Why do people believe in a rapture?
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If we're in the clouds and not on earth, isn't that removal? I can't believe it's come to this. This is sad.keras said:
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Jhn 14:2. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.keras said:
Jesus told the Disiples He was from Heaven, and that He would return to Heaven.
So they understood quite well, that the Father's house was in Heaven, and that it was there Jesus would prepare a place for them.
And based on that (if) - He would return and take them there - to Heaven. It's that plain. There is no other reasonable way to put it, unless of course, you're on some sort of jihad to destroy the hope Paul tells us to share with one another.
We are seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.
Jesus told us we would be gathered out of the field and taken to the barn (of Heaven) in Mt 13:30.
If you don't look where the information is, or can't see it for your prejudice, then it's no wonder you don't know it.
If we're in the clouds and not on earth, isn't that removal? I do feel like I'm teaching a first grader at this point.keras said:
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
snatched away into the clouds = removal from earth.
ok class, so if we are in the air in the clouds are we still on the ground?
jimmy, is your hand raised or are you picking your nose.
snatched away into the clouds = removal from earth.
ok class, so if we are in the air in the clouds are we still on the ground?
jimmy, is your hand raised or are you picking your nose.
I have never denied that there will be a 'harpazo' at the Return of Jesus. But in no way is it a removal to heaven, it is simply a gathering by Jesus' angels to where He is, namely in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31 explains it.
It is all that must happen before that glorious Day, that I concentrate on.
So you can't, won't, don't want to see, the true facts of what God has planned for His people? That's a shame really, because what He has promised is actually better that being parked in heaven. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Hosea 14:4-7, Amos 9:13-15
It is all that must happen before that glorious Day, that I concentrate on.
So you can't, won't, don't want to see, the true facts of what God has planned for His people? That's a shame really, because what He has promised is actually better that being parked in heaven. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Hosea 14:4-7, Amos 9:13-15
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
He's citing Scripture again without quoting it, so I know it's a red herring and just another misuse of OT prophecy for the Jews (Israel), and so rabbi keras tries to apply what is meant for stubborn, unrepentant Israel to the Elect of Christianity.
God will save "all" of unbelieving Israel as Paul said. The Millennium is His Design to do that. Taking passages meant for natural born Israel, from whom God will spare a remnant, and applying it to the Church, is another fundamental flaw in rabbi keras' teaching.
You talk of theory and falsehood but neither have you been able to produce any tangible evidence in the Bible that WE are set back down in the field of this world which is to be burned.
Not only do you ignore or dismiss those verses which do show a Heavenly destination for the Great Multitude gathered on the Day of the Lord, but you blatantly misassign us as the woman Israel when Revelation 12:17 makes the distinction between her and us as her offspring.
Parked in Heaven is a terrible thing? I don't think so. We will have new immortal and imperishable bodies, set in right relation not only to each other but now with the presence of our Savior and Champion Jesus and even moreover, with our Father in Heaven before whose throne we will stand!
One day in Heaven is better than a thousand anywhere else.
God will save "all" of unbelieving Israel as Paul said. The Millennium is His Design to do that. Taking passages meant for natural born Israel, from whom God will spare a remnant, and applying it to the Church, is another fundamental flaw in rabbi keras' teaching.
You talk of theory and falsehood but neither have you been able to produce any tangible evidence in the Bible that WE are set back down in the field of this world which is to be burned.
Not only do you ignore or dismiss those verses which do show a Heavenly destination for the Great Multitude gathered on the Day of the Lord, but you blatantly misassign us as the woman Israel when Revelation 12:17 makes the distinction between her and us as her offspring.
Parked in Heaven is a terrible thing? I don't think so. We will have new immortal and imperishable bodies, set in right relation not only to each other but now with the presence of our Savior and Champion Jesus and even moreover, with our Father in Heaven before whose throne we will stand!
One day in Heaven is better than a thousand anywhere else.
No, the holy Land with Jerusalem as its capital remains on earth until the end of the Millennium, when it will be replaced with a new heaven and a new earth.ATP said:
Please point out exactly where in Revelation it says Christians will be raptured to heaven.
Why do you want me to write out my Bible references in full, Marcus? Just put your cursor on them and read the passage.
