Why do people believe in a rapture?

[ATP]

ATP: How long can you go without gasoline, electricity, water, and sewer? How long can you go without food?

God provides, no? Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 

[keras]

So the signs in the sun, moon stars and earthquake are different for Matt 24:29, and Rev 6:12-14? I don't understand. So it happens twice?

Yes they are two events. They are described differently and are separate events.
The first will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will come as a thief, unexpectedly.
The second is the Return of Jesus, heralded by the signs listed in Matthew 24:29

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

ATP: That verse is for the Remnant Jews fleeing Judea.

The applicable part for you and me is at the end of chapter 12 when the dragon goes after those who hold onto the testimony of Jesus.

And no, it doesn't happen twice.

 

[ATP]

Yes they are two events. They are described differently and are separate events.
The first will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will come as a thief, unexpectedly.
The second is the Return of Jesus, heralded by the signs listed in Matthew 24:29

Describe the first for me. If it's not the rapture, what exactly is coming as a thief that brings disaster?

ATP: That verse is for the Remnant Jews fleeing Judea.

The applicable part for you and me is at the end of chapter 12 when the dragon goes after those who hold onto the testimony of Jesus.

And no, it doesn't happen twice.

God will protect the Jews, yes. The church on the other hand, Rev 3:10 is church before rapture. Rev 12:17 and Rev 13:7 is church after rapture, those who come to faith after rapture. I don't think the church after rapture will last very long. Waiting a little longer is not a long time. I might be wrong. If that's true, then posttrib rapture is false, because there won't be a church remnant left to rapture at the end of the seven years!

Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Rev 3:10 happens within the first vision of the Churches. There are a lot of tidbits of wisdom you can discern from the message to the Churches. Rev 3:10 is not specifically tied to the Rapture, nor specifically to the Great Tribulation. While it mentions a test, and I refer to the first of the two laws that make the Great Tribulation so terrible it nearly wipes out the Elect from the face of the earth as the "Daniel test" of faith, we cannot tie the two inexorably as the same. Christians have faced other tests as well that are just as deadly. Still, what 3:10 means for us is that if we endure patiently, God will watch out for us. This watching contains the image of a sentry, and implies guarding. It does not purport to total protection though. It does assure us that our souls will not be lost.

Rev 12:17 happens at the end of the second of the two twin parallel accounts within chapter 12. The fleeing Jews do so at the midpoint invasion/erection of the abomination. When Satan can't get "a hold" of these Jews as he ensnares the rest, he turns his unwanted attention to us with the Great Tribulation. A Pre-Wrath Rapture has not yet happened.

Rev 13:7 does not happen after 12:17, but before the midpoint abomination as described in 13:14-15. This verse is part of the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' and stands next in importance to the previous broad overview as is found in the Seal/Scroll chronicle of chapters 4-11. A Pre-Wrath Rapture also has not happened. That happens in chapter 14 with Jesus' Harvest from the clouds.

Rev 6:11 with the fifth Seal is before the Rapture, which happens with the sixth Seal and results in the Great Multitude being rescued out of the Great Tribulation as defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse in Mt 24.

 

[ATP]

Rev 3:10 happens within the first vision of the Churches. There are a lot of tidbits of wisdom you can discern from the message to the Churches. Rev 3:10 is not specifically tied to the Rapture, nor specifically to the Great Tribulation. While it mentions a test, and I refer to the first of the two laws that make the Great Tribulation so terrible it nearly wipes out the Elect from the face of the earth as the "Daniel test" of faith, we cannot tie the two inexorably as the same. Christians have faced other tests as well that are just as deadly. Still, what 3:10 means for us is that if we endure patiently, God will watch out for us. This watching contains the image of a sentry, and implies guarding. It does not purport to total protection though. It does assure us that our souls will not be lost.

Some might say the seven letters to the seven churches is dual prophecy, representing the church of old and end times church.

