Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

[Big Boy Johnson]

Because the fallen human nature cannot humble itself enough to admit that they can "DO nothing,"
and believe That Christ Did It All On The Cross?

Does this mean Christians can live in sin and still go to Heaven?

Lots and lots of folks these days living in sin... and claiming they are Christians

 

[Lambano]

When they teach God preserves some people so they go to Heaven even if they turn away from the Lord and live in sin after the flesh... it's false doctrine and is in opposition to the Lord.

Nah, "they" just teach that if that happens, "those people" were never really saved to begin with. Which just changes the nature of the insecurity from "Can I lose my salvation?" to "Am I REALLY saved?" Which insecurity is more detrimental to trusting God?

I'm also astonished when I hear folks say they wouldn't live holy and righteous lives if they didn't have the threat of their Heavenly Father torturing them forever hanging over their heads. How does that inspire love and trust in God? But maybe they mean "those other guys" wouldn't live righteously without the threat of losing their salvation.

 

[St. SteVen]

But I'm not really a cynic. Honest, I'm not.

We should vote. - LOL

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It's not a threat... God's Word teaches that the unrighteous will burn in hell.

It's the reality taught in God's Word that hell was created for the devil and his demons... and since everything is created after it's own kind (see Gen 8:22, Gal 6:7,8), those that lives after the flesh (sin) get the devil's reward which is to be sent to hell.

Jesus taught a lot about hell and gives warnings about hell... and He knows what He's talking about!

 

[St. SteVen]

Sure I can... because God's Word teaches that we CAN actually lose our salvation!

Hard to imagine a more careless act. - LOL
Maybe it's with your car keys?

 

[St. SteVen]

The OSAS argument is beating a dead horse. Dead horses attract flies.

Oh, I see. Thanks. - LOL

Getting some of these fine folks to understand eternal security is like riding that dead horse. (flies and all)

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Getting some of these fine folks to understand eternal security is like riding that dead horse

That's what I'm trying to get across... OSAS is a dead doctrine!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you have decided to NOT follow the Lord's instructions concerning getting born again???

which one?

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What did I fail to do?

And why did Jesus say whoever was born again would never die. And live forever. Did Jesus lie?

They REPENTED and turned away from their sin... unlike your boy calvin who was happy to have people murdered and said he not only had no regrets but would gladly do it again.

lol. My boy Calvin?

Your are so deep in your unbelief you can not even hear what people believe. Calvin is not my boy. I reject Calvinism, as well as Arminianism as false gospel.

Your boy Johnny Calvin is in the fires of hell right now!


Actually go read ALL of what Jesus said about judging.... He ends that talk with commanding us to judge a righteous judgement.

The way to do that is to go by ALL of what God says... and this is why OSAS is false doctrine and exposing it as such is not "juvenile" at all. It's simply reading more than just a select few happy verses.

All you have exposed is yoru self righteousness, Inability to comprehend. And your demand you must save yourself.

This is why we should believe the whole counsel of God on this subject and not just a few select happy verses.

If you do not believe john 3.. You will nt believe anything

 

[St. SteVen]

That's what I'm trying to get across... OSAS is a dead doctrine!

On the contrary, my good fellow.
Why are you so dogmatic about it?
There are two sides to this issue. Both sides have a biblical basis.

Why are your Bible verses better than everyone else's?
Who wins when we play Bible versus Bible?

Do you have the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NIV
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit,
guaranteeing what is to come.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Does this mean Christians can live in sin and still go to Heaven?

Lots and lots of folks these days living in sin... and claiming they are Christians

A child of God can not live in sin (1 john)

but anyone who commits 1 sin is unworthy. So do not puff yourself up thinking you are more worthy

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's what I'm trying to get across... OSAS is a dead doctrine!

No

Eternal life is a living doctine.

NOSAS is a dead doctrine.

 

[atpollard]

Did Jesus lie when He told the Holy Ghost to tell the Apostle Paul... to write this???

No, the Holy Spirit does not lie.

Galatians 6:7-8

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

I like complete paragraphs for context:

The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches [him.] Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. Let's not become discouraged in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not become weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let's do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. - Galatians 6:6-10 [NASB]​

I agree with Paul. Both the wheat and the tares will yield “fruit” appropriate to their nature and reveal their inner core and ultimate destiny. Sheep are not goats, wheat are not tares, “children of God” are not ”of the world”.

