Why I believe in the rapture.

[Curtis]

And I think that also depends on how you define it all.
Are you talking about National Israel? Or Jews who come to Christ? Because I think, without a doubt, that the NT tells us that anyone, Jew or Gentile, who comes to Christ…IS part of the Church.
But…I do believe that Paul still speaks of National Israel as apart from the Church…and…even apart from the unsaved Gentiles.
However…I’m not convinced that this body of Jews calls for the Church to be Raptured. I see no evidence of that. Only God’s faithfulness to save them. But that very promise is given by ‘grafting them’ back onto the same tree that Paul has been using to explain the elect….the church….the saved Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, rather than the Church being Raptured out, it seems Paul is telling us that as God redeems National Israel at the end, that “tree” will swell as the natural branches are grafted back on.

Yes indeed, the tree in Romans 11 is National Israel, we gentiles are the wild branches grafted onto the olive tree of Israel, and God is able to graft all Israel back onto their own tree, who are alive to see the deliverer, Jesus, come out of Zion (Jerusalem) and will believe He is the real Messiah, and be saved.

And of course salvation only came to us gentiles to make Israel jealous.

 

[Timtofly]

You’re correct in saying that Revelation 20 only mentions the dead. However, that is not the only place that mentions the resurrection of the dead, or the resurrection of people already dead with those who are still alive. Let’s look at the passages that do and see what we can deduce from them:

John 5:28-29
[28] Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice [29] and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Daniel 12:1-3
The Time of the End
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [3] And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

We can see that both these passages place the resurrection of both the just AND the unjust together.

Jesus also said the hour was already there.

Lazarus was the first one called out of the grave, permanently. Since it was only him, no lost souls came out in that same hour.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

And in these verses we see that the dead “in Christ” will be raised at the same time that the Rapture happens…at the resurrection.
Thus, when we look at passages like Matt 25, the Final Judgment, where Jesus judges the living, and Rev 20, The Great White Throne Judgment, where the dead are judged, we can extrapolate from the verses above that these are done together, as both living and dead, just and unjust, are done at the same time.

This is not my “assumption” of these verses, but simple deduction as I lay them out. Unless you believe they say something different? Does John and Daniel NOT say the just and unjust are raised at the same time? Do 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 tell us that the living and dead are NOT resurrected at the same time?

Living and dead is not the same as just and unjust.

Excuse me. You point a finger at me for “adding to scripture words and thoughts that are not there”, and it appears to me that is what you have done here. ‘The decision was made to remove their name’? Really? Where do you find that? Extrapolate that?
All the text tells us is that the ‘dead were raised’ and that they were judged based on whether or not their names where written in the Lambs book of life. The only bit of extra detail we are given is that those who are judged are done so ‘according to what they had done’.
As far as “if there is a resurrection at the GWT”…well, these people are being judged, yes? If they are not found in the Lambs book of Life they are thrown into the lake of fire? Well…if we look back up at John or Daniel, that speaks of the dead being raised, the “resurrection of judgment…everlasting contempt”….sounds sort of familiar, don’t you think?
The unjust dead must receive a resurrection as well….the bible certainly speaks of it, only in terms of punishment, anguish, torment.


I’m sorry, it seem to me that you’ve tied a very twisty sort of knot here that makes not much sense. And once more, the whole ‘name being there, name being taken away’ seems a lot like adding to scripture or reading into scripture…which you were waggling your finger at me over.

Are you also a calvanist claiming only the elect are written in the Lamb's book of life?

 

[Curtis]

Thanks for the heads up on where you land. I’ll try and keep it in mind!

Okay. Let’s try and noodle this through. In the OT accounts, Noah and Lot “knew”. Noah had enough ‘lead’ time to build an ark, so, sure. Lot…less time. He knew things were going poorly when he decided it might be better to offer his daughters to the mob rather than the ‘strangers’. It was only then he was told he must flee for his life. So…I would suggest he didn’t have a lot of time, he more or less had to flee with the clothes on his back.