Rev 6:11 with the fifth Seal is before the Rapture, which happens with the sixth Seal and results in the Great Multitude being rescued out of the Great Tribulation as defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse in Mt 24.

If the fifth seal occurs before rapture then there will be nobody left to rapture...

Rev 6:11 NIV Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

1 Thess 4:15-17 NIV According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

which begs the question, if Rev 6:11 NIV says all believers will be killed then how can they still be alive in 1 Thess 4:15-17 NIV?

 

[keras]

Describe the first for me. If it's not the rapture, what exactly is coming as a thief that brings disaster?

As I say, it is the Sixth Seal that will come unexpectedly, as the sudden destruction of the ungodly. There is no rapture removal even hinted at this event. Plenty of prophecy details the cause and extent of this worldwide disaster, but the min devastation will be to the Middle east region.
Whereas, the Return of Jesus will be known by anyone with a Bible as coming exactly 1260 days after the AC desecrates the Temple. Also by the armies of the AC advancing to attack Jerusalem.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If the fifth seal occurs before rapture then there will be nobody left to rapture...

Rev 6:11 NIV Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

1 Thess 4:15-17 NIV According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

which begs the question, if Rev 6:11 NIV says all believers will be killed then how can they still be alive in 1 Thess 4:15-17 NIV?

Before everyone is killed, God the Father initiates the Day of the Lord with the sun/moon/star event. Jesus gives us the keystone passage in the Olivet Discourse which allows us to sequence the sixth Seal to the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27. (The abomination & the sun/moon/star event are put in order.)

The Olivet Discourse does not disclose all. Additional information about the sun/moon/star event is given with the sixth Seal which includes two earthquakes, one prior and after, and the scrolling of the sky which I link to the sign of the Son of Man descending from Heaven. Literally, this would be as a dimensional rift.

Additional information on the time of the sixth Seal Day of the Lord can be found in another detailed, parallel account of Revelation in chapters 13-16. Along with the same 144,000 revealed with the sixth Seal, we find 3 Angels go and warn the world. The first carries the Gospel and some will come to believe right then and there and so be saved. Another carries a warning of what is to come which the wicked fear and so they hide in caves as described in the sixth Seal.

So in keeping with Jesus' Word in the Olivet Discourse, your fear that the fifth Seal means ALL is set aside. Not all will be martyred, some die of thirst and hunger too. All the number strictly limits those souls to martyrs. Still, as Paul says, some will remain and be still alive because God the Father abruptly cuts short this terrible time of unjust suffering and execution of His people.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

As I say, it is the Sixth Seal that will come unexpectedly, as the sudden destruction of the ungodly. There is no rapture removal even hinted at this event.

At best, this is just an example of rabbi keras misreading the Bible. At worse, it is an outright lie meant to destroy hope.

Jesus says after He comes on the clouds of Heaven (as witnessed in 1Th 3:13 from an observer-true position) that He will send His angels and they will gather His Elect.

That's not a mere hint: that is a fact.

Likewise, in Revelation chapters 13-16, following the abomination of chapter 13, we see the 144,000 (like with the sixth Seal) and then we see Jesus coming on the clouds to reap the Harvest.

That is no hint either; it is a fact.

(There is no real discrepancy between Jesus reaping and Him sending out His Angels. Jesus initiates, and then the King has His Servants finish the job.)

So rabbi keras is out on a mission, tilting at windmills, to destroy the hope that Paul says we should encourage each other with. His track record on exegesis is so poor, you'd think he'd have some shame and correct himself before uttering his conclusions in public, but unfortunately, no.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Whereas, the Return of Jesus will be known by anyone with a Bible as coming exactly 1260 days after the AC desecrates the Temple.

rabbi keras "knows" the exact Day Jesus will come.

But Jesus said only the Father in Heaven knows that.

You choose whom you should believe. I believe Jesus and I think that rabbi keras is a terrible rabbi.

 

[ATP]

Plenty of prophecy details the cause and extent of this worldwide disaster,

The first will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will come as a thief, unexpectedly.