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

I have no idea what you are talking about. As a Particular Baptist, I believe the many promises of the Holy Spirit recorded on Scripture that those whom the Father has chosen, the “whosoever believes” given to the Son, will be preserved by God and raised on the Last Day. I find that many “haters” of OSAS have bizarre definitions of what God’s promises entail and like to advance “What If” strawmen that no one I know advocates as proof that the Judaisers were right and men must perform WORKS OF THE LAW to earn their ongoing salvation.

That is why I prefer to define my “Preservation of the Saints” (OSAS) using scripture. Like this:

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for [His] good pleasure. - Philippians 2:12-13 [NASB]​

• I believe the Holy Spirit when Paul writes that God is at work in us to DESIRE and to WORK for His good pleasure … so we will!

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons [and daughters] through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, regarding [His] plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:3-14 [NASB]​

• I believe Paul when he writes that God chose us and God has a plan for us and the Holy Spirit in us SEALS us for redemption as God’s possession.

That says that it is NOT our strength and power and will that sustains us, but HIS promise and plan and will that sustains our salvation until the end.

Soli Deo Gloria! (All Glory to God Alone)​

 

[Wrangler]

And I often wonder why people fight the OSAS idea. I also don't believe in OSAS

Odd question. I'm pro gun and I often wonder why people fight gun control ...

To answer your question; it has to do with many things Christ said that go against it. Furthermore, the verses used in support of OSAS are missing the mark as they deal with how God will never abandon or forsake a believer.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Wait...
"Actually... God chose everyone!" is very NOT Calvinist/predestned.
God saving everyone is universalist, not Calvinist. In Calvinism, only SOME are saved. (the Elect)


There it is. SOME. (not all)

I disagree.

Color changes and bolding are mine for emphasis.

Calvin: Predestination

Calvin on predestination: To his glory, God determined before all creation those who would obtain eternal life, and those who would receive eternal death.

www.theologian-theology.com

Calvin said

John Calvin on Predestination​

Calvin on Predestination​

John Calvin’s doctrine of predestination has often been rejected as unjust. In this series of two articles I will explain why, according to John Calvin, this charge is misplaced. In this article, I will summarize Calvin’s doctrine of predestination. My discussion of Calvin’s view will draw on excerpts from Book III, chapters 21-23, of his Institutes of the Christian Religion (1559) in Hans J. Hillerbrand’s collection The Protestant Reformation (ordinary page references are to this work), and sections 3.24.4 and 3.24.5 of Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion translated by Henry Beveridge (decimal references are to this work, pictured to the right).

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).

Calvin described the basis of predestination in several ways. In general he affirmed that there is no basis for election outside of God. Referring to Eph. 1.9, Calvin noted that God purposed election “in Himself,” basing his decree of predestination on “nothing outside Himself (192).” Calvin attributed the salvation of the elect to God’s free decision to favor them (188). He variously described this as God’s “mere generosity (180, 187),” his “freely given mercy (189, 195, 211),” and the “good pleasure of His will (191; cf. Eph. 1.5).” Moreover, Calvin based the damnation of the reprobate solely in God’s decision (189, 200).

Since God’s reasons for predestination are wholly internal to his being (190), they are opaque to humanity. Ultimately, then, the basis of God’s predestination is mysterious and “utterly incomprehensible” to people (209). This mystery points to one of God’s purposes in predestination, to inspire wonder and reverence in believers (181). The things hidden in God are not to be understood by people, but rather revered in their “wonderful depth (179).” Indeed, for John Calvin the overarching purpose of predestination is for God to be glorified, both in the praise of the elect for his grace (192), and in the terrible yet glorious judgment of the reprobate (199).

Despite the mysterious basis of predestination, it is possible for the elect to be certain of their status as children of God (187). The first and seemingly most important indicator of election is what Calvin referred to as “the calling of God (3.24.4, 189).” His use of this term seems to refer to a subjective inward certainty that God has chosen a person for salvation. Elsewhere, Calvin suggested that having “knowledge of [God’s] name” and reflecting the process of sanctification are both indicators of election (189). Moreover, Calvin claimed that “communion with Christ” is sufficient proof of election (3.24.5): since we are elected in Jesus Christ (Eph. 1.4), we cannot seek the certainty of election “apart from the Son (3.24.5).” Calvin also seemed to obscurely suggest that the daily blessings received from the hand of God might rightly be perceived as an indication of election, “that secret adoption (3.24.4).” Together, these signs—the foremost being “the calling of God,”—yield certainty of salvation and tranquil peace with God (3.24.4).