However, when we get to the NT references, which is the point of this whole conversation, the two passages you referred me to, says nothing about these two men “being prepared”. Do they? In fact…apart from giving reference to the ‘Days of Noah’ and ‘Lot’, the only thing that seems to be mentioned, is how unprepared everyone was.
Now…it’s fine to suppose that the two men in question were prepared. That they were different. The problem for you is….they are not the POINT of the parables given. I extend the opportunity for you to show me differently. Show me how the parables given were meant to show how prepared those two men were, and how we should look at them and see a means of escape, just as they did.
It’s not there, is it?



Sir, I mean this with the utmost respect, as I have the whole conversation, but…the text says what it says. Anyone can claim the Spirit’s leading…and people frequently do. Sometimes people with the best intentions truly think they have the correct interpretation based upon what God has shown them. But as we look down through Church history we see some towering figures…both of intellect and spiritual maturity….who disagree with each other on certain issues. Sometimes important issues. That tells us that one simply cannot rely on “The Spirit will show me!”
No…we must rely on several things….the revelation of the Spirit, the careful study of his word, sitting under sound teaching of people you know to be wise and learned…and the humility to know you might be wrong and be willing to learn what God is teaching you.
And frankly….the text is not saying what you hope it is. At least, you have not given a convincing reason or argument to suggest it might be. And without that weighty evidence or reason, I cannot…must not…be swayed simply by the say-so of a man claiming wisdom of above, when I can read what is before me.
I trust you understand.

Jesus comes like a thief in the night. He even warned believers to always watch and expect His imminent return. In fact in His coming at the Matthew 25 wedding supper, half of those waiting to go inside to the wedding, were caught unready, and were locked out.

The whole point in Jesus warning about His return being as the days of Noah, is that His return will catch the world going about their daily lives, oblivious to what was going to come upon them, just as happened during the days of Noah.

Shalom r

 

[Keraz]

Yes indeed, the tree in Romans 11 is National Israel, we gentiles are the wild branches grafted onto the olive tree of Israel, and God is able to graft all Israel back onto their own tree, who are alive to see the deliverer, Jesus, come out of Zion (Jerusalem) and will believe He is the real Messiah, and be saved.

This statement is totally anomalous. It contradicts itself.
JESUS is the Tree of Life.
Ethnic Israel is also removed from that Tree because of their sins and rejection of Jesus. Paul makes that clear in Romans 11:20 They were lopped off for lack of faith....

The Jews can be grafted into that Tree, If they do not continue faithless......Romans 11:23
But we know from Romans 9:27, that only a remnant will do so. Isaiah 6:11-13

 

[Naomi25]

Not to mention that unlike what most people think, apocalypse does not mean cataclysmic disaster or war, it means a REVELATION, a revealing.

So in reality the movie Apocalypse Now really means Revelation Now.

Well, yes, that’s what the word, apokalupsis, means.
In terms of genre, I’d say it means something like this: “a genre of revelatory literature with a narrative framework, in which a revelation is mediated by an otherworldly being to a human recipient, disclosing a transcendent reality which is both temporal, insofar as it envisages eschatological salvation, and spatial insofar as it involves another supernatural world” (John Collins - Apocalypse, Prophecy and Pseudepigraphy)

 

[Naomi25]

I know what genre is. Your explanation turned it into a doctrine that one cannot take Revelation as literal. It is literal at times. If you claim that it cannot be, that is a doctrine of forced interpretation.

Wait. So…just because a book is written in a particular genre means it is then forbidden from using literary devices that belong elsewhere?
So…when reading historical books, we’re not allowed to take some of the language as poetic or figurative? Like…when God tells Abraham that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. It is…unlikely that that promise is literal, and more likely to be figurative. Statistically, when considering the numbers of heavenly bodies.

Besides, your objection falls flat, I’m afraid. Genre is not absolute, and you ought to know that very well. Let’s say that a person follows YOUR insistence that Revelation is read LITERALLY. Except….you are not saying that YOUR genre of literal-ness must be forced onto everything within the text…are you? Because if you are, then Jesus is both an actual slain lamb AND a lion at the same time. And the churches are actually lampstands, rather than churches.
You see how it goes.

