Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

[St. SteVen]

Debp said:
I think if a person leaves their Christian faith, that they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit.

AMEN!!!!

Wait...
Doesn't that support eternal in-security?

How can we say with any certainty that those who "left the faith" (whatever that means)
were NEVER "really" born again? (whatever that means) ???

 

[Ritajanice]

Debp said:
I think if a person leaves their Christian faith, that they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit.

Wait...
Doesn't that support eternal in-security?

How can we say with any certainty that those who "left the faith" (whatever that means)
were NEVER "really" born again? (whatever that means) ???

I’m agreeing with @Debp ..and know through the Spirit, exactly what she means and is saying..as she’s saying it in Spirit and truth..,,imo/ belief.

You can’t leave being Born Again...that’s what I took faith to mean..

God can NEVER leave his Born Again child...as his word confirms...to his children’s “ Heart “..

She’s saying a Born Again ..a True Born Again can never leave their faith....how can they if they have been birthed in the Spirit?

Received the seed of God’s Living word into their Heart?

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:23.....................?

If God has testified this to your heart...it can NEVER be erased..

 

[St. SteVen]

I’m agreeing with @Debp ..and know through the Spirit, exactly what she means and is saying..as she’s saying it in Spirit and truth..,,imo/ belief.

You can’t leave being Born Again...that’s what I took faith to mean..

God can NEVER leave his Born Again child...as his word confirms...to his children’s “ Heart “..

She’s saying a Born Again ..a True Born Again can never leave their faith....how can they if they have been birthed in the Spirit?

Received the seed of God’s Living word into their Heart?

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:23.....................?

If God has testified this to your heart...it can NEVER be erased..

I agree. But let's look at the exact quote I was responding to.

I think if a person leaves their Christian faith, that they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit.

My question is about what we mean when we say "leaves their Christian faith".
And the second part of the quote says, "they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit."
Which raises another question. What does REALLY born again mean?

Can we identify a person that has left the church as being NEVER "really" born again by the Holy Spirit?
The evidence being that they left the church. (the faith)

The scripture being referred to reads, "They went out from us... their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

Sorry to split hairs on this, but this position looks like a slice of Swiss cheese to me. - LOL

People accuse me of having left the faith because I support UR.
But I certainly know that I am born again. (converted)
And I couldn't undo this, even if I tossed my Bible in the trash and stopped going to church.
But what would Christians say about me? "He left the faith. He never was one of us." Gee thanks! - LOL

 

[Debp]

I’m agreeing with @Debp ..and know through the Spirit, exactly what she means and is saying..as she’s saying it in Spirit and truth..,,imo/ belief.

You can’t leave being Born Again...that’s what I took faith to mean..

God can NEVER leave his Born Again child...as his word confirms...to his children’s “ Heart “..

She’s saying a Born Again ..a True Born Again can never leave their faith....how can they if they have been birthed in the Spirit?

Received the seed of God’s Living word into their Heart?

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:23.....................?

If God has testified this to your heart...it can NEVER be erased..

Thanks @Ritajanice . You stated it perfectly as to what I was saying. No need for me to add more.

 

[dev553344]

I think it's important to make a distinction in righteous judgment as established by God

I think if a person leaves their Christian faith, that they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit.

Paul the apostle actually talks about people having tasted of the heavenly gifts and turning away. Hebrews 6:4-6

 

[Wrangler]

I think if a person leaves their Christian faith, that they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit.

Ever heard of the fallacy of Ex post facto?

 

[St. SteVen]

I think it's important to make a distinction in righteous judgment as established by God

Paul the apostle actually talks about people having tasted of the heavenly gifts and turning away. Hebrews 6:4-6

Worth discussing.
Scripture in question pasted below.
So, does this mean that the Good Shepherd will NOT leave the ninety-nine to go after the one who wandered away?
I hope not. But look what this says. "It is impossible for those... who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."
These two scriptures are in conflict. For those who claim this cannot be, which one will you delete?

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance.
To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again
and subjecting him to public disgrace.

--- COMPARE ---

Matthew 18:12-14 NIV
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away,
will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?
13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.
14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

 

[Ritajanice]

My question is about what we mean when we say "leaves their Christian faith".
And the second part of the quote says, "they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit."
Which raises another question. What does REALLY born again mean?

It means we have been birthed in the Spirit....that is/ was my experience..God isn’t a book, he’s a Living spirit...much more to it than that...

The Lord told Nicodemus unequivocally, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6)

His Living Spirit Birthed my spirit into His...he testified with my spirit that I am his child/ Born Again....in other words as he was indwelling me, he spoke to my spirit and testified the words I just said above.

It’s a Living spiritual birth, it’s not something you read with your head...it’s something that is understood in our hearts..

That is my own personal opinion and testimony of what it means to be Born Again.

I can’t speak for others, they may believe differently.

God’s word always say it much better than me...as we see here.

