WHY WHINE ABOUT WINE, or BE a BEAR ABOUT BEER?

[StanJ]

Are you seriously telling me that the Son has set people free to get drunk?
You know, there are lots of things we are not free to do. We're not free to shoot heroin, for instance. As a matter of fact, we aren't even free to smoke marijuana..
We aren't free to drive recklessly, endangering other people.
We aren't free to have sex with minors...not even if the minor is a well-developed teenager.
We aren't free to order food at a restaurant and then leave without paying.
At this point in time, we are not free to have multiple wives or husbands...although that may change.
Here in this forum, we are not free to flame and/or goad one another, even if we feel that it is justified.
It looks as if "freedom" doesn't mean "free to do anything you want"...does it?

And ALL of this just shows you have no idea what freedom in Christ is. You live your life as if you are still under the OC. You clearly demonstrate you are NOT free in Christ, but bound by your own sense of right and wrong. Seems you've never allowed God to write ANYTHING on your mind and heart?

 

[OzSpen]

Are you seriously telling me that the Son has set people free to get drunk?

You know, there are lots of things we are not free to do. We're not free to shoot heroin, for instance. As a matter of fact, we aren't even free to smoke marijuana...

We aren't free to drive recklessly, endangering other people.

We aren't free to have sex with minors...not even if the minor is a well-developed teenager.

We aren't free to order food at a restaurant and then leave without paying.

At this point in time, we are not free to have multiple wives or husbands...although that may change.

Here in this forum, we are not free to flame and/or goad one another, even if we feel that it is justified.

It looks as if "freedom" doesn't mean "free to do anything you want"...does it?

The Barrd,

Have you defined the meaning of 'free' yet? Definitions are needed because if 'free' means choice, then I am:

• Free to choose to shoot up on heroin;
• I am free to choose to smoke a bong of marijuana:
• I can choose to drive recklessly and endanger people;
• I can choose to order food and not pay for it;
• Etc, etc.

Why am I as a Christian not free to choose to do these things? Can Christians choose to do wrong, i.e. sin?

Or are you speaking of 'free' as meaning 'my freedom in Christ causes me not to want to do these sinful things; God has given me the power of the Spirit to say "no" to sinful behaviour'?

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

Have you defined the meaning of 'free' yet? Definitions are needed because if 'free' means choice, then I am:

• Free to choose to shoot up on heroin;
• I am free to choose to smoke a bong of marijuana:
• I can choose to drive recklessly and endanger people;
• I can choose to order food and not pay for it;
• Etc, etc.

Why am I as a Christian not free to choose to do these things? Can Christians choose to do wrong, i.e. sin?

Or are you speaking of 'free' as meaning 'my freedom in Christ causes me not to want to do these sinful things; God has given me the power of the Spirit to say "no" to sinful behaviour'?

Oz

You are aware, of course, that there are consequences for every choice we make, yes?
Now, to be sure, we all sin...if only in our thoughts.

However, I'd have some serious concerns about someone who calls him/herself a Christian and does the kinds of things listed.

Wouldn't you?

 

[StanJ]

You are aware, of course, that there are consequences for every choice we make, yes?
Now, to be sure, we all sin...if only in our thoughts.

However, I'd have some serious concerns about someone who calls him/herself a Christian and does the kinds of things listed.

Wouldn't you?

IMO, bringing up these type of strawman arguments time and time again, is also a sin, which you deliberately do to cloud the actual issue.

Suffice it to say, I already have serious concerns about some here, and everyday their words just condemn them even more.

 

[OzSpen]

You are aware, of course, that there are consequences for every choice we make, yes?
Now, to be sure, we all sin...if only in our thoughts.

However, I'd have some serious concerns about someone who calls him/herself a Christian and does the kinds of things listed.

Wouldn't you?

Why don't you answer my questions instead of giving me a red herring. What's a red herring? It's exactly what you did. You did not deal with the subject I raised (the questions I asked) but you responded in a way that you thought looked like my subject.

But, in fact, you abandoned the subject I raised - the questions.

We cannot now have a logical discussion about my topic when you do this. A logical fallacy happens when you engage in erroneous logic/reasoning.

Oz

 

[FHII]

So a Pentecostal street preacher walks into a bar. He goes over to a drunk and says, "that shot of whiskey is a one way ticket to HELL!"

The drunk says to the bartender, "Gimmie another whiskey! I need a round-trip ticket!"

 

[StanJ]

So a Pentecostal street preacher walks into a bar. He goes over to a drunk and says, "that shot of whiskey is a one way ticket to HELL!"
The drunk says to the bartender, "Gimmie another whiskey! I need a round-trip ticket!"

:LOL:

 

[River Jordan]

Wine in the Bible was essentially purified water

That's just silly. The whole reason Jews consider wine to be a sacrament is because of the natural fermentation process that produces alcohol, which the Jews consider to be a gift from God. Jesus' turning the water to wine at the Jewish wedding was entirely consistent with that Jewish tradition.

