Ok guys, give me a sec to catch up and I will try to get to everyone, without having to write a wall of text..
Joshua David
ENOCH2010 said:
Exhibit #1 The first resurrection is defined in Rev 20. establishing who will be included in said resurrection, along with the timing of when the first resurrection happens.
It happens at the second coming of the Lord, just prior the 1000 year reign. All who have died in the Lord up until that time will be resurrected and given a new immortal body.
I present to the court that if the rapture is to happen before the first resurrection, the Holy Spirit would have had John add the needed 3rd resurrection to the book.
As only 2 mass resurrections ( of a lot of bodies ) occur in the future,the first for those of the Lord, and the second for the damned and the ones that except the Lord during the 1000 year reign.
My question for this witness is Where and when is the resurrection that happens at the same time as the rapture written about in the Bible?
I will concede that there is a mass resurrection at the end of the Tribulation, and I will also concede that John identifies this event as the first resurrection. And let me state up front, this was the one verse, in all of my studying that gave me pause, so Enoch, I want you to know that I really do respect your scholarship, and my rebuttal on this issue my be the weakest part of my whole argument, but let's give it a try, and I would ask that even if I don't answer you to your satisfaction, I hope you would stay with the debate.
(rub hands together)
Before I get to your question, let me say that my answer is going to be long, but I will try to keep is as short as I can. Please bear with me as I seem to jump from topic to topic, because I promise you I will tie it all together.
Let me lay a foundation for my answer by first talking about the Church. and why I believe that while it is included in the First Resurrection, it is not an active participant, when this event takes place at the end of the tribulation.
The Church was an entity that was hinted at in the Old Testament, but was not revealed until the Day of Pentecost. For God to remain true, Jesus had to make a legitimate offer of the Kingdom of God to Israel, even though he knew that Israel was going to reject him as their messiah. Jesus' focus for his entire ministry, from the time he called his first disciple to the time that he rode into Jerusalem, was on the Nation of Israel. We see this time and time again in the scripture. Let me give you a couple of examples.
Jesus response to the gentile woman concerning her daughter...
Matt 15:22-28 22 A woman from Canaan lived near Tyre and Sidon. She came to him and cried out, “Lord! Son of David! Have mercy on me! A demon controls my daughter. She is suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not say a word. So his disciples came to him. They begged him, “Send her away. She keeps crying out after us.”
24 Jesus answered,
“I was sent only to the people of Israel. They are like lost sheep.”
25 Then the woman fell to her knees in front of him. “Lord! Help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “
It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to their dogs.”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she said. “But even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their owners’ table.”
28 Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! You will be given what you are asking for.” And her daughter was healed at that very moment.
Jesus was the bread, and the children in Jesus' response was the Children of Israel. I am sure that kids loved their dogs back in Jesus day as they do today. What Jesus was saying was not an insult, what he was saying was that although she was loved, his focus had to be on the children of Israel. The woman humbly put herself in that position to let Jesus know that she did not want to take anything away from the children of Isreal, but she recognized that Jesus was more than able to heal her daughter without the Children of Israel losing anything.
Mark says it this way...
Mark 7: 27 27 “
First let the children eat all they want,” he told her. “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to their dogs.”
So the focus was entirely on the Children of Israel.
One more example...
Matt 10:5-8 5 Jesus sent these 12 out with the following orders. “
Do not go among those who aren’t Jews,” he said. “
Do not enter any town of the Samaritans. 6
Instead, go to the people of Israel. They are like sheep that have become lost. 7
As you go, preach this message, ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’8 Heal those who are sick. Bring those who are dead back to life. Make those who have skin diseases ‘clean’ again. Drive out demons. You have received freely, so give freely.
When Jesus was talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, he was talking about the Millennium. This was the offer of the Kingdom. For three and a half years, Jesus devoted all of his time reaching out the to the Children of Israel.
This lasted until Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, thus fulfilling prophecy and proclaiming himself as their Messiah. This is the only time that he allowed his followers to worship him as the Messiah. And Israel did not receive him. It is at this time that Jesus focus started to turn to the Gentiles.
