Why do people believe in a rapture?

[ATP]

However, if you want to say that you know when the Great Tribulation is going to end, then you claim to know as much as the Father in Heaven; and I know that is not so.

Matt 24 says the great trib will be cut short because of the elect, but nobody knows how short. 1.75 is my best guess.

Do you really want to tell me that you could last a year and nine months without utilities, without being able to buy food or get water? Will they let you live in your house or apartment for that long without payment? Have you actually thought what you're saying through with all its implications and ramifications?

Nobody said it would be easy, but this is the only conclusion I see. The Great Trib and the Day of the Lord are not the same event.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I thought about for all of 5 seconds: nope. 1.75 is just a product of your fantasy.

I never said the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord were the same event. Where did you get the idea anyone was saying they were?

 

[ATP]

I thought about for all of 5 seconds: nope. 1.75 is just a product of your fantasy.

I never said the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord were the same event. Where did you get the idea anyone was saying they were?

Actually, we can know the day of rapture 1 Thess 5:4. It will occur around the last 3.5 years on the Feast of Trumpets and on the Day of the Lord.

Ok, so you agree the GT and the Day of the Lord are separate. So why would you disagree that the sixth seal is open after the GT and right before the Day of the Lord in the last 3.5 years? We can clearly see that the cosmic disturbances precede rapture, and then rapture occurs right before or on the Day of the Lord..

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Isa 34:8 KJV For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Matt 24:29-35 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that ite is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You can't know the day the Rapture happens because it happens on the Day of the Lord, and Jesus said no one but the Father knows the day and the hour. That's basic. Read Mt 24:36.

I don't disagree that the sixth Seal is opened after the Great Tribulation. It is the very signs in the sun/moon/star event which put the world on notice that Jesus is coming back. Concurrent with those celestial signs, 3 Angels come. The first spreads the Gospel so all can hear it - fulfilling Jesus' setting of that as a precedent for His parousia. The second and third tell the wicked what's coming for them, and they hide fearing God's coming Wrath. Except one thing: that's not the first thing to happen when Jesus returns.

 

[ATP]

You can't know the day the Rapture happens because it happens on the Day of the Lord, and Jesus said no one but the Father knows the day and the hour. That's basic. Read Mt 24:36.

I don't disagree that the sixth Seal is opened after the Great Tribulation. It is the very signs in the sun/moon/star event which put the world on notice that Jesus is coming back. Concurrent with those celestial signs, 3 Angels come. The first spreads the Gospel so all can hear it - fulfilling Jesus' setting of that as a precedent for His parousia. The second and third tell the wicked what's coming for them, and they hide fearing God's coming Wrath. Except one thing: that's not the first thing to happen when Jesus returns.

Yes, we can know the day. Matt 24:36 is an idiom Marcus. The Father is going to reveal it to his elect so they are not in darkness 1 Thess 5:4. Jesus is coming like a thief to nonbelievers, not believers bro. There will even be signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake to prepare the elect. After we see the abomination of desolation go down, then look for His return on the Feast of Trumpets, either that year or the following year.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Mt 24:36 is not an "idiom".

It is a prophetic fact.

We can know when the time is ripe, which is what my eschatological method does, and still not know the day or hour.

 

[ATP]

Mt 24:36 is not an "idiom".

It is a prophetic fact.

We can know when the time is ripe, which is what my eschatological method does, and still not know the day or hour.

Matt 24:36 is an idiom.

Jesus comes like a thief to nonbelievers bro, not believers. Believers will be well aware of when the Day of the Lord comes. Also, why would Jesus say we cannot know the day, but Paul says we can? :mellow:

"and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away"...
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief"

Notice the comparison of nonbelievers getting drunk and believers staying sober...

Nonbelievers
1. As it was in the days of Noah
2. people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage
3. and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away
4. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape
5. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

Believers
1. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you
2. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief
3. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
4. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.
5. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
6. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
7. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Matt 24:37-39 NIV As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

1 Thess 5:1-10 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Mt 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

I don't know what you are talking about. Mt 24:36 is not an idiom, it is a declarative statement by Jesus and as such, it is a prophetic fact.