◄ Romans 8:16 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. New Living Translation For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children. English Standard Version The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am a married bachelor and a little pregnant.
Because I love you, you can't leave me. (because I gonna use magic handcuffs or I gonna make you love me)

Why would you want to leave your spouse?
1. He has failed you
2. He is not trustworthy
3. He continually shows he untrustworthy he is
4. You did not really love him to begin with. You thought it was the right thing to get married. but you quickly realise you made a mistake?

I am sure there are more reasons..

which one of these has God done in order cause someone to want to leave?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly! This is how false doctrine gets started.

true

which is why you must make the word agree.

It can;t say one thing in one place. then contradict itself in another place.

if your reading the word and see this,, You must find out which one you are misinterpreting

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That saw cuts both ways.
Isn't that exactly what you are doing?
Why would you criticize others?

because thats why they do. The accuse others of doing what they do.. yet deny they even do it..

its part of their blindness

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think if a person leaves their Christian faith, that they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit.

The apostle John would agree with you

"they were never of us, if they were of us, they never would have left. but they left to expose the truth, they were never of us

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's well-worth discussing.
What does it mean to leave the Christian faith?
Some leave Christianity, or the church, but not God.
Is that what we mean when we say "leave the Christian faith?"
Does the Good Shepherd not leave the ninety-nine to go after the one?

Your post infers the statement in 1 John 2:19 which is the common response of the church. (quoted below)
The church is like a hospital that sends its wounded to the morgue. As if the ER is run by a Coroner.
When questioned about why they are embalming the living, they reply,
"By coming to the ER they proved that they were never alive."

Look at verse 18. This is reference to specific individuals at that time. "... even now many antichrists have come..."
These are the "they" in verse 19. IMHO --- The antichrists referenced here came out of their church.

1 John 2:18-19 NIV
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming,
even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Prodigal children..

they leave the church,, I did this for 5 years. But never rejected my savior or God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Debp said:
I think if a person leaves their Christian faith, that they were never really born again by the Holy Spirit.

Wait...
Doesn't that support eternal in-security?

How can we say with any certainty that those who "left the faith" (whatever that means)
were NEVER "really" born again? (whatever that means) ???

because they reject Christ.

These are not people that just left the church

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Not one iota of that last analogy relates to this topic.

Eternal Security is scripture. Or, Jesus was a liar, as is God, and Jesus died a failure.

At this stage that is precisely what unbelievers are putting forth. They are unbelievers in the Gospel that teaches God's grace gave us irrevocable eternal salvation by God's choice, not our labors to earn it.

This fact is all through Jesus ministry. It is not diminished by unbelievers in it. It does not become less because unbelievers do not see it.

In fact, unbelievers are a blessing in that their fixation with denying sinners are washed clean forever and are grace filled and irrevocably saved so not to perish as a dead in sin sinner, prove other parts of the true words of Christ.

The natural (sinner) mind cannot understand the things of God. Because they are spiritually discerned.

Those who have the Holy Spirit and are forever saved from perishing under sins, do understand the things of God. Like eternal irrevocable salvation by grace of our Father.

We won't reach those natural minded folk. And they shall never, no matter how many threads they start, shall speak over God's truth of eternal irrevocable salvation.

It is a shame they try. However, it is also a condition afforded sin nature, natural, worldly, minds that think God needs their help and consent to keep his word. That they believe they can overcome by choice and deed at any time. Making human behavior able to overcome divine covenant.

That's sad. And shall always be error.
"OSAS" Isn't heresy. It is divine favor. Unbelievers will never see that. Unless the Holy Spirit changes their mind. Him! Not us.

And that's it.

Here is a verse about Judas Iscariot. Absolute contravention of OSAS when plainly read. Wriggle this so I who is devoid of the Holy Spirit may recognize as a logical premise or a possible nuance of OSAS. Conform it or just ignore it?

John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here is a verse about Judas Iscariot. Absolute contravention of OSAS when plainly read. Wriggle this so I who is devoid of the Holy Spirit may recognize as a logical premise or a possible nuance of OSAS. Conform it or just ignore it?

John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

so show us one passage where it says Judas was born again?

 

[Ritajanice]

Prodigal children..

they leave the church,, I did this for 5 years. But never rejected my savior or God

Amen!!!..

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

St. SteVen said:

I disagree.

LOL
How can you disagree? I quoted you.

No.... you misunderstand....

Lets try and follow along.... I'll help

What you said is in blue.....

REPLY #27

I take it you are not a Calvinist, or predestined person.. though your statement of "Actually... God chose everyone!" is very Calvinist/predestned in idea. ( Neither am I BTW ...but it would be as much of a comfort as the OSAS belief.)

Wait...
"Actually... God chose everyone!" is very NOT Calvinist/predestned.
God saving everyone is universalist, not Calvinist. In Calvinism, only SOME are saved. (the Elect)

According to Calvin... God predetermines to save some people and the others will be sent to eternal death (some say damned)

There it is. SOME. (not all)


THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO MY POST #24

"Actually... God chose everyone!

But, only few answer His call to get born again, turn away from their sin to come abide in Him."


