Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

[Rockerduck]

If you did not confess Jesus as your Lord with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead for your justification having turned away from your sin... they you have not been born again.

God has come upon ALL people and has chosen All for salvation as Jesus paid for them to be saved... but, they have to actually get born again before they are saved.

Narrow thinking. The Apostle Paul comes to mind as well as the Upper room at Pentecost. Jesus has appeared to many giving them a personal invitation. If you didn't read what I said, I am a born again from above, Holy Spirit filled, bible believing, saved by the blood of Jesus Christ Christian. Owned by Jesus

 

[St. SteVen]

I know some people like to pass judgments on others that confess to be sinners. This thread is not about that. And I often wonder why people fight the OSAS idea. I also don't believe in OSAS, but I believe in a version that allows for God to save people if he desires.

This is a great topic. Thanks.

Unfortunately OSAS is a derrogatory term against eternal security. (the real issue here)

The unfortunate result of the rejection of OSAS is eternal in-security. (the wait and see life of fear)
Here's my position as stated before on the forum.

We cannot, by an act of our own will, undo that which only God could do in the first place.

Did we save ourselves? (nope) Then we can't un-save ourselves.

Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's choice. And I don't believe it equals a loss of salvation.

 

[St. SteVen]

If you did not confess Jesus as your Lord with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead for your justification having turned away from your sin... they you have not been born again.

Say the magic words to be saved? Hocus pocus. Salvation by works.

God has come upon ALL people and has chosen All for salvation as Jesus paid for them to be saved... but, they have to actually get born again before they are saved.

That sounds contradictory.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Actually... God chose everyone!

But, only few answer His call to get born again, turn away from their sin to come abide in Him.

The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)

God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)

God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)

Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

"Actually... God chose everyone!

But, only few answer His call to get born again, turn away from their sin to come abide in Him."


I take it you are not a Calvinist, or predestined person.. though your statement of "Actually... God chose everyone!" is very Calvinist/predestned in idea. ( Neither am I BTW ...but it would be as much of a comfort as the OSAS belief.)

Calvin said

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).

According to Calvin... God predetermines to save some people and the others will be sent to eternal death (some say damned)

Here God assigns one or the other to everyone... just like your "Actually... God chose everyone!"

But he determines and free will is out the window.

 

[St. SteVen]

I feel so sorry for that horse. And the flies.

Huh?
I missed something here. - LOL
Please explain, thanks.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

I know some people like to pass judgments on others that confess to be sinners. This thread is not about that. And I often wonder why people fight the OSAS idea. I also don't believe in OSAS, but I believe in a version that allows for God to save people if he desires.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I think no one, the devil or man, can snatch God's people out of his hand. But they can reject God by free choice. Let's pray for the sinners that they are given power to overcome sin as well. As God only promotes righteousness in his word.

I'm reminded of the words of Jesus regarding people that would be jealous of God saving sinners:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Once observed an explanation with a calvinist about osas as it was not a license to sin. He must have quoted 30 verses to explain his position. In the end it sounded reasonably Christian. But it then begs the question why not just quote the bible in the first place. Upon closer examination, the osas doctrine is a means to avoid the nuances an contexts of the Scriptures. Basically a truism devoid of truth. Just a byword in a dinner conversation.

 

[St. SteVen]

I take it you are not a Calvinist, or predestined person.. though your statement of "Actually... God chose everyone!" is very Calvinist/predestned in idea. ( Neither am I BTW ...but it would be as much of a comfort as the OSAS belief.)

Wait...
"Actually... God chose everyone!" is very NOT Calvinist/predestned.
God saving everyone is universalist, not Calvinist. In Calvinism, only SOME are saved. (the Elect)

According to Calvin... God predetermines to save some people and the others will be sent to eternal death (some say damned)

There it is. SOME. (not all)

 

[dev553344]

This is a great topic. Thanks.

Unfortunately OSAS is a derrogatory term against eternal security. (the real issue here)

The unfortunate result of the rejection of OSAS is eternal in-security. (the wait and see life of fear)
Here's my position as stated before on the forum.

We cannot, by an act of our own will, undo that which only God could do in the first place.

Did we save ourselves? (nope) Then we can't un-save ourselves.

Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's choice. And I don't believe it equals a loss of salvation.

Well I don't think the devil or man can snatch people out of God's hand. But I do believe they can leave willingly.

 

[St. SteVen]

Once observed an explanation with a calvinist about osas as it was not a license to sin. He must have quoted 30 verses to explain his position. In the end it sounded reasonably Christian. But it then begs the question why not just quote the bible in the first place. Upon closer examination, the osas doctrine is a means to avoid the nuances an contexts of the Scriptures. Basically a truism devoid of truth. Just a byword in a dinner conversation.

But if you reject eternal security, what are you left with?

Wait and see?
A life of fear, knowing you could lose your salvation at any moment?
Or the fear that you were never saved in the first place?
Or that you would arrive in judgement thinking you had done everything right
only to be rejected on a technicality? Or that late in life you may lose
your mental faculties and disqualify yourself?
Madness.

Do you have the Holy Spirit?
(his seal of ownership... as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come)

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NIV
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit,
guaranteeing what is to come.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well I don't think the devil or man can snatch people out of God's hand. But I do believe they can leave willingly.

That's worth discussing.
OSAS, of course, stands for Once Saved Always Saved.
If someone chooses to walk away, how does God react?
Will he just let you go?

The Good Shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one.
And he carries them back to the fold.