No…apocalyptic genre allows for things to be read ‘literally’ if called for. In point of fact, I would say that reading Revelation ‘literally’ is reading is as apocalyptic. The genre itself tells us when to interpret a symbol as a symbol, and when to take something as factual. And as there is no image within Revelation that does not appear somewhere else in scripture, I feel comfortable in letting God interpret his own words.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes indeed, the tree in Romans 11 is National Israel, we gentiles are the wild branches grafted onto the olive tree of Israel, and God is able to graft all Israel back onto their own tree, who are alive to see the deliverer, Jesus, come out of Zion (Jerusalem) and will believe He is the real Messiah, and be saved.

And of course salvation only came to us gentiles to make Israel jealous.

Well…I think we need to be a little careful how we term everything, just because how confusing it gets. I think National Israel is currently in unbelief. I think the tree is believing Israel…those elect…people like Paul, like the disciples. Those Jews who believed in Christ…they already WERE Israel…the natural tree…and did not need to be pruned in unbelief. The Gentiles who came to Christ were grafted onto that tree. And, as National Israel comes to Christ, they too will be grafted back onto the tree.
I do wonder if, towards the end, if they’ll come in slowly, or if they’ll come in in a massive rush. It’ll be something to see, won’t it!?

 

[Naomi25]

Jesus also said the hour was already there.

Lazarus was the first one called out of the grave, permanently. Since it was only him, no lost souls came out in that same hour.

Context, if you please! Did Jesus say ‘the hour is now here’ when talking about the resurrection? What IS he talking of?

John 5:24-25
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

There are two ways we know this is NOT speaking about the resurrection. One….he doesn’t mention resurrection or graves.
The other is the context he gives us the verse before. He is talking about salvation, not resurrection. He is talking eternal life, not new bodies.
So when he says “the dead will hear the voice”, we know from the verse IMMEDIATELY prior that when he says those “who hear my voice” will have “eternal life” and have “passed from death to life”.
The two verses go hand in hand and you may not separate them.

Living and dead is not the same as just and unjust.

No, and I didn’t claim it was. But, within the two categories of living and dead, we have both those people groups: the just and the unjust. Right?

So, we have the Just who are living, and the Just who are dead. We also have the unjust who are living and the unjust who are dead. You follow?

If the bible puts the resurrection of both just and unjust DEAD together. And then also puts together the resurrection of the just living and dead….do we not have an ipso facto sort of conclusion? Where do you pry any of them apart, biblically? After it has just put them together?

. Are you also a calvanist claiming only the elect are written in the Lamb's book of life?

Ephesians 1:3-14
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, [4] even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [5] he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. [7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, [8] which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight [9] making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ [10] as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. [11] In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, [12] so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. [13] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Please….explain to me how my salvation and election is NOT part of God’s unique plan of predestination….a plan that is ultimately for HIS glory and praise.

 

[Naomi25]

Jesus comes like a thief in the night. He even warned believers to always watch and expect His imminent return. In fact in His coming at the Matthew 25 wedding supper, half of those waiting to go inside to the wedding, were caught unready, and were locked out.

The whole point in Jesus warning about His return being as the days of Noah, is that His return will catch the world going about their daily lives, oblivious to what was going to come upon them, just as happened during the days of Noah.

Shalom r

Hi Curtis, yes, I’m aware of the parables. My conversation with David was somewhat convoluted. He argued that Noah and Lot were prepared for the disasters that came upon them. My argument was that even if they were in the OT accounts, that’s not what the NT parables were about. The NT parables are, as you point out, telling us that no one can know and we need to remain ready and watchful.