That's all well and good, but can you please state the cause along with scripture.

The reason I'm asking is because the word "thief" in the Bible always relates to Jesus coming followed by a worldwide disaster.

Before everyone is killed, God the Father initiates the Day of the Lord with the sun/moon/star event. Jesus gives us the keystone passage in the Olivet Discourse which allows us to sequence the sixth Seal to the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27. (The abomination & the sun/moon/star event are put in order.)

But it doesn't say "before", it says "until", full number meaning those who come to faith after rapture, dual prophecy...Rev 6:11 NIV Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Also notice the wrath of God in the fifth seal, which tells me the church after rapture will all be killed before the first trumpet sounds, which also proves postrib rapture to be false...Rev 6:10 NIV They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Yes, when the fifth Seal is opened, and the second Heaven is revealed, their number is not yet complete. The fifth Seal comes before the end of the one 'seven' and at least two people - the Two Witnesses - are needed to complete the number God the Father has planned.

I see no Wrath of God at the fifth Seal. Maybe you can tell me where you see it.

Yes, any of the Elect left after the Rapture will be martyred. That is also the case with the Two Witnesses.

A Pre-Wrath eschatology puts the Rapture after the Great Tribulation, so in a way, it is post-tribulation. It is not Post-Trib as most use that term though for the last day of the one 'seven'.

 

[ATP]

I see no Wrath of God at the fifth Seal. Maybe you can tell me where you see it.

Judging the inhabitants and avenging the saints blood is about God pouring out trumpets and bowls on the nonbelievers. Judging and avenging comes after persecution...

Rev 6:9-11 NIV When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

A Pre-Wrath eschatology puts the Rapture after the Great Tribulation, so in a way, it is post-tribulation. It is not Post-Trib as most use that term though for the last day of the one 'seven'.

Wait, what?? How so? I see pre-wrath doctrine during mid-trib right after the abomination of desolation..2 Thess 2:3.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Until you judge... God hasn't judged them at that point, nor is He actively judging them with physical desolation (that He has decreed) at that point either.

Those desolations, from Daniel 9:26, are contained within the Scroll. All seven Seals must be opened before the Words on the Scroll can reveal what has been decreed. Then, and only then does God's Wrath go forth with the first Trumpet. (And that supplies the fire and blood for the OT Day of the Lord Wrath which follows the Rapture.)

So God's Wrath, while mentioned, is not yet in action.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Wait, what?? How so? I see pre-wrath doctrine during mid-trib right after the abomination of desolation..2 Thess 2:3.

Because people call the one 'seven' the Tribulation (Period), some confusion on terms results.

So they speak of a seven-year Tribulation.
Pre-Trib then refers to the Rapture happening at any time before the one 'seven';
Mid-Trib refers to the Rapture happening at the 3 and 1/2 year mark, and
Post-Trib calls for the Rapture to happen on the last day of the one 'seven'.

Scripture never actually calls the one 'seven' "the Tribulation Period" though.
The only defined Tribulation is the Great Tribulation; Jesus defines it as starting at the midpoint with the AOD and being cut short by the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord, and so thus ending then too.

Pre-Wrath is not timed Pre, Mid, or Post "Tribulation Period" as most casual people use the term.
Pre-Wrath sets no date, just an order like with what you see in 2Th 2:1-8.

Because Jesus gives us the order of specific and unique events in the Olivet Discourse, Pre-Wrath starts with the midpoint abomination of desolation, then orders the Great Tribulation, then the sun/moon/star event, then the Sign of the Son of Man, and THEN the Rapture.

A Pre-Wrath Rapture happens after the Mid-Trib as people use that term, but before the classical "last day" Post-Trib position.
The Pre-Wrath Rapture does happen after the Great Tribulation, though, so it preserves that sense of being post-tribulation because we must go through that time of intense persecution.
The Pre-Wrath Rapture also comes before God's Wrath falls upon the wicked, burning them in the field of this world. In this respect, it preserves the sense of escape Pre-Trib adherents wish with their eschatology.

