veteran said:
There has been a lot of Revisionism going on with the Pre-trib school, even with trying to turn what many of the early Church fathers said into the idea.
http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html
Veteran, absolutely NOTHING in your posts or the link you provided refutes ANYTHING Graceismine said when he posted this:
"In 150, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
In 270 Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader preached it.
In 350 Ephraim the Syrian
In 400, Jerome in the Latin vulgate
Then there were the thousand years called the "dark ages", and then it came back.
In 1304, Reverend Dolcino proclaimed the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1400 Bible translations in the native tongues led to a new propagation of the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1627, Joseph Mede
1627 Increase Mather
1687, Peter Jurieu
1700 John Asgill
1738, Philip Doddridge
1748 John Gill
1763, James McKnight
1744, Morgan Edwards
1792, Thomas Scott
And then in 1830, John Darby
I was just reading three days ago about Epharaem the Syrian. In 373 A.D he said:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
That was over 1600 years ago. So much for:
"The Pre-Wrath position is a modern invention, so is the Pre-Trib position too if one considers that it only began since the 1800's."
When I first became saved I was taught that the Pre-Trib Rapture was a sure thing. Over time I swung to the other side and was convinced it was wrong. Now I am on the fence. I can find scripture that both supports and appears to refute it.
As I said, I am leaning towards Post instead of Pre, but there are still questions put to me by those who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture that I too am unable to answer.
1 Thess. 2:7
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."
- Who is the Restrainer?
- If it is not the Holy Spirit, then who is it?
- If it is the Holy Spirit, then how could God's chosen remain on earth without Him? Indeed, how can be we expected to successfully live without the Holy Spirit inside us?
- If it is the Holy Spirit, but He is able to remain in the Christians that are left on earth, then how could the members of the body not thwart the Anti-Christ via the Holy Spirit at work within them?
Rev. 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
- How will God keep his chosen people
"from the hour of temptation" if this is going to be worldwide?
- What will be done with Christians during this time if this scripture doesn't mean they are taken?
- How can they not be included in the
"to try then that dwell upon the earth" if they are still here on earth?
1 Thess. 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
- How could this possibly be the same event as Rev. 19:11-21? That scripture mentions nothing about raising the dead in Christ first and then calling the living believers to Him in the air before he begins ruining the day for everyone else left on earth. These two scriptures don't seem to reconcile as the same event. One could even make an argument that the "armies of Heaven" mentioned in Rev. 19:14 are those that were "taken up" in 1 Thess. 17.
Scripture goes to great pains to point out that man has
no idea when Christ will return and all will be caught by surprise. He will come "as a thief in the night" etc. etc. etc.
Yet if Christ's only return is at the end of the Tribulation, then everyone KNOWS when He will be returning -- just over 900 days (roughly 3.5 years) after the Anti-Christ reveals himself for who he truly is.
If the true Christians are still on earth, they will recognize who the Anti-Christ is, even before he identifies himself. They will also see through scripture exactly what is going to be happening then and have the timetable for Christ's return. How could the elect POSSIBLY be surprised at when Christ returns then.
So how can Christ return when no one expects Him if the events and timetable from the time the Anti-Christ claims the throne until Christ returns to ruin everyone's day is clearly documented?
If you wish to comment and fill in the blanks, I am all ears. But facts or opinions, please keep it simple, don't bring in unrelateed topics and save the insults. Thanks.
I am simply looking for the truth and am not selling anything.
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