 

[Curtis]

Well…I think we need to be a little careful how we term everything, just because how confusing it gets. I think National Israel is currently in unbelief. I think the tree is believing Israel…those elect…people like Paul, like the disciples. Those Jews who believed in Christ…they already WERE Israel…the natural tree…and did not need to be pruned in unbelief. The Gentiles who came to Christ were grafted onto that tree. And, as National Israel comes to Christ, they too will be grafted back onto the tree.
I do wonder if, towards the end, if they’ll come in slowly, or if they’ll come in in a massive rush. It’ll be something to see, won’t it!?

I agree with that.

 

[Curtis]

Lazarus was the first one called out of the grave, permanently. Since it was only him, no lost souls came out in that same hour.

I see nothing in that account of Lazarus that says he was raised in an immortalized body.

There are still people raised from the dead today by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead who indwells believers (HS), and they aren’t immortals now, either.

 

[Curtis]

One day when they stop chasing one another’s tails Gods gonna open their eyes.

Talk is cheap. Do some backing up of talk with scriptures, please.

Shalom

 

[Curtis]

Although i really wish they were correct and Jesus was returning to take them somewhere far away, where I could no longer listen to their error, it’s only wishful thinking.

I do believe this scripture had you in mind:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them IN THE CLOUDS , to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Verse 18, there’s your so-called wishful thinking.

 

[Curtis]

This statement is totally anomalous. It contradicts itself.
JESUS is the Tree of Life.
Ethnic Israel is also removed from that Tree because of their sins and rejection of Jesus. Paul makes that clear in Romans 11:20 They were lopped off for lack of faith....

The Jews can be grafted into that Tree, If they do not continue faithless......Romans 11:23
But we know from Romans 9:27, that only a remnant will do so. Isaiah 6:11-13

Most of Israel is in disbelief and blinded in part, and most of them are cut off from the olive tree, except for a remnant, UNTIL the times of the gentiles is fulfilled, then all of ungodly Israel shall be saved, when they see JESUS the deliverer coming out of ZION, Jerusalem.

They will see Jesus coming out of Jerusalem after He saves it from destruction by the hordes of attacking Muslim armies, realize He is their real Messiah, then bwelieve, and thus be saved by faith. Zechariah 14

Meanwhile gentiles are the wild branches that must get grafted onto the tree, because the new covenant that took effect at Jesus’ death, is still with the houses of Israel and Judah.

The root of the tree is God, we gentiles are the wild branches, Israel is the original branches.

The elect have obtained it, and the rest were hardened: Therefore, God’s saving mercy has been extended not to Israel as a whole, but to the elect among Israel, who have received it - the rest are hardened by their rejection.

There’s no contradiction there.

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the HOUSE of Israel)

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[Curtis]

Well, yes, that’s what the word, apokalupsis, means.
In terms of genre, I’d say it means something like this: “a genre of revelatory literature with a narrative framework, in which a revelation is mediated by an otherworldly being to a human recipient, disclosing a transcendent reality which is both temporal, insofar as it envisages eschatological salvation, and spatial insofar as it involves another supernatural world” (John Collins - Apocalypse, Prophecy and Pseudepigraphy)

After reading that definition, methinks the good professor should add the word ‘verbosity’ to his book title lol

 

[Taken]

John 5:24-25
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

There are two ways we know this is NOT speaking about the resurrection. He is talking eternal life, not new bodies.

Agree.

So when he says “the dead will hear the voice”, we know from the verse IMMEDIATELY prior that when he says those “who hear my voice” will have “eternal life” and have “passed from death to life”.
The two verses go hand in hand and you may not separate them.

Somewhat disagree.
While those verses do go hand in hand...
* They speak of a Division;
"Those who hear and believe"...
^ an hour that IS here and now...
---> and another hour that shall come...
"Those who have not yet heard"...will hear...
And those who WILL HEAR, (accept, believe what they hear), will live.