After his crucifixion, He even stayed around for 40 more days, giving Israel undeniable proof, that he was who he said he was. And still they rejected him. When Their rejection was complete, Jesus focus turned from the Children of Israel to the Gentile nations. From these nations, he would create His Church, otherwise known as His Bride. We have transitioned from the Age of the Law to the Age of Grace, or The time of the Gentiles. Within the Church, there is no Jew or Gentile, everyone who is saved, becomes a new creation ( which did not happen in the Old Testament )
The Church was born, or created, on the Day of Pentecost, It will be the most blessed people in all of human history. Not because we deserve it, we don't. It will be an example to the angels, to the Old Testament saints, to the Tribulation Saints, and to the Millennium Saints, of God's limitless grace.
Now getting back to your question..... (( I am sorry that took so long, but I wanted to lay a foundation ))
The majority of Israel is blinded. This blindness will remain until the time of the gentiles has come to an end...
Rom 11:25 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that
blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
So Israel can not have their blindness removed until all the Gentiles have come in! Come into what? Well what was Paul talking about in Romans 11?
Paul was contrasting Israel with the Church! Read Rom. 11 if you don't believe me. So come into what? The only obvious answer is come into the Church.
Once the full number of people enter the church, then the rapture happens, and God's focus turns back to Israel. What event does God use to open the eyes of Israel? The battle of Ezek 38. After the battle, Israel will be turning back to God and looking for their Messiah, this is what sets up the conditions for the covenant of Death that they sign with the AC.
But none of this can take place until after the Church is gone, because as long as the church is here, Israel will still remain blinded in part.
Now what is the main thing that defines the "First Resurrection" the fact that they are not hurt by the second death. This applies even if you were resurrected before. Jesus is not resurrected at the "First Resurrection", and yet he will not be hurt by the second death, The saints that were resurrected at the same time when Jesus was resurrected will not be hurt by the second death, and yet they are not resurrected at the end of the tribulation, the two witnesses are not hurt by the second death, and yet they are not resurrected at the end of the tribulation, and Church will not be hurt by the second death, although they would have been raised before the tribulation even started. So who is raised at the end of the tribulation? Any Old testament Saint, that was not raised when Jesus was, and any believer that died during the Tribulation, which I believe will be a number so large that it dwarfs even the church. I believe that there will be more people saved during the seven year tribulation than has been saved from today all the way back to Adam. This is why this "First Resurrection" is named here, and not because it is the first time people are resurrected.
Now.... my turn... Pre-trib exhibit # 1. At the rapture, all believers are changed, and given their glorified bodies, who according to Jesus do not procreate. If the rapture happens at the end of the Tribulation, and only believers go into the Millennium Kingdom, where do the children some of whom are sinners in the Millennium come from?
Isaiah 65:20 20 “No more shall an infant from there
live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the
child shall die one hundred years old,
But
the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
Joshua David
Brother Tom,
Please prove that the multitude that came out of the Great Tribulation is the church. I do not doubt that there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and that the people that are saved will be a Great Multitude, I am just saying that the church is not a part of that multitude. Do you have any evidence that would support your position? I would be happy to discuss it with you. I just disagree with your interpretation.
Joshua David
Trekson,
To directly answer your question, in some cases, maybe. What I get out of this is I believe the latter day church will have an even greater responsibility to the world than the first generation did. I believe they were given a "special" anointing and I believe the church that goes through the great trib will as well. As the body of Christ on earth during those horrendous times we, as a whole, will need to be purer in our walk, then generations before as our opportunity for witness will be much greater. As stated in the OP, we, the last generation church will be the last chance this world will ever have to hear the gospel before billions end up spending eternity in hell. With such a grave responsibility on our shoulders, don't you think it logical that a greater purification be necessary?
First off, do you have any scriptures to support your belief that the latter day church will have a greater responsibility? We can certainly discuss them. As far as the church needing to be purer in our walk, I do not see that in the scriptures. In fact when the bible talks about the Tribulation, to me it is eerily silent. If the church was still here, why would the Lord need to send two special witnesses to Israel? And more importantly, if the church was still here, why would the Lord appoint Angels to preach the gospel?
Rev 14:6 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
Does the Lord have angels preaching the gospel right now? No, that is what he has the church for. So why would He have an Angel preaching the gospel during the Tribulation? Because the church is not there.
Joshua David