 

[Barrd]

Why don't you answer my questions instead of giving me a red herring. What's a red herring? It's exactly what you did. You did not deal with the subject I raised (the questions I asked) but you responded in a way that you thought looked like my subject.

But, in fact, you abandoned the subject I raised - the questions.

We cannot now have a logical discussion about my topic when you do this. A logical fallacy happens when you engage in erroneous logic/reasoning.

Oz

I like this verse:

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
You are set free from the bondage of
heroin
marijuana
reckless driving
eating disorders
stealing
etc, etc

But you already knew that, Oz.

 

[OzSpen]

I like this verse:

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
You are set free from the bondage of
heroin
marijuana
reckless driving
eating disorders
stealing
etc, etc

But you already knew that, Oz.

The Barrd,

So you give me another red herring.

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

So you give me another red herring.

That's an adorable little fishy...
But how did I give you a red herring?

You wanted to know what I think freedom in Christ means, and I told you. What more do you want, Oz?
Tell me, and I will do my best to give it to you.

 

[OzSpen]

That's an adorable little fishy...
But how did I give you a red herring?

You wanted to know what I think freedom in Christ means, and I told you. What more do you want, Oz?
Tell me, and I will do my best to give it to you.

That is NOT what I wanted to know. This is what I stated in #45:

Why don't you answer my questions instead of giving me a red herring. What's a red herring? It's exactly what you did. You did not deal with the subject I raised (the questions I asked) but you responded in a way that you thought looked like my subject.

But, in fact, you abandoned the subject I raised - the questions.

We cannot now have a logical discussion about my topic when you do this. A logical fallacy happens when you engage in erroneous logic/reasoning.

Oz

What was your reply to #45 in #49:

I like this verse:

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
You are set free from the bondage of
heroin
marijuana
reckless driving
eating disorders
stealing
etc, etc

But you already knew that, Oz.

Your response in #49 had zero to do with what I asked in #45.

What is a red herring logical fallacy? The Nizkor Project gives this explanation of a red herring fallacy:

Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

That's exactly what The Barrd did.

1. Oz's topic was ignored by The Barrd. She did not answer Oz's questions.
2. The Barrd introduced her own topic on Rom 8:21;
3. So, Oz's topic was abandoned.

So, The Barrd's reasoning is erroneous or fallacious because she merely changed the topic. Thus, she did not deal with the issues Oz raised.

Simply put: When you don't answer what Oz wrote and go to your spin, you have produced a red herring fallacy or you have thrown up a smoke screen. Logical, rational discussion is impossible when you do that.

I urge you to get to know the major logical fallacies that people use as illustrated in the Nizkor Project: Fallacies. All of us can be capable of using them and so ruin reasonable discussion. You ahve done it here with your use of a red herring logical fallacy against me.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

Oz,
Maybe you were not aware, but this was a conversation already in progress:

The Barrd
Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:27 PM
Maybe when it comes to something as deadly and devastating as alcohol, that freedom needs to be limited.

StanJ
Posted 07 February 2016 - 06:16 PM


Not what Jesus said in John 8:36 Barrd, and, as has already been established, it is only that way for irresponsible and reckless people, along with those who are alcoholics

The Barrd
Posted 07 February 2016 - 07:33 PM


Are you seriously telling me that the Son has set people free to get drunk?

You know, there are lots of things we are not free to do. We're not free to shoot heroin, for instance. As a matter of fact, we aren't even free to smoke marijuana...

We aren't free to drive recklessly, endangering other people.

We aren't free to have sex with minors...not even if the minor is a well-developed teenager.

We aren't free to order food at a restaurant and then leave without paying.

At this point in time, we are not free to have multiple wives or husbands...although that may change.

Here in this forum, we are not free to flame and/or goad one another, even if we feel that it is justified.

It looks as if "freedom" doesn't mean "free to do anything you want"...does it?

That was me, saying that our faith in Christ does not give us freedom to do whatever we may feel like doing.
Which you immediately challenged, for some reason:

OzSpen
Posted 08 February 2016 - 03:33 AM

The Barrd,

Have you defined the meaning of 'free' yet? Definitions are needed because if 'free' means choice, then I am:

• Free to choose to shoot up on heroin;
• I am free to choose to smoke a bong of marijuana:
• I can choose to drive recklessly and endanger people;
• I can choose to order food and not pay for it;
• Etc, etc.

Why am I as a Christian not free to choose to do these things? Can Christians choose to do wrong, i.e. sin?

Or are you speaking of 'free' as meaning 'my freedom in Christ causes me not to want to do these sinful things; God has given me the power of the Spirit to say "no" to sinful behaviour'?

Oz

I tried to explain that there are consequences for these behaviors:

The Barrd
Posted 09 February 2016 - 09:06 AM

You are aware, of course, that there are consequences for every choice we make, yes?
Now, to be sure, we all sin...if only in our thoughts.