It's a foreshadow - (in brief)
Currently - primarily Gentiles are grasping the NOW hour. Hearing and Believing.
(The Dead are (Spiritually dead) Jews or Gentiles that have Heard OF, Heard the Word of God (Jesus), and NOT accepted Him as the Word of God, or the Christ (which is the Power of God).
Without the Power of God, no man can become "changed" (soul saved, spirit quickened), and body justified to be risen in glory.
That Hour is coming...soon..."First", expressly TO: Gods "nations" Israel, (collectively the 12 Tribes)...To expressly the "People", of the 12 Tribes.
That occurs During the Tribulation...
First to the Tribe of Judah, In Jerusalem, via Gods Two Witnesses.
Then to the All the 12 Tribes collectively; via
144,000 (12,000 Servants of each Tribe, In the mountain of God,) with a Lamb in their midst, overseeing them.
Lastly to ALL people on Earth, (not yet in Christ), via an Angel of God.
EACH...
the 2 witness in Jerusalem,
the 144,000,
the Angel of God
ALL....have the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their mouths, speaking, teaching, preaching, the Word of God....
SO THAT....None upon the Earth are without the Truth.
SO THAT....No man upon the Earth has an "EXCUSE", they didn't know.
SO THAT...ALL men have opportunity TO freely Choose and become "DIVIDED"...
"With God"....or "Against God"...
SO THAT...that which follows thereafter, IS
The "DIVIDED" (with or without God) Become via the Power of God...SEPARATED...
(For 1,000 years)....
"Division" again occurs.
"Permanent" Separation shall occurs when the
1,000 years are fulfilled.

So, we have the Just who are living, and the Just who are dead. We also have the unjust who are living and the unjust who are dead. You follow?

Agree.

If the bible puts the resurrection of both just and unjust DEAD together. And then also puts together the resurrection of the just living and dead….do we not have an ipso facto sort of conclusion? Where do you pry any of them apart, biblically? After it has just put them together?

The Just and unjust are "alive and dead", but not together.
Speaking of Just and unjust and Dead.
Dead spiritually, (bodily alive or dead)
As you know define the Unjust.
Alive spiritually, (bodily alive or dead)
As you know defines the Just.

All physically DEAD BODIES of the Just and Unjust, return to the earth.
All spiritually ALIVE, "souls, spirits" ...
in their Alive body's ... are together.
"Souls, spirits" Out of the physically dead body's ..are Alive together.

All "spiritually" DEAD, (unsaved) "souls" are alive together. (In Hell)
Their natural "spirits" are physically Dead, with their physically dead body's (never having been born again)...together with all human dead body's that returned to the earth.

Somewhat confusing, unless studied, detail by detail, point by point. But you seem to have the overall Jist of the Big Picture.

Please….explain to me how my salvation and election is NOT part of God’s unique plan of predestination….a plan that is ultimately for HIS glory and praise.

Your salvation and election IS PRECISELY Gods unique plan.
God IS THE AUTHOR.
Only the AUTHOR Knows the Beginning and Ending of what each "character" "WILL elect and DO".
Humans are the "Characters" (so to speak)...
The "Character" knows Not what "he" shall hear, learn, believe, not believe, accept, reject....until the "character himself" is manifested.
THE...Author, God has already MADE available, to every "character" that will be "manifested"... "HOW" every "character"...
CAN hear, learn, believe, accept, or reject"...
The Author (God).
AS each "character" is manifested (naturally born) ... he Freely Chooses, to Hear or not, learn or not, believe or not, accept or not....
"THEN does the "character" KNOW, his own destiny".

We, being manifested (naturally born) "characters", having "already" freely chosen to: hear, learn, believe, accept...already KNOW, our destiny Before the "end" of the "story" (so to speak)...
A "story ending" is typically JUST before the Book is closed.
In this case, "it is not A Book", it's a DOOR.
An open DOOR now, for "characters" to ENTER, now.
Once the DOOR is Closed, Entrance is Denied.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

After reading that definition, methinks the good professor should add the word ‘verbosity’ to his book title lol

Yes, it is fairly wordy. But, given the rather felt need displayed on this board, wordy is not a bad thing. The rather outrageous lack of understanding of the particular genre or willingness to engage with it, even though any scholar worth his salt or his letters would, says something.

