the Sixth Seal is part of the GT? It isn't, as the sequence in Revelation makes clear.
You're a 'pan tribber'? This quote is a play on when the so called rapture will occur; pre, mid, or post. There is no rapture of people to live in heaven at any time, no Bible prophecy says that is God's plan for His people.
Back to who will go thru the GT: note in Daniel 7:25 that the leader of the One World Govt; the Anti-Christ, will conquer the holy ones, but in Zechariah 14:2, half of the people will escape from him. They will be taken to safety on earth, as described in Rev. 12. They are also referred to in Daniel 11:32
This is referring to after the Great Trib. The Great trib will be cut short in the middle of the last 3.5 years and the Day of the Lord will begin. The Great Trib is not God's wrath. It is man's rebellion against God. The Day of the Lord is God's wrath. StanJ is incorrect.heretoeternity said:
Actually this does NOT refer to believers, it states; "And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."heretoeternity said:
Those peoples are NOT believers.
It was hard to tell by your posts, but if you say so that's good.keras said:
I have no opinion on that as I have not studied it enough to have one.
Yes, it is a play on words, to signify, I guess, just how fruitless it is, IMO, to argue about it. If you have read ANY of my posts, you will know that I don't believe our destination as believers, is Heaven.
Post 67 is incorrect. Matt 24:29-31 is the rapture of the elect. Matt 24 and Rev 6 seals are in order. Matt 24:29-31 and the sixth seal open after the great trib and right before the day of the Lord.
Joel 2:31 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
1st Seal - Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Rev 6:1-2 NIV
2nd Seal - Matt 24:6 NIV, Rev 6:3-4 NIV
3rd Seal - Matt 24:7 NIV, Rev 6:5-6 NIV
4th Seal - Matt 24:6-7 NIV, Rev 6:7-8 NIV
5th Seal - Matt 24:9 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV
6th Seal - Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV
Joel 2:31 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
1st Seal - Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Rev 6:1-2 NIV
2nd Seal - Matt 24:6 NIV, Rev 6:3-4 NIV
3rd Seal - Matt 24:7 NIV, Rev 6:5-6 NIV
4th Seal - Matt 24:6-7 NIV, Rev 6:7-8 NIV
5th Seal - Matt 24:9 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV
6th Seal - Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV
The non believers such as yourself will mourn, but Jesus will gather His elect from the four winds of the earth...and remove them, after the tribulations as Matthew 24 says....you will find it easier if you quit trying to mould the Bible to your own predetermined image and just accept the plainly written words, without editing them to your liking!StanJ said:
The Great Tribulation is found here, "distress" and "those days"...heretoeternity said:
Matt 24:21-22 NIV For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Matt 24:29 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Why would believers morn? You obviously can read, but you cannot see. It doesn't say believers, as you asserted, it say PEOPLE of the earth. We will not be there so we won't be people of the earth that will morn. You mistake Jesus returning to the earth for the 3rd time, to His second coming. Matt 24 is about Jesus establishing His 1000 years reign on THIS earth.heretoeternity said:
Rapture is after the Great Trib and on the Day of the Lord at the seventh seal. Sun, moon and stars...
Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Here is yet another misrepresentation of Scripture by keras.keras said:
Revelation reveals that the "woman" is not the Church.
Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Who is the "woman"? Israel, natural born Israel: i.e., Jews.
Gen 37:9-11. - Israel interprets Joseph's dream of the sun, moon, and eleven stars bowing down to him as being himself, his wife and their sons.
Scripture interprets Scripture. rabbi keras, well, at best, he just can't get it.
So, Marcus, it seems you just can't get the fact that CHRISTIANS are Israelite's.
