Why do you reject authority?

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Mosheli

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Mathias was a successor to the Apostles. So were the bishops and elders. Letters to Timothy from Paul were pastoral instructions to Timothy. Do you not believe Timothy was a successor of Paul?

No one is denying that there have been successors (though not in the apostolic succession sense) and that true christian church(es) apostles/bishops/elders/pastors have authority of sorts. The issue is rather who is true christian & true church & true apostle/bishop/elder/pastor/successor.
 

BreadOfLife

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Heck no! I can’t stomach all the right fighting.
Then you're violating Scripture.

Heb. 10:24-25
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: NOT FORSAKING THE ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Congratulations . . .
 

Waiting on him

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Then you're violating Scripture.

Heb. 10:24-25
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: NOT FORSAKING THE ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Congratulations . . .
So, you a good little Hebrew?
 

BreadOfLife

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And the manner in which you share your love to those here who disagree with your theology is a credit to your organisation I'm sure.

But all that isn't what the discussion is all about is it. It's about the Catholic Church understanding and practise of religious liberty. Your asinine remark that Puis IX was speaking only in context to Catholics was, well, asinine. Let me quote him again...
The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error...a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.
So, which Catholic state has these absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings? I know of only one Catholic state. And Pius was it's head of state. Was he referring to his own dogmas by any chance?
Nonsense.

I've had GREAT dialogs with charitable Protestants here such as @amadeus and @Helen. We can disagree because they don't resort to LYING and spewing venom like YOU and others. Simply "disagreeing" is ONE thing - vomiting out LIES and perpetuating falsehoods is quite another.

YOU should learn the difference . . .

As to Pius XI's encyclicals - or the encyclical of ANY Pope - they are not binding on ANYBODY outside of the Catholic Church.
As a matter of fact - MUCH of what is in MOST encyclicals isn't binding at ALL.
 

Paul Christensen

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No one is denying that there have been successors (though not in the apostolic succession sense) and that true christian church(es) apostles/bishops/elders/pastors have authority of sorts. The issue is rather who is true christian & true church & true apostle/bishop/elder/pastor/successor.
In most traditional churches where there is a solid structure with well-defined roles, authority is rather a non-issue. The leadership is usually appointed through a defined process and ratified by the congregation. In the case of Anglican churches, the bishop is recognised as having oversight, and ministers are trained and licensed by the church and so members don't have a problem with the pastoral guidance their vicar performs. Other churches have their own systems of appointing elders and deacons, and training ministers. It is very rare to have bullying, dominating ministers in those churches, and, in the case of the Presbyterian church, it is run by ruling elders, making it very difficult for a minister to dominate, seeing that he or she has just one vote toward any decision that is made in an elders' meeting.

The problem with domination comes with autonomous churches where the church pastor is at the top of the hierarchy pyramid. In those churches the elders are not really ruling elders, although they may have an advisory function; but they are at a lower level than the "senior" pastor, whose decision is final when it comes to deciding church policy. But such a pastor needs to be a strong dominating person because in many of these churches, the pastor's tenure can be quite shaky, because there are those who aspire to the pastor's role and if they can get enough supporters they can "roll" the pastor. Usually that causes a division in the church, and either the aspiring "pastor" leaves with his supporters and starts his own church, or the incumbent has to leave with enough of his supporters to plant a new church somewhere. In these churches, the pastor makes the rules and often promotes the church as at the cutting edge of what God is doing, and anyone who disagrees with the pastor is rebelling against God, and if the members leave the church, the threat is that they are quitting the body of Christ and they will never be able to remain in the perfect will of God. Of course, this is rubbish and amounts to spiritual bullying and abuse. There is always a problem when a church pastor is the sole authority at the top of a hierarchy pyramid, having no one above him to provide oversight. This is how a good Christian church can end up being a cult.
 

Illuminator

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And the manner in which you share your love to those here who disagree with your theology is a credit to your organisation I'm sure.