 

[Naomi25]

Somewhat disagree.
While those verses do go hand in hand...
* They speak of a Division;
"Those who hear and believe"...
^ an hour that IS here and now...
---> and another hour that shall come...
"Those who have not yet heard"...will hear...
And those who WILL HEAR, (accept, believe what they hear), will live.

“Hand in hand…but speak of division”.
Where in this passage is the section that signals to us that we must divide our understanding here?


John 5:24-25
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

In verse 24 we have Jesus telling those who ‘hears’ that they will ‘have eternal life’. That they have ‘passed from death to life’.
In verse 25 we have Jesus saying that ‘those dead’ will ‘hear the voice of the Son of God’ and ‘those who hear will live’.

In both passages we have people hearing the voice of Christ and moving from death to life.
As for “Is” or “shall come”. I disagree. In verse 24 Jesus says that those who hear his voice “HAS eternal life” and “HAS passed from death to life”. Present tense. In verse 25 he again tells us that the dead “will hear” and “will live”…and that hour IS NOW…present tense again.
Please. Point out the part where we must divide or separate the meanings here.

.
It's a foreshadow - (in brief)
Currently - primarily Gentiles are grasping the NOW hour. Hearing and Believing.
(The Dead are (Spiritually dead) Jews or Gentiles that have Heard OF, Heard the Word of God (Jesus), and NOT accepted Him as the Word of God, or the Christ (which is the Power of God).
Without the Power of God, no man can become "changed" (soul saved, spirit quickened), and body justified to be risen in glory.
That Hour is coming...soon..."First", expressly TO: Gods "nations" Israel, (collectively the 12 Tribes)...To expressly the "People", of the 12 Tribes.
That occurs During the Tribulation...
First to the Tribe of Judah, In Jerusalem, via Gods Two Witnesses.
Then to the All the 12 Tribes collectively; via
144,000 (12,000 Servants of each Tribe, In the mountain of God,) with a Lamb in their midst, overseeing them.
Lastly to ALL people on Earth, (not yet in Christ), via an Angel of God.
EACH...
the 2 witness in Jerusalem,
the 144,000,
the Angel of God
ALL....have the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their mouths, speaking, teaching, preaching, the Word of God....
SO THAT....None upon the Earth are without the Truth.
SO THAT....No man upon the Earth has an "EXCUSE", they didn't know.
SO THAT...ALL men have opportunity TO freely Choose and become "DIVIDED"...
"With God"....or "Against God"...
SO THAT...that which follows thereafter, IS
The "DIVIDED" (with or without God) Become via the Power of God...SEPARATED...
(For 1,000 years)....
"Division" again occurs.
"Permanent" Separation shall occurs when the
1,000 years are fulfilled.

I think both the division and the detail are unnecessary for the text. Both verses say the same thing, really, he just says it in slightly different ways to emphasise it. We know it’s an important issue, because he begins both verses with “truly, truly”…which is what Jesus uses when making an important point.
Yes, people are spiritually dead outside of Christ. But when that embrace him and are made alive in the Spirit, they move from death to life…from judgment into eternal life. As Revelation terms it…the second death will no longer harm us.
As farm as linking Israel into such a verse…any ethnic Jew who embraces Christ will of course move from death to life as well. Romans 11 argues from a large scale move of ethnic Jews to Christ in this manner. But they still must come to Christ as must we all…which means they take the same path…from death to life.
Anything else is not in the text.

.
The Just and unjust are "alive and dead", but not together.

How do you know the Just and unjust dead are “not together”?
The verses that speak of them, only place them together. Where do you get your separation from?

John 5:28-29
[28] Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice [29] and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Daniel 12:1-3
The Time of the End
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [3] And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Here we have two passages clearly speaking about the raising of the dead…BOTH just and unjust. The raising happens AT the same time. There is nothing here to suggest it happens at different times. The only “separation” we get from these passages is their ultimate destination.