John Calvin also defined his doctrine of predestination in opposition to differing views held by his contemporaries. First, Calvin took up the view that God predestines people according to his foreknowledge of their works. While Calvin affirmed the foreknowledge of God (184), he denied that God “adopts as sons those whom He foreknows will not be unworthy of His grace,” and damns those he knows will be inclined to “evil intention and ungodliness (190).” From Ephesians 1.4 he argued that one purpose of God’s election was to make his children holy. Since holiness is to be produced by election, it made no sense to Calvin to assert the reverse (191-2). Moreover, the whole point of teaching that election took place before creation (Eph. 1.4) is to demonstrate that election had nothing to do with meritorious works (191). Indeed, for Calvin another important purpose of predestination was to communicate that salvation is not based on individual merit but solely on God’s grace (191).

Second, Calvin took up the view that God elects some but condemns none (200). Calvin saw this view as “highly absurd” since it seemed to imply that the salvation received by the elect could also be attained by the non-elect as a result of “chance” or “their own effort (200).” Rejecting this inconsistent implication, Calvin asserted that the reprobate are those God intentionally neglects to choose (200). From Rom. 9.14ff, Calvin argued that the hardening of non-elect hearts is as much attributable to God as is mercy.

Moreover, he noted that Paul did not shy away from this dreadful conclusion, but rather questioned the right of the clay to protest the Potter’s work (Rom. 9.20), and linked condemnation of the reprobate to God’s glory (Rom. 9.22-23). For John Calvin, election could not but stand “over against reprobation (200).”

Clearly God chose all ~ perhaps by pinpointing the elect he would draw, but if it was by ignoring the rest ... that is a choice God Himself made, and only him

 

[St. SteVen]

That says that it is NOT our strength and power and will that sustains us, but HIS promise and plan and will that sustains our salvation until the end.

That's solid gold right there. Thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

Clearly God chose all ~ perhaps by pinpointing the elect he would draw, but if it was by ignoring the rest ... that is a choice God Himself made, and only him

You lost me.
Are you saying that is, or isn't, Calvinism?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Wait...
"Actually... God chose everyone!" is very NOT Calvinist/predestned.
God saving everyone is universalist, not Calvinist. In Calvinism, only SOME are saved. (the Elect)

There it is. SOME. (not all)

I disagree.

LOL
How can you disagree? I quoted you.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

But if you reject eternal security, what are you left with?

Wait and see?
A life of fear, knowing you could lose your salvation at any moment?
Or the fear that you were never saved in the first place?
Or that you would arrive in judgement thinking you had done everything right
only to be rejected on a technicality? Or that late in life you may lose
your mental faculties and disqualify yourself?
Madness.

Do you have the Holy Spirit?
(his seal of ownership... as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come)

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NIV
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit,
guaranteeing what is to come.

If I have rejected eternal salvation, I have proven myself unworthy of the Grace of My Creator. He is not obliged to force my squarehead into round heaven. Some other worthier soul will sing Glory to God

More like prepare and marvel. Prepare and practice what might delight my God and marvel at the fingerprints he left behind in our universe and how truly I am unworthy of his Grace.

Salvation is by Grace Alone. There is nothing I can do on my part to compell the Creator. My faith compells me to love My God as my one true love. Can you fear one's true love and create a lasting relationship? God reaches over to pat my head and I instinctively cringe. I'll tell you that it would be a sign of pending friction.

That is very hypothetical, but if you have a relationship with God that was true at one time why would he forsake me for a temporary defect I essentially had no control? In either case, why should I burden my God with my madness. Why should I burden my family? As you know I am an annihilationist so whatever comes comes. My God will more be Glorified with me or without me. That is the concern.

Holy Spirit Deposit?
My God had me at hello. .
But seriously consider these verses
Joel 2:28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Matthew 24:50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. 51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Holy Spirit makes one wanting more, Not make one feel entitled of God. OSAS is license to rest on ones delusion forever and ever, so to speak.

 

[friend of]

The main reason I think people reject OSAS is because they see it as giving a license to sin, full vent

 

[bro.tan]

I know some people like to pass judgments on others that confess to be sinners. This thread is not about that. And I often wonder why people fight the OSAS idea. I also don't believe in OSAS, but I believe in a version that allows for God to save people if he desires.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I think no one, the devil or man, can snatch God's people out of his hand. But they can reject God by free choice. Let's pray for the sinners that they are given power to overcome sin as well. As God only promotes righteousness in his word.

I'm reminded of the words of Jesus regarding people that would be jealous of God saving sinners:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I just want to add your point what Ezekiel say in 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Salvation is in everyone hands if they choose to turn to the Lord and follow Commandments, Statues and Judgements. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).