Why "LAW" =/= "OLD COVENANT"

[Phoneman777]

No, believers in Christ know Jesus, has the indwelling Holy Spirit and the truth in them. All John is doing is confirming our confidence in Christ. Do you see the contradiction below...1 Jhn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

"A just man falleth seven times and riseth up again." No one is talking about those kinds of sin, for their is obviously grace for these.

The sin that will send a born-again, truly converted Christian to hell is that one sin that, when the Holy Spirit shows it to him, is cherished, jealously guarded, and will not be abandoned, no matter the amount of pleading from the Holy Spirit. It's called in the Bible "presumption", "iniquity", "covering (deliberate known) sin", "rebellion", "the Great Transgression" - there's no grace for these, according to Proverbs 28:13 KJV

Do you agree that the "law" and the "old covenant" are two different things, based on the OP?

 

[Heb 13:8]

"A just man falleth seven times and riseth up again."

And that's what believers do, they fall and rise. We are justified at the cross, as a matter of fact the word "justification" appears only 4 times in the NT, which are all OSAS passages....

Act 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Rom 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Rom 5:16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

No one is talking about those kinds of sin, for their is obviously grace for these.

Phone, Jesus died for all sin. His blood covers quantity not quality.

The sin that will send a born-again, truly converted Christian to hell is that one sin that, when the Holy Spirit shows it to him, is cherished, jealously guarded, and will not be abandoned, no matter the amount of pleading from the Holy Spirit. It's called in the Bible "presumption", "iniquity", "covering (deliberate known) sin", "rebellion", "the Great Transgression" - there's no grace for these, according to Proverbs 28:13 KJV

No, what sends people to hell is unbelief in the death, burial and resurrection.

Do you agree that the "law" and the "old covenant" are two different things, based on the OP?

Whether their two different things or not is beside the point because neither of them saves, only the blood of Christ saves. God bless.

Act 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

 

[Phoneman777]

So, you agree that by replacing "law" with "old covenant" in Romans 3:31, we end up with a ridiculous statement which proves that "law" was not the "old covenant", yes?

 

[Heb 13:8]

So, you agree that by replacing "law" with "old covenant" in Romans 3:31, we end up with a ridiculous statement which proves that "law" was not the "old covenant", yes?

Phone, believers uphold the law to live a pure and good life, not to save themselves or keep their salvation secure.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

God never covenanted an 'old covenant'. The so called 'old covenant' has always been man's collective one man's covenant.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

believers uphold the law to live a pure and good life, not to save themselves or keep their salvation secure.

As in Paradise if a man beheld the snake for the Law, he had to die, so in the wilderness if a man lifted up the snake, for the Law he had to live.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Phone, Jesus died for all sin. His blood covers quantity not quality.

The Reformers called this idolatry. So do I. That’s why the SDA declare Jesus’ ‘humanity’ died, but not his ‘divinity’, as by the pen of Mrs E.G. White, “for that cannot be”… the audacity of the pipsqueaks.

 

[Mjh29]

Did someone say REFORMERS?!?

All kidding aside, you must understand that in the OT, there were different aspects of the Law. There was the cerimonial and the legal law. The legal law, The 10 Commandments as well as others, were given to man to show him what God required of all. The ceremonial law, sacrifices ect., Was a picture if the coming Savior. We no longer need the ceremonial law, for it was once and for all fullfilled in Christ. However, not a jot or tiddle has been removed from thr legal, moral law. God's commandments remain, and we are to express our love for him by keeping them.

 

[tooldtocare]

Are the following “LAWS” set out by God or just suggestions--?

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

Are the above “LAWS” set out by God or just suggestions--?

 

[tooldtocare]

God's commandments remain, and we are to express our love for him by keeping them.

Since the Israeli's have chosen the name of their new found country "Israel" doesn't this also make them obligated to follow His Laws as well-?
just asking

 

[ScottA]

Those among us who preach "Christian freedom = Lawlessness" famously argue that "the Old Covenant was the Law and the New Covenant is Grace". If that's true, we should able to replace "law" with "old covenant" in Scripture, right?

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
Romans 3:31 King James Version

"Do we then make void the (old covenant) through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the (old covenant)."
Romans 3:31 Krazy Juxtaposition Version​

Christians establish the Old Covenant? Which Paul said "waxed old" and "vanished away"?
Clearly, the Law is not the Old Covenant.​

A Covenant is "an agreement between two parties based on mutual promises". In the Old Covenant, "Law" and "Blessings of God" were components of the Old Covenant, to which God and Israel promised to obligate themselves respectively - God promised to bless Israel if Israel promised to obey God's law. The Israelites broke their promise.

So, God decided to replace the Old Covenant with the New Covenant in which He would "write My laws in their minds and on their hearts". The same components remain, except that instead of the Christian promise to obey God's Law, God promises to obey His own law for us and in us when we invite Jesus into our heart.

Same law,(the Moral Law of Ten Commandments, seeing that the Mosaic Law ended at Calvary),
Same blessings,
Same awesome promises of God, minus the weak, promises of man which are prone to failure.

"Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the Cross I cling."
"Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow".

Indeed, and yet we do establish the Law/Old Covenant. As those who are born again of the spirit of God, we are the evidence of things unseen, the promises fulfilled, i.e., the spiritual laws written upon our hearts.