Your misunderstanding of God's plan for His people is abysmal. Thinking there are separate plans for the Church and Israel is the worst. Ephesians 4:4-6 Get this: all who truly believe in God and accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, ARE Israelites. I have explained the two groups in Rev 12:17. They are given in Daniel 11:32, as those Israelites who violate the Covenant and those who keep their faith. Also in Zechariah 14:2, those who remain and those who go into exile.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Your track record demands a full printing of what you cite rabbi keras, and while you're at it, some authoritative commentary so we can see how badly you twist Scripture to suit your own designs.
Of course Jerusalem is on earth, but scripture says we go UP in the clouds, not to Jerusalem lol.keras said:
Notice that the angles, elders and the four living creatures all surround this throne.keras said:
Rev 7:9-17 NIV is rapture, and Rev 4:1-2 NIV, Rev 14:2 NIV, Rev 15:5 NIV and Rev 19:1 NIV confirms that this throne is in heaven...
Rev 7:9 NIV After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Rev 19:1-4 NIV After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
Rev 4:1-6 NIV After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back.
Rev 5:1-8 NIV Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” 6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people
Rev 6:1 NIV I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!”
Rev 7:11 NIV All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 14:2-3 NIV And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Rev 15:5-8 NIV After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened. 6Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Rev 19:1-4 NIV After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants." 3 And again they shouted: "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever." 4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: "Amen, Hallelujah!"
Scripture says we go to live in all of the Holy Land:ATP said:
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 62:10 [/SIZE]Hoist a signal to the peoples, clear a road, go out you people of Zion.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 49:11-12[/SIZE] I shall make a highway for My people, they come from every direction.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 40:1-4 [/SIZE]Comfort My people, their penalty is paid. Prepare a highway through the waste lands, make smooth the way.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 11:11-12 [/SIZE]On that Day, the Lord will recover the remnant of His people from the four corners of the world.
[SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 37:21-22 [/SIZE]I am going to take the Israelites from their places of exile around the world, assemble them and restore them to their own soil. Israel and Judah will rejoin and one leader will rule over them all. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
[SIZE=11pt]Micah 2:12 [/SIZE]I shall assemble the whole House of Jacob [the 12 tribes of Israel] and gather you like sheep into a sheep yard, the Lord will lead the way. 1 Cor. 10:4
[SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 34:11-12 [/SIZE]Now I will search for My sheep...where they are scattered on the Day of wrath.
[SIZE=11pt]Hosea 8:10 [/SIZE]I will now round up My people....
[SIZE=11pt]Zechariah 8:7-8 [/SIZE]I am about to rescue My people, from all the countries they are in and bring them back to live in Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 60:1-9 [/SIZE]Jerusalem, your Light will shine on you, your sons and daughters are coming back to you. Vessels assemble to bring your children from far away.
[SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 16:15-16[/SIZE] I shall hunt for My people from wherever they are now dispersed and bring them back to the Land that I gave to their forefathers.
[SIZE=11pt]Zechariah 10:8-10[/SIZE] I shall whistle to call in My people, for I have delivered them and they will be as many as they used to be. Though dispersed among the nations, they will remember Me. I will lead them into the Land until there is no more room for them.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 52:11-12 G[/SIZE]o out of Babylon, [the ungodly nations] keep yourselves pure, you will not leave like fugitives or in urgent haste. The Lord will go before you, to guide and guard you.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 66:20 [/SIZE]From every nation you will be brought, on every kind of transport...
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 35:8-10 [/SIZE]A highway will appear, the Way of Holiness, by that way all those the Lord has redeemed will enter Zion, with shouts of triumph and great joy.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 49:9-13[/SIZE] I will lead My people along paths beside streams, they will neither hunger or thirst, nor will scorching heat affect them. They come, some from far away, in every direction, on level highways, for the Lord comforts them in their distress.
[SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 31:8-9 [/SIZE]See how I bring My people from every part of the earth, the blind, lame and pregnant women among them. They are a vast company, weeping as they come home, but I shall comfort them and lead them on smooth paths.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 30:21 [/SIZE]A voice from behind you will tell you the right path to follow.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 58:11-12 [/SIZE]The Lord will be your guide and will satisfy your needs in the desert. You will rebuild the ruins, you will be called the restorers of the Land.
[SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 39:25-29 [/SIZE]I will show compassion and restore all Israel, they will live once more in their homeland, free from their enemies. I will leave none of them behind.
[SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 20:42 [/SIZE]You will know that I am the Lord, [not present as yet, before the Return of Jesus] when I bring you home to the Land of Israel. The Land I swore to give to your ancestors.
[SIZE=11pt]Psalm 68:7-10 Lord, [/SIZE]You go before Your people, marching through the barren wastelands. When Your Land languishes You restore it. You send rain and there Your people settle. In Your goodness, You provide for the needy.
[SIZE=11pt]Hosea 2:14-23 [/SIZE]Now, I shall woo them and lead them into the wilderness, I will restore them ......they will be My new sowing in the Land. I will say: ‘You are My people’ and they will say: ‘ You are our God’. [The Lord is not seen – the same as the 1st Exodus]
[SIZE=11pt]Micah 7:11-12 [/SIZE]The Day the people return to the Land will be a Day to extend your boundaries.
[SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 36:8-12 [/SIZE]The Land will become fruitful and the whole House of Israel will settle there, they will increase, more prosperous then in ancient days. [SIZE=11pt]Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.[/SIZE]
Keep in mind that true Christians ARE Israelites. Romans 8:8
I don't see that verse that says Christians will be taken to heaven. Where is it please?
Yes, and that begins during the 1,000 year reign in Rev 20:4-6 NIV.keras said:
The Great Multitude are Christians from all around the world. The great multitude that has been in heaven since Rev 7:9 NIV. Do you need glasses sir...keras said:
Rev 7:9 NIV After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Rev 19:1-4 NIV After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
No, if you properly understood God's plan to have a people in His Land preparing for the coming Kingdom of Jesus, you would know they go there before the Return and His Millennium reignATP said:
Read Ezekiel 34:11-31 and note verse 30 They will know that I, their Lord, am with them.......not physically present, but spiritually, in the same manner as for the ancient Israelites. 1 Cor 10:4
The great multitude of Rev 7:9 is on earth. Nothing in that chapter says they are anywhere else than on earth, as the first 3 verses describe.
Who the multitude are in Rev 19:1, we are not told, but this happens before the wedding feast of the Lamb and immediately after that comes the glorious Return. I relate this to the harpazo of 1 Thess 4:17
No, the great multitude in Rev 7 and Rev 19 are the same people keras.keras said:
The throne in Rev 7 is in heaven, along with the angels, the elders and the four living creatures.
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
Keras,ATP said:
Revelation 7:9
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Note: Where is the throne on Earth then?
Revelation 19:1
Threefold Hallelujah Over Babylon’s Fall
19 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God
I wont argue that they may be different multitudes, but I do believe both events took place in Heaven.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Very good Born_Again. I don't use Revelation 19 much to show the Church in Heaven because the inference is too subtle for most elemental arguments, but I am glad that you see it too.
God's throne was not moved between the time John first saw it and when the Great Multitude arrive. The vision of the 144,000 is just that: a vision. God can do that; He can "show" people what will be. He has that kind of command of time and space that distant, future events can be seen by mortal men living on the earth like with the prophets. How much easier is it when they are before Him in Heaven for Him to show John what will be in the first part of Revelation chapter 7, so the second part is right where John was all along.
God's throne was not moved between the time John first saw it and when the Great Multitude arrive. The vision of the 144,000 is just that: a vision. God can do that; He can "show" people what will be. He has that kind of command of time and space that distant, future events can be seen by mortal men living on the earth like with the prophets. How much easier is it when they are before Him in Heaven for Him to show John what will be in the first part of Revelation chapter 7, so the second part is right where John was all along.
People:Born_Again said:
They are not different multitudes.
The great multitude in Rev 7 and 19 are the same christians
from all around the world who have been caught up in rapture.
We need to stop adding to scripture, and inventing things that aren't there.
Purely your opinion. Shared by others who also believe in the false rapture removal to heaven.ATP said:
The Bible does not say the Rev 7:14 group are in heaven. This gathering occurs soon after the Sixth seal worldwide disaster and is paralleled by dozens of prophesies saying how the Lord's people will be gathered into the Holy Land. Psalm 105:43-45, Psalm 37:29, Isaiah 32:15-20
That is the truth of God's plan, there is simply no discernible reason for God to take people to heaven, especially without testing their faith.
The Great Multitude here are the same people...............keras said:
Rev 7:10 NIV And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.
Rev 19:1 NIV After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
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