I don't see leaving willingly as a loss of salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I know some people like to pass judgments on others that confess to be sinners. This thread is not about that. And I often wonder why people fight the OSAS idea. I also don't believe in OSAS, but I believe in a version that allows for God to save people if he desires.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I think no one, the devil or man, can snatch God's people out of his hand. But they can reject God by free choice. Let's pray for the sinners that they are given power to overcome sin as well. As God only promotes righteousness in his word.

I'm reminded of the words of Jesus regarding people that would be jealous of God saving sinners:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Why?

1. They think it is too easy
2. The think it allows people to sin all they want
3. They can not remove self from the equation (pride can not let go)
3. In the end, they just do not believe God.

 

[Lambano]

Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?​

Because if you make others afraid, it makes them easier to control. And if you're afraid yourself, you don't want the other guy to have the freedom you don't have. But I'm not really a cynic. Honest, I'm not.

Seriously, there are verses on both sides of the issue (Bible vs. Bible! Who will win?). Anybody who's been through the Calvinist-Arminian wars knows the verses, and this is the "P" on the TULIP.

 

[dev553344]

Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?​

Because if you make others afraid, it makes them easier to control. And if you're afraid yourself, you don't want the other guy to have the freedom you don't have. But I'm not really a cynic. Honest, I'm not.

Seriously, there are verses on both sides of the issue (Bible vs. Bible! Who will win?). Anybody who's been through the Calvinist-Arminian wars knows the verses, and this is the "P" on the TULIP.

After studying the true church established in the bible I'm starting to wonder the same thing about control of people and their money.

 

[amadeus]

I know some people like to pass judgments on others that confess to be sinners. This thread is not about that. And I often wonder why people fight the OSAS idea. I also don't believe in OSAS, but I believe in a version that allows for God to save people if he desires.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I also believe this...

I think no one, the devil or man, can snatch God's people out of his hand. But they can reject God by free choice. Let's pray for the sinners that they are given power to overcome sin as well. As God only promotes righteousness in his word.

And I believe this. The choice is always ours.

I'm reminded of the words of Jesus regarding people that would be jealous of God saving sinners:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Give God the glory!

 

[dev553344]

I also believe this...

And I believe this. The choice is always ours.

Give God the glory!

Thank you amadeus for that. I often wonder if I am alone in my doctrine ideas.

I'm also reminded of the following verse that encourages people, including sinners, to believe in Jesus the Christ. And I think it gives hope for the weak and sinners:

Matthew 21:31 ...“Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

 

[amadeus]

Everyone has a different salvation experience. The bible doesn't contain the experience of many. Such as the intensity of the Holy Spirit. In my case, God chose me, I didn't choose Him. I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and beyond description. God gave me spiritual gifts, again I didn't ask for, but I'm grateful my name is in His book of life. I trust and obey what my Savior says. I know I'm secure with eternal life because Jesus told me so.

All of us who have received the Holy Spirit are secure so long as we keep our eyes always on Him and walk always with Him. How much do we love Him? How much so we trust Him?

Ps 25:4	Show me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.
Ps 25:5	Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day

Are we waiting all the day long?
What a mighty God we serve!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why?

1. They think it is too easy
2. The think it allows people to sin all they want
3. They can not remove self from the equation (pride can not let go)
3. In the end, they just do not believe God.

I forgot one (although there are many)

OSAS is seen as calvinistic. And the hate again calvinism is so great that you will never believe anything they say

 

[Lambano]

After studying the true church established in the bible I'm starting to wonder the same thing about control of people and their money.

It's not just about money, though that's a part of it. It's about POWER.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Narrow thinking.

Doing what the Lords says one must do to be saved is... narrow thinking?

Did you tell the Lord He was a "narrow thinker"???

Romans 10:9,10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If you didn't read what I said

What matters is the the LORD says in His Word!

Anybody that has not done what Romans 10:9,10 says has not yet been born again.

Why argue against what God said?

You might want to go ahead and do that with the Lord to make sure you are actually born again!

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @dev553344

Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?​

From my perspective, when I was a young adolescent there were times I prayed to God just to not send me to hell. Terrified of my own wicked ways, the truth became evident when reading through the good news and coming across instances of where Jesus talks about how one is to abide in him, and if one makes the choice not to abide, they are cut off like a branch and tossed into a fire, which means they wither away from the faith because they are trusting more in themselves than they are of the one whom gives them the real strength to get by in this world which is relying on the Lord Yeshua, whom is the Messiah of Israel, and the King of kings, and Lord of lords, the Son of Man, and the Son of God.

There is also the Parable found in Matthew 13, about the wheat and the tares, and also the parable of sower, where many people fell away due to being persecuted, or they had not firm root so they withered away, some having the darkness, or evil come steal away what good they did have, and then there was some seed that fell on good soil, and it produced a lot of the fruit of righteousness which is from the Lord Yeshua, who is our righteousness, and wisdom from God to learn from and to grow in and mature as a spiritual child to a spiritually mature Christian deeply rooted in having faith and trusting ones own Father that is in heaven.

This why for me, the once saved always saved dilemma is something that I can only resolve in not holding to be true except in the exception of the elect which is an entire story on its own from Genesis to Revelation.

Great question and these are just some of my thoughts on that subject personally I do not believe it is true. You can stop having faith at any given time when you lose touch with God and not any longer having a steady relationship, and walk away from trusting God, and into trusting yourself, trusting in the world you live in rather than on God, or even putting idols before your ownself and that leads you down a road without hope, strength, rest, or anyone to truly call out too.