In New Testament scripture, you have failed to read or understand that the Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to a nation that bears fruit. Matthew 21:43
Not all of Israel are true Israel; Romans 9:8
It is with us [Christians] in mind, God has made a better plan...... Hebrews 11:40
But in a way, you are right, as it is mainly Western people, descended from the 10 Northern tribes who are Christians, therefore we are mostly Israelite by descent as well as by faith. All true believers ARE that nation that Jesus referred to and our destiny is to re-inhabit all of the Holy Land and fulfil God's original purpose for His people, of being a light to the nations and His witnesses in the world. Isaiah 49:8, Isaiah 43:10
Your unscriptural thinking that God has two plans and two peoples is totally refuted by Ephesians 4:4-6
Isn't that plank in your eye a tad uncomfortable? Matthew 7:1-5
In New Testament scripture, you have failed to read or understand that the Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to a nation that bears fruit. Matthew 21:43
Not all of Israel are true Israel; Romans 9:8
It is with us [Christians] in mind, God has made a better plan...... Hebrews 11:40
But in a way, you are right, as it is mainly Western people, descended from the 10 Northern tribes who are Christians, therefore we are mostly Israelite by descent as well as by faith. All true believers ARE that nation that Jesus referred to and our destiny is to re-inhabit all of the Holy Land and fulfil God's original purpose for His people, of being a light to the nations and His witnesses in the world. Isaiah 49:8, Isaiah 43:10
Your unscriptural thinking that God has two plans and two peoples is totally refuted by Ephesians 4:4-6
Isn't that plank in your eye a tad uncomfortable? Matthew 7:1-5
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
No, that is NOT what the Bible says. Paul wrote that: "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." (Rom 9:6) Paul does not say that all Christians are Israelite. You do, and so you confuse what is written for Israel who does not believe in the Lord with us. That is the basis for your error - which you cannot correct anymore than you can scientifically explain how a coronal mass ejection is going to burn with fire a third of the earth without having the sun literally explode.keras said:
But Paul makes a definite distinction between Israeli and Gentile throughout his plea for his people to the very people to whom he is ministering. In context with the previous passage is this:
Rom 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Jesus is the capstone: the stumbling block for the Jews. It is through Him that we are washed clean.
He is the litmus test that separates Jew from Christian.
But God has not forgotten His people, and He will draw them through the fire, refining them so as to be more rare than all the gold of Ophir, which had exceedingly fine gold.
Those passages concerning God's Wrath falling upon Israel are not for us.
You confuse much rabbi keras and you should not teach.
For not all who are descended from Israel are Israelites. Romans 9:6
This means that there are other people than Jews now deemed as Israelite. Simple really, as from the Advent of Jesus, any other peoples can become true Israelite by believing in Him. They are designated into tribes as described in Revelation 7.
As I have said, your error is making there to be two peoples in God's plan. Wrong! and refuted by Jesus Himself: John 10:16, John 17:22-23 and 1 Cor. 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6
Re the forthcoming CME: God knows exactly how He will burn 1/3 of the earth, destroy His enemies and reset civilization. Just as He flooded the earth in Noah's day.
This means that there are other people than Jews now deemed as Israelite. Simple really, as from the Advent of Jesus, any other peoples can become true Israelite by believing in Him. They are designated into tribes as described in Revelation 7.
As I have said, your error is making there to be two peoples in God's plan. Wrong! and refuted by Jesus Himself: John 10:16, John 17:22-23 and 1 Cor. 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6
Re the forthcoming CME: God knows exactly how He will burn 1/3 of the earth, destroy His enemies and reset civilization. Just as He flooded the earth in Noah's day.
I don't agree with your POV. keraskeras said:
Rom 9:8 states;
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
God made a better plan/NEW covenant, because the old one was ineffectual. He opened it up so that ALL may be saved, even though ALL are not. He loves the WORLD, not just Israelites. The NC is indeed superior to the old one, in all those areas.
The OC and NC are all part of God's over arching plan for man....which was ALL in effect prior to Him even starting creation. No different than Him creating Adam & Even and commanding them to do something His foreknowledge knew would not work.
Stan J, who did God make that Promise to?
To Abraham, as we see in Hebrews 6:13-17. God will keep His promise to Abraham, the majority of His righteous people will be true descendants, Jews, Western people from the ten Tribes; namely us, plus people from every race and language. Rev 7:9
So we do have the same POV, all can be saved, but not all will be. There are two peoples on earth: those who accept Jesus and those who reject Him.
To Abraham, as we see in Hebrews 6:13-17. God will keep His promise to Abraham, the majority of His righteous people will be true descendants, Jews, Western people from the ten Tribes; namely us, plus people from every race and language. Rev 7:9
So we do have the same POV, all can be saved, but not all will be. There are two peoples on earth: those who accept Jesus and those who reject Him.
Yes, that's right, it was Abraham, but you can't just cherry pick scripture OUT of context. Read Rom 9:6-9 to see who TRUE descendants are, which does not make Gentiles part of it, unless they are physically connect by DNA to Isaac.keras said:
There are 12 lost tribes, but this still does not make gentiles one of them, which is why the prophecy in Rev 7:1-8 and 14:1-5 happens.
The world in a group as a whole, John 3:16. There are of course those who accept the promise of salvation, Jesus, or there are those who do not. I guess if you want to use sheep and goats as an example, it is two groups.
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