However, I'd have some serious concerns about someone who calls him/herself a Christian and does the kinds of things listed.

Wouldn't you?

But that was not the answer you were looking for.

OzSpen
Posted 09 February 2016 - 06:04 PM
Why don't you answer my questions instead of giving me a red herring. What's a red herring? It's exactly what you did. You did not deal with the subject I raised (the questions I asked) but you responded in a way that you thought looked like my subject.

But, in fact, you abandoned the subject I raised - the questions.

We cannot now have a logical discussion about my topic when you do this. A logical fallacy happens when you engage in erroneous logic/reasoning.

Oz

Now I'm not sure what it is that you want, but what the heck, I'm willing to try to please you. Perhaps you want me to point out what is meant by "freedom in Christ". Certainly relevant to the conversation, and the kind of thing you'd be trying to draw out of me, or at least that's what I thought. So, says I to myself, what the heck...I'll oblige:

The Barrd
Posted Yesterday, 08:39 PM





I like this verse:

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
You are set free from the bondage of
heroin
marijuana
reckless driving
eating disorders
stealing
etc, etc

But you already knew that, Oz.

Now, that's a perfect verse, and fits well into the context of the conversation.
Or at least that's what I thought...

And then you sent me the pretty little fishy...

But Oz, I am not sure just what the heck it is you want here.
You want to know if a Christian can choose to do wrong? I answered you. There are consequences for every choice we make.

You want to know if freedom in Christ means that we are set free from our sinful desires? I answered that, too.

You want to know if we're having fish for dinner? No. We're having meatloaf.

 

[Barrd]

​

​

Yummy​

​

I meant the food, of course​

​

 

[Barrd]

Now, what was the topic of this thread again?

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Very interesting, heartfelt topic.

I have heard so many varying opinions on this.

If you have struggled with addiction you know how it truly makes you a "slave" to sin as Jesus said.

Both my parents struggled with addiction. One of them is still here and still struggling to my knowledge. And I'm pretty sure her Baptist church says no alcohol at all is acceptable as they even use grape juice for communion. And the others in my family who are Christian believe it is totally unacceptable.

Agree with Stan it can be done but should be done only in moderation. If Jesus was making it in a wedding it can't be that bad. It's the person that abuses it that is bad.

Cocaine used to be used for delicate eye surgeries. It may still be in some countries. So everything is good and has natural purpose, it's us that are evil minded and twist everything lol.

I'm so glad the Lord has given me grace and not let me fall into my parents sin. Anytime I have ever drank too much i end up on my knees in front of the porcelain throwing it all up. I don't have the stomach for it at large amounts, and with my family history of addiction, that's a good thing.

God bless and thanks for sharing and listening.

 

[Barrd]

Very interesting, heartfelt topic.

I have heard so many varying opinions on this.

If you have struggled with addiction you know how it truly makes you a "slave" to sin as Jesus said.

Both my parents struggled with addiction. One of them is still here and still struggling to my knowledge. And I'm pretty sure her Baptist church says no alcohol at all is acceptable as they even use grape juice for communion. And the others in my family who are Christian believe it is totally unacceptable.

Agree with Stan it can be done but should be done only in moderation. If Jesus was making it in a wedding it can't be that bad. It's the person that abuses it that is bad.

Cocaine used to be used for delicate eye surgeries. It may still be in some countries. So everything is good and has natural purpose, it's us that are evil minded and twist everything lol.

I'm so glad the Lord has given me grace and not let me fall into my parents sin. Anytime I have ever drank too much i end up on my knees in front of the porcelain throwing it all up. I don't have the stomach for it at large amounts, and with my family history of addiction, that's a good thing.

God bless and thanks for sharing and listening.

I'm sorry to hear about your parents, Spiritus.

I know what you mean about kneeling before the porcelain. Like you, I have no stomach for alcohol. I have a "three drink limit"...after that, and I'm going to be sick.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

I'm sorry to hear about your parents, Spiritus.

I know what you mean about kneeling before the porcelain. Like you, I have no stomach for alcohol. I have a "three drink limit"...after that, and I'm going to be sick.

Thanks, Barrd.

Maybe God made us that way purposely so we don't fall into that sin? I'd like to believe it anyhow.

 

[Barrd]

Thanks, Barrd.

Maybe God made us that way purposely so we don't fall into that sin? I'd like to believe it anyhow.

Perhaps that is so, Spiritus. There was a dark time in my life when I might have easily fallen, if I were not as I am.
God loves us so much that He has given us the gift of nausea...I like it. I had never looked at it that way before...but I can see how it could be so.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Perhaps that is so, Spiritus. There was a dark time in my life when I might have easily fallen, if I were not as I am.
God loves us so much that He has given us the gift of nausea...I like it. I had never looked at it that way before...but I can see how it could be so.

Haha...Well, His ways are above our ways, I guess