But all that isn't what the discussion is all about is it. It's about the Catholic Church understanding and practise of religious liberty. Your asinine remark that Puis IX was speaking only in context to Catholics was, well, asinine. Let me quote him again...
The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error...a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.
So, which Catholic state has these absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings? I know of only one Catholic state. And Pius was it's head of state. Was he referring to his own dogmas by any chance?
Your quote can only be found on SDA sites. If you can't site an official Catholic source revealing full context, you should stop making things up.
 

mjrhealth

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That's good you cut back on it. The less coffee the better for some. I don't have much stress in life, or I would cut back too.
Going to shops, may actually have one today, usually do if its not busy.

But another point

Now we have made being social a crime, truly this earth has become the realm of satan, no kissing at NEE, oh satan satan what have we to do with thee.
 
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mjrhealth

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And the manner in which you share your love to those here who disagree with your theology is a credit to your organisation I'm sure.

But all that isn't what the discussion is all about is it. It's about the Catholic Church understanding and practise of religious liberty. Your asinine remark that Puis IX was speaking only in context to Catholics was, well, asinine. Let me quote him again...
The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error...a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.
So, which Catholic state has these absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings? I know of only one Catholic state. And Pius was it's head of state. Was he referring to his own dogmas by any chance?
I love how you trade one lie for another, their delusion for your own.

Truly the pot calling the kettle black,
 

quietthinker

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Then you're violating Scripture.

Heb. 10:24-25
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: NOT FORSAKING THE ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Congratulations . . .
You have no problems assembling with those you have little in common with on a regular basis? or do you 'visit' for the purpose of performing what you might consider 'religious obligations/duties' with this being the common activity?
 

BreadOfLife

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You have no problems assembling with those you have little in common with on a regular basis? or do you 'visit' for the purpose of performing what you might consider 'religious obligations/duties' with this being the common activity?
Neither.

I assemble with the Body of Christ because I am BOTH spiritually nourished with the Eucharist and the Word of God in the holy sacrifice of the mass - and I am commanded to do so by God (Luke 22:19–20; Matthew 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; 1 Corinthians 11:23–25, Heb. 10:24-25).

Why do you avoid the assembling of the Body?
 

Truther

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Neither.

I assemble with the Body of Christ because I am BOTH spiritually nourished with the Eucharist and the Word of God in the holy sacrifice of the mass - and I am commanded to do so by God (Luke 22:19–20; Matthew 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; 1 Corinthians 11:23–25, Heb. 10:24-25).

Why do you avoid the assembling of the Body?
That wafer spiritually nourishes you?

Try praying in tongues in your closet for about a half hour and you'll never go back to that chalky thingy again.
 

BreadOfLife

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That wafer spiritually nourishes you?
Try praying in tongues in your closet for about a half hour and you'll never go back to that chalky thingy again.
John 6:53-58
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

NOW - find me the verse that says I should lock myself in my closet and babble in tongues to prove my faith . . .
 
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Truther

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John 6:53-58
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

NOW - find me the verse that says I should lock myself in my closet and babble in tongues to prove my faith . . .
Okay....

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy. closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray. to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father. which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


And here is what praying in the spirit looks like...


15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Try that instead of the chalk wafer.

It feels waaaay better.
 

Brakelite

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Nonsense.

I've had GREAT dialogs with charitable Protestants here such as @amadeus and @Helen. We can disagree because they don't resort to LYING and spewing venom like YOU and others. Simply "disagreeing" is ONE thing - vomiting out LIES and perpetuating falsehoods is quite another.

YOU should learn the difference . . .

As to Pius XI's encyclicals - or the encyclical of ANY Pope - they are not binding on ANYBODY outside of the Catholic Church.
As a matter of fact - MUCH of what is in MOST encyclicals isn't binding at ALL.
Yet encyclicals, binding or not, are a reflection of Catholic opinion, particularly when it's repeated by Catholic media decades later. We are talking about general Catholic incompatibility with the spirit of the constitution. That is religious liberty. Religious liberty is not a Catholic principle, except for itself.
 

quietthinker

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Neither.