I take it you are not a Calvinist, or predestined person.. though your statement of "Actually... God chose everyone!" is very Calvinist/predestned in idea. ( Neither am I BTW ...but it would be as much of a comfort as the OSAS belief.)

Calvin said

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).

According to Calvin... God predetermines to save some people and the others will be sent to eternal death (some say damned)

Here God assigns one or the other to everyone... just like your "Actually... God chose everyone!"

But he determines and free will is out the window.

Post #74

Wait...
"Actually... God chose everyone!" is very NOT Calvinist/predestned.
God saving everyone is universalist, not Calvinist. In Calvinism, only SOME are saved. (the Elect)


There it is. SOME. (not all)

I disagree.

(I then posted a long explanation on Calvins beliefs..... cut for size at this point)

Calvin: Predestination​

Calvin on predestination: To his glory, God determined before all creation those who would obtain eternal life, and those who would receive eternal death.
www.theologian-theology.com

(I then went on to say)
Clearly God chose all ~ perhaps by pinpointing the elect he would draw, but if it was by ignoring the rest ... that is a choice God Himself made, and only him

(And repeating part of this from within this link....

Calvin: Predestination​

Calvin on predestination: To his glory, God determined before all creation those who would obtain eternal life, and those who would receive eternal death.
www.theologian-theology.com)

Then in reply #76 you came back with

Clearly God chose all ~ perhaps by pinpointing the elect he would draw, but if it was by ignoring the rest ... that is a choice God Himself made, and only him

You lost me.
Are you saying that is, or isn't, Calvinism?

Followed by reply #77

St. SteVen said:
Wait...
"Actually... God chose everyone!" is very NOT Calvinist/predestned.
God saving everyone is universalist, not Calvinist. In Calvinism, only SOME are saved. (the Elect)

There it is. SOME. (not all)

I disagree.

LOL
How can you disagree? I quoted you.

Now... I so want to say "FREE WILL" but am restraining myself.

What you said in Reply #27
"Actually... God chose everyone!" is very NOT Calvinist/predestned.
God saving everyone is universalist, not Calvinist. In Calvinism, only SOME are saved. (the Elect)

IS NOT ACCURATE.

The way theologian-theology phrased it is better than I ever could.

Calvin on predestination: To his glory, God determined before all creation those who would obtain eternal life, and those who would receive eternal death.
www.theologian-theology.com)

We know... according to predestination... at least Calvin style that God made, before the foundations of creation his selection of picking certain people for salvation.

I will extend that to God preselecting people to be the ones who will respond one way or the other when he draws them.... because if they were predestined to salvation there would be no need for the 4 corners of the bible to say "He draws". But that is another subject for another day.

You say when I alluded to Calvin saying God chose all... (I never said God chose all to salvation or all for the potential of salvation)...... that "Actually... God chose everyone!" is very NOT Calvinist/predestned.
God saving everyone is universalist, not Calvinist. In Calvinism, only SOME are saved. (the Elect)

Yes it is.

Allow me to explain what I mean by a parable of mine....

Predestination is like:

God the father walking into the Minnesota Vikings Stadium and to the 50 yard line.
Looking over the crowd, He starts to point to people, one at a time, and tells them to stand.

People lose count as He goes along and it takes a very long time.... and when He is done he tells those who are standing to enter inside and wait. They are free to use the restrooms, or get food at a concessions stand, or just wait. Eventually at some point He will once again start to draw certain ones for his purposes and for their salvations or potential salvations.

The rest He tells they can go home.

Now you are of the opinion He only called some. Not all.

I say you are wrong because the rest were chosen to not be with the others, and a conscious effort to name them one by one would not be needed.....

IOW... by not being chosen they have been chosen to not be chosen. And those that were chosen were chosen because God the Father chose them to be among the chosen for an eternity with Him. (My latest audition to be Kamala's speech writer...not)

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Why would you want to leave your spouse?
1. He has failed you
2. He is not trustworthy
3. He continually shows he untrustworthy he is
4. You did not really love him to begin with. You thought it was the right thing to get married. but you quickly realise you made a mistake?

I am sure there are more reasons..

which one of these has God done in order cause someone to want to leave?

This is a lawyer question isn't it? When did I stop beating my wife?

The answer is God cannot have done anything of the sort.
God is not a man who can lie. God does not tempt.
One leaves because he or she dreams too vividly and decides to realize it and leaves to do so. OSAS says I don't need to return to the father and remain wild and free and still receive his estate. After all I was his beautiful child once and the father should recognise me as such despite my drug addicted face full of festering STD poxes. Or something like that.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is a lawyer question isn't it? When did I stop beating my wife?

The answer is God cannot have done anything of the sort.
God is not a man who can lie. God does not tempt.
One leaves because he or she dreams too vividly and decides to realize it and leaves to do so. OSAS says I don't need to return to the father and remain wild and free and still receive his estate. After all I was his beautiful child once and the father should recognise me as such despite my drug addicted face full of festering STD poxes. Or something like that.

ok

did they leave the body

or did they walk away and now reject Christ?