 

[Mjh29]

Since the Israeli's have chosen the name of their new found country "Israel" doesn't this also make them obligated to follow His Laws as well-?
just asking

I believe that all peoples are obligated to keep God's commandments. This is His World, and as such all who inhabit it should obey His Commands. All who don't are committing treason against the most high King. So yes, Israelis as well as all of mankind are obligated to obey Gods law

 

[Phoneman777]

Indeed, and yet we do establish the Law/Old Covenant. As those who are born again of the spirit of God, we are the evidence of things unseen, the promises fulfilled, i.e., the spiritual laws written upon our hearts.

How can we establish the "Old Covenant" when Paul says it was "faulty" due to the weak promises of man, has "waxed old" and vanished away" and no longer exists?
The Old Covenant has been replaced with the New Covenant, where the Ten Commandments is written in our hearts and established by our obedience to them, through the indwelling power of Christ.

 

[ScottA]

How can we establish the "Old Covenant" when Paul says it was "faulty" due to the weak promises of man, has "waxed old" and vanished away" and no longer exists?
The Old Covenant has been replaced with the New Covenant, where the Ten Commandments is written in our hearts and established by our obedience to them, through the indwelling power of Christ.

We establish it in Christ who came, not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. So, when I say we, I mean, we who are in Christ.

 

[Phoneman777]

We establish it in Christ who came, not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. So, when I say we, I mean, we who are in Christ.

Then entire chapter of Hebrews 8 speaks of the replacement of the old with the new:

• the old Earthly high priest replaced with our Heavenly High Priest
• the old Earthly sanctuary replaced with the Heavenly Sanctuary
• the old Earthly sacrifices replaced with the once and for all Sacrifice
• the old Earthly ministry of priests replaced with the Heavenly Ministry of Intercession by our High Priest Jesus
• the old faulty Old Covenant replaced with the "better" New Covenant

The Old Covenant is listed among the rest of these items on this chapter list which are clearly gone forever, so unless you can find a verse anywhere that proves otherwise, we must conclude that we can't interchange the words "Law" with "Old Covenant" in Romans 3:31 KJV because to do so would make the verse say "we establish the Old Covenant".

And since they aren't interchangeable, it proves the Old Covenant is not "the Law".

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

We establish it in Christ who came, not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. So, when I say we, I mean, we who are in Christ.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Law of God, the Ten Commandments are "spiritual":

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

(Notice, "is", not "was". The Law is still present tense, now, "spiritual".)
​

As such, the "flesh", of itself, cannot fuflill anything, since "flesh" is not "spirit". Flesh without Spirit is dead. Flesh with the Spirit, is alive. Walking in the "spirit", a person can by the Holy Ghost keep the "spiritual" Law even in this flesh, even as Jesus did.

 

[ScottA]

Then entire chapter of Hebrews 8 speaks of the replacement of the old with the new:

• the old Earthly high priest replaced with our Heavenly High Priest
• the old Earthly sanctuary replaced with the Heavenly Sanctuary
• the old Earthly sacrifices replaced with the once and for all Sacrifice
• the old Earthly ministry of priests replaced with the Heavenly Ministry of Intercession by our High Priest Jesus
• the old faulty Old Covenant replaced with the "better" New Covenant

The Old Covenant is listed among the rest of these items on this chapter list which are clearly gone forever, so unless you can find a verse anywhere that proves otherwise, we must conclude that we can't interchange the words "Law" with "Old Covenant" in Romans 3:31 KJV because to do so would make the verse say "we establish the Old Covenant".

And since they aren't interchangeable, it proves the Old Covenant is not "the Law".

We both have now quoted the very verse that proves that the law and the old covenant are synonymous, referring to Christ's claim to have come not to destroy, but to fulfill. And to confirm it He also said, "It is finished."

 

[Phoneman777]

We both have now quoted the very verse that proves that the law and the old covenant are synonymous"

Christians can't "establish" the Old Covenant because it has "vanished away" and has been replaced by the New Covenant. What Christians establish is the LAW - when by the indwelling power of Jesus they keep it.

 

[BobRyan]

Those among us who preach "Christian freedom = Lawlessness" famously argue that "the Old Covenant was the Law and the New Covenant is Grace". If that's true, we should able to replace "law" with "old covenant" in Scripture, right?

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
Romans 3:31 King James Version

"Do we then make void the (old covenant) through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the (old covenant)."
Romans 3:31 Krazy Juxtaposition Version​

Christians establish the Old Covenant? Which Paul said "waxed old" and "vanished away"?
Clearly, the Law is not the Old Covenant.​

A Covenant is "an agreement between two parties based on mutual promises". In the Old Covenant, "Law" and "Blessings of God" were components of the Old Covenant, to which God and Israel promised to obligate themselves respectively - God promised to bless Israel if Israel promised to obey God's law. The Israelites broke their promise.

So, God decided to replace the Old Covenant with the New Covenant in which He would "write My laws in their minds and on their hearts". The same components remain, except that instead of the Christian promise to obey God's Law, God promises to obey His own law for us and in us when we invite Jesus into our heart.

Same law,(the Moral Law of Ten Commandments, seeing that the Mosaic Law ended at Calvary),
Same blessings,
Same awesome promises of God, minus the weak, promises of man which are prone to failure.

"Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the Cross I cling."
"Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow".

Good post ... and of course let's not forget just "what" the New Covenant says about God's Law... Jeremiah 31:31-33

 

[BobRyan]

Christians can't "establish" the Old Covenant because it has "vanished away" and has been replaced by the New Covenant.

which says...