I assemble with the Body of Christ because I am BOTH spiritually nourished with the Eucharist and the Word of God in the holy sacrifice of the mass - and I am commanded to do so by God (Luke 22:19–20; Matthew 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; 1 Corinthians 11:23–25, Heb. 10:24-25).

Why do you avoid the assembling of the Body?
could you tell me where the body is?.....a live one ie.....not walking cadavers?
 

Brakelite

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Your quote can only be found on SDA sites. If you can't site an official Catholic source revealing full context, you should stop making things up.
Lol. As if you would seek to convince readers that SDA sites pull this stuff out of thin air. You know perfectly well that this wasn't invented by the SDA Church, and that it is a direct quote. I could pull the Quanta Qura encyclical from all over the place and it would say the same thing. As for context, I understand the context. Pius was repeating and agreeing with what Gregory wrote in another encyclical about 50 or so years previously. I also understand that within Catholicism there are conservative and liberal elements who have been debating these same ideas for ever, especially since Vatican 2. Some even arguing that Vatican 2 contradicts what Pius was saying in Quanta Qura. That debate continues today, 60 years later, even within Catholicism. . So it isn't just me. It certainly isn't just the SDA Church that has concerns for true religious freedom in a context of Catholic majority. These ideas I am talking about are not frivolous attacks or anti Catholic vitriol as you would all like to make out. There are genuine concerns for those liberties as set out in state sponsored constitutions that guarantee the rights of individuals to worship according to conscience. Yours and BoLs and Marymogs arguments and denials do absolutely nothing toward offering any reassurance. Catholic belligerence and accusing us of being liars etc when we bring these matters into the conversation is further evidence for our caution and suspicion.
Particularly so when a thread on a Protestant forum concerning church authority is started by a radical Catholic who pretends she is genuinely interested in an exchange of ideas.
 

Illuminator

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Lol. As if you would seek to convince readers that SDA sites pull this stuff out of thin air. You know perfectly well that this wasn't invented by the SDA Church, and that it is a direct quote. I could pull the Quanta Qura encyclical from all over the place and it would say the same thing. As for context, I understand the context. Pius was repeating and agreeing with what Gregory wrote in another encyclical about 50 or so years previously. I also understand that within Catholicism there are conservative and liberal elements who have been debating these same ideas for ever, especially since Vatican 2. Some even arguing that Vatican 2 contradicts what Pius was saying in Quanta Qura. That debate continues today, 60 years later, even within Catholicism. . So it isn't just me. It certainly isn't just the SDA Church that has concerns for true religious freedom in a context of Catholic majority. These ideas I am talking about are not frivolous attacks or anti Catholic vitriol as you would all like to make out. There are genuine concerns for those liberties as set out in state sponsored constitutions that guarantee the rights of individuals to worship according to conscience. Yours and BoLs and Marymogs arguments and denials do absolutely nothing toward offering any reassurance. Catholic belligerence and accusing us of being liars etc when we bring these matters into the conversation is further evidence for our caution and suspicion.
Particularly so when a thread on a Protestant forum concerning church authority is started by a radical Catholic who pretends she is genuinely interested in an exchange of ideas.
Here is the full context of Quanta Qura. Your suspicious quote is not found in it.
We are free to dissent, we are not free to rebel. Controversies have always been part of the development process. The Pope allows for controversies because it's part of growth, development and ever increasing clarity. Pius IX wrote to bishops concerning the errors of the times, not to anti-Catholics in 2020.
Pius XI issued numerous encyclicals, including Quadragesimo anno on the 40th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII's groundbreaking social encyclical Rerum novarum, highlighting the capitalistic greed of international finance, the dangers of socialism/communism, and social justice issues, and Quas primas, establishing the feast of Christ the King in response to anti-clericalism. (wiki)
 

Brakelite

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Here is the full context of Quanta Qura. Your suspicious quote is not found in it.
Correct. But it is found in the syllabus of errors written and prepared by the same author and annexed to the encyclical, thus giving it the same authority and reflecting the thoughts of the author.
We are free to dissent, we are not free to rebel.
Who's "we"?
 
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