Speaking of Just and unjust and Dead.
Dead spiritually, (bodily alive or dead)
As you know define the Unjust.
Alive spiritually, (bodily alive or dead)
As you know defines the Just.

I can’t see what you’re trying to explain here, sorry.
But when it comes to the categories, it’s not difficult or complicated. You either belong to God, or you don’t. And at his return, you’re either already dead, or you’re not.
So…at that point in time, what you have is this: dead ‘just and unjust’ and alive ‘just and unjust’. In other words, when Jesus comes again, there will be dead Christians and dead sinners. And there will be alive Christians, and alive sinners.

.
All physically DEAD BODIES of the Just and Unjust, return to the earth.
All spiritually ALIVE, "souls, spirits" ...
in their Alive body's ... are together.
"Souls, spirits" Out of the physically dead body's ..are Alive together.

All "spiritually" DEAD, (unsaved) "souls" are alive together. (In Hell)
Their natural "spirits" are physically Dead, with their physically dead body's (never having been born again)...together with all human dead body's that returned to the earth.

Somewhat confusing, unless studied, detail by detail, point by point. But you seem to have the overall Jist of the Big Picture.

“All dead bodies of the just AND unjust return to the earth”. Huh. Where is the bible verse for that? Because I’m not familiar with it. The passages I quoted above tell us that there is coming a time when the dead…both just and unjust, will be raised…some to everlasting life, some to everlasting torment. That is not “returning to the earth”. That is either eternal heaven/new earth with Jesus, or the lake of fire.

.
Your salvation and election IS PRECISELY Gods unique plan.
God IS THE AUTHOR.
Only the AUTHOR Knows the Beginning and Ending of what each "character" "WILL elect and DO".
Humans are the "Characters" (so to speak)...
The "Character" knows Not what "he" shall hear, learn, believe, not believe, accept, reject....until the "character himself" is manifested.
THE...Author, God has already MADE available, to every "character" that will be "manifested"... "HOW" every "character"...
CAN hear, learn, believe, accept, or reject"...
The Author (God).
AS each "character" is manifested (naturally born) ... he Freely Chooses, to Hear or not, learn or not, believe or not, accept or not....
"THEN does the "character" KNOW, his own destiny".

We, being manifested (naturally born) "characters", having "already" freely chosen to: hear, learn, believe, accept...already KNOW, our destiny Before the "end" of the "story" (so to speak)...
A "story ending" is typically JUST before the Book is closed.
In this case, "it is not A Book", it's a DOOR.
An open DOOR now, for "characters" to ENTER, now.
Once the DOOR is Closed, Entrance is Denied.

God Bless,
Taken

I’m sorry, I followed very little of that.
The question I was asked was, was I a Calvinist. My answer, I would expect, was obvious…yes. I think the subject is interesting, especially in light of connections with causal determinism….how Paul presents a chain of ideas leading a person towards a point of belief. The intersection between freewill choice on behalf of a person, and the clear hand of God that led him there…well, yes…interesting, and one I’d enjoy knowing more of, if I were being honest.

 

[Waiting on him]

In verse 24 we have Jesus telling those who ‘hears’ that they will ‘have eternal life’. That they have ‘passed from death to life’.
In verse 25 we have Jesus saying that ‘those dead’ will ‘hear the voice of the Son of God’ and ‘those who hear will live’.

In both passages we have people hearing the voice of Christ and moving from death to life.
As for “Is” or “shall come”. I disagree. In verse 24 Jesus says that those who hear his voice “HAS eternal life” and “HAS passed from death to life”. Present tense. In verse 25 he again tells us that the dead “will hear” and “will live”…and that hour IS NOW…present tense again.
Please. Point out the part where we must divide or separate the meanings here.

1 John 3:14 KJV
[14] We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
He was speaking of those in that age that were spiritually dead.

 

[Waiting on him]

All dead bodies of the just AND unjust return to the earth”. Huh. Where is the bible verse for that? Because I’m not familiar with it

Job 20:11 KJV
[11] His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.
Genesis 3:19 KJV
[19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.