Idiom (n) 1. A manner of speaking that is natural to native speakers of a language, 2. Characteristic of a specific group of people, 3. The usage or vocabulary that is characteristic of a specific group of people.

 

[ATP]

Mt 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

I don't know what you are talking about. Mt 24:36 is not an idiom, it is a declarative statement by Jesus and as such, it is a prophetic fact.

Idiom (n) 1. A manner of speaking that is natural to native speakers of a language, 2. Characteristic of a specific group of people, 3. The usage or vocabulary that is characteristic of a specific group of people.

Matt 24 and 1 Thess 5 separates nonbelievers and believers. Re-read post 47 since you obviously ignored it..http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idiom?s=t

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

What you posted is basically the same that I got from the visual thesaurus, and if you can't figure out a simple definition, I'm supposed to follow your exegesis of end-time prophecy?

1.745 year quarters? Yeah, right...

 

[ATP]

What you posted is basically the same that I got from the visual thesaurus, and if you can't figure out a simple definition, I'm supposed to follow your exegesis of end-time prophecy?

1.745 year quarters? Yeah, right...

You are still ignoring what I wrote. Matt 24 and 1 Thess 5 separates nonbelievers and believers.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I don't read 1Th 5 as having as its theme, separation. Like most of the Pauline Epistles, it calls for repentance - shedding the old pagan ways Paul's churches knew and the culture in which they lived to live a new life in Christ Jesus.

Mt 24 also does not "separate" nonbelievers as its central theme as much as Jesus answers the crucial question of what would be the sign of His Coming of the end of the age - and as far as "age" I read it as the 'Church Age'.

And neither are idiomatic in their presentation.

 

[ATP]

I don't read 1Th 5 as having as its theme, separation. Like most of the Pauline Epistles, it calls for repentance - shedding the old pagan ways Paul's churches knew and the culture in which they lived to live a new life in Christ Jesus.

Mt 24 also does not "separate" nonbelievers as its central theme as much as Jesus answers the crucial question of what would be the sign of His Coming of the end of the age - and as far as "age" I read it as the 'Church Age'.

And neither are idiomatic in their presentation.

Well, it does separate them brother. Notice the word "thief" in both. Jesus comes like a thief to nonbelievers bro 1 Thess 5:4...

Matt 24:37-44 NIV As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

1 Thess 5:1-10 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Coming like a thief is a descriptive phrase.

Jesus' parousia is unexpected
He will break in.
And He steals the most important thing in the world: us!

We won't be surprised, but then again, we also won't know the day nor hour.

 

[ATP]

We won't be surprised, but then again, we also won't know the day nor hour.

Then God is a liar..1 Thess 5:4 NIV But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Yeah, that's what Paul is saying. We are not in darkness that this day should surprise us like a thief.

It won't surprise us like a thief will; we will be expecting it; we are not in darkness.

And quit saying that I am making God out to be a liar with your 'then God is liar' whenever a Bible verse gives you comprehension fits.

GOD DOES NOT LIE.

He will use a lying spirit though to get the job done if need be...

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

And even though we will not be taken by surprise, indeed, we'll be hoping and praying for it - STILL no one will know when that Day will come.

And when that blessed Day of our Redemption comes, STILL, you won't know the hour at which He will descend to touchdown on the Mount of Olives.

 

[ATP]

Yeah, that's what Paul is saying. We are not in darkness that this day should surprise us like a thief.

It won't surprise us like a thief will; we will be expecting it; we are not in darkness.

Exactly. Otherwise God is in contradiction. I'm glad you finally agree.

 

[ATP]

And even though we will not be taken by surprise, indeed, we'll be hoping and praying for it - STILL no one will know when that Day will come.

STILL? Wouldn't that make God contradictory? It's an idiom, even for the hard headed.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

It's not an idiom.

It's a fact.

When the Great Tribulation hits and you have to hunker down and do without -
- when they're coming for you because the neighbors turned you in...
- when your numbers dwindle because they caught you out in the street for a "worship test"...
- when your family is dying for lack of water and food...

We'll know the time is nigh as our numbers are becoming quite few...
- and STILL you and I won't know if it'll be tomorrow or the next day that the sun/moon/star event shakes things up with an earthquake and an unnaturally darkened sky.