Confusing? Yes. Does that explanation concerning the overlap of terms help?

 

[ATP]

Maybe the last 3.5 years is split into 1.75 years/1.75 years. Great Tribulation first 1.75, then the Day of the Lord/God's Wrath 1.75. Matt 24:22.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Scripture only calls for one-half of the one 'seven'.

It is called 1260 days, 42 months, or a year/(2) years/half a year (time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 years).

The one 'seven' is split into two halves because they're different. It's like the rise and fall of the anti-Christ with the midpoint abomination being his apex, and the tripwire for God's heroic response.

The 1290 days and 1335 days indicate two additional time periods between the one 'seven' and the Millennium. This allows for the transit to Mount Zion and the Sukkot encampment there for the survivors of God's Wrath before they enter into God's peaceful reign on the earth.

 

[ATP]

Scripture only calls for one-half of the one 'seven'.

It is called 1260 days, 42 months, or a year/(2) years/half a year (time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 years).

The one 'seven' is split into two halves because they're different. It's like the rise and fall of the anti-Christ with the midpoint abomination being his apex, and the tripwire for God's heroic response.

The 1290 days and 1335 days indicate two additional time periods between the one 'seven' and the Millennium. This allows for the transit to Mount Zion and the Sukkot encampment there for the survivors of God's Wrath before they enter into God's peaceful reign on the earth.

The 1.75 year / 1.75 year I got from pre-wrath doctrine. It does make sense if you think about it.

The first 3.5 years are the seals and birth pains, and the last 3.5 years are split in between the great tribulation 1.75 year and then the day of the lord 1.75 year.

This is just the seven year trib I'm referring too. The rapture comes after the 1.75 year great trib, and before the day of the lord.

The 1.75 year great trib is not God's wrath. The day of the lord is God's wrath 1 Thess 5:9.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I've never heard of it, and you neat little by quarter division is not part of any "doctrine" I know. I can't even say there is a Pre-Wrath "doctrine" at all, except that we all use the order of Rapture then Wrath, and we're all in agreement that it comes after the midpoint abomination and ensuing Great Tribulation.

However, if you want to say that you know when the Great Tribulation is going to end, then you claim to know as much as the Father in Heaven; and I know that is not so.

Do you really want to tell me that you could last a year and nine months without utilities, without being able to buy food or get water? Will they let you live in your house or apartment for that long without payment? Have you actually thought what you're saying through with all its implications and ramifications?

 

[ATP]

I've never heard of it, and you neat little by quarter division is not part of any "doctrine" I know. I can't even say there is a Pre-Wrath "doctrine" at all, except that we all use the order of Rapture then Wrath, and we're all in agreement that it comes after the midpoint abomination and ensuing Great Tribulation.

However, if you want to say that you know when the Great Tribulation is going to end, then you claim to know as much as the Father in Heaven; and I know that is not so.

Do you really want to tell me that you could last a year and nine months without utilities, without being able to buy food or get water? Will they let you live in your house or apartment for that long without payment? Have you actually thought what you're saying through with all its implications and ramifications?

Think about it Marcus. When you go by 1.75 year / 1.75 year, all the pieces fit like a puzzle. The 1.75 year Great Tribulation is man's rebellion against man. The 1.75 year Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. There is a difference. The first four seals are opened in the first 3.5 years. The fifth seal is open right after the abomination of desolation at the beginning of the Great Trib, then comes the 1.75 year Great Trib, then the sixth seal is open after the Great Trib ends and right before the Day of the Lord.

Then the 1.75 year Day of the Lord, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls finishes off the seven years. It all fits together. Even the Olivet Discourse makes sense when we use this doctrine. The Great Trib is not God's wrath, rather it's man's rebellion against man! Nowhere in scripture does it say the Great Trib is longer than 1.75 years, nor does it say the Great Trib is God's wrath. - ATP