WHY WHINE ABOUT WINE, or BE a BEAR ABOUT BEER?

[StanJ]

Well, time ya'll learned something new about me. I am a recovered alcoholic. And by the grace of God I am still here to tell you about it. Alcoholism is a terrible thing. I don't mind if people drink without being stupid. I also could not care less if it were illegal. It doesn't really matter to me. With the strength of God, I have been sober for a looooong time. I don't drink anymore and haven't had a drink of any sorts since a glass of wine in March in 2015. I simply don't need it. So, there's my short story.
God Bless,
BA

Thanks for being real BA. I pray God RICHLY blesses you.

 

[OzSpen]

I knew I remembered reading somewhere that drinking wine unmixed with water was something uncivilized...only barbarians and Scythians would do such a thing.

:huh:

Uh, Oz?



Ummm....

What's a Scythian???? :unsure:

The Barrd,

Scythians were a nomadic (wandering) group of people in the region around Iran today who are known from about the 9th century. BC. Greek historian Herodotus was the first to write about them.

Here is a brief article about them in Encyclopaedia Britannica (S v Scythian).

Blessings,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The official NIAAA (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism)position is that "alcoholism is a disease. The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems.

The issue here is NOT that some people become alcoholics, it is whether those who aren't predisposed to that disease may drink if they are also believers. I see NOTHING you gave shown to refute that they may.

As to what sounds like a disease to you, only is valid if your doctorate is defined by MD.

Stan,

I have been a counsellor for 34 years who has had to deal with more than my fair share of those who have drunk alcohol to excess and I've seen the impact on individuals and families. I don't need an MD to tell me what the Scripture says is the sin of unrighteousness, drunkenness..

Alcoholism as a disease is a secular diagnosis. You have not dealt with the Scriptures I supplied. Why not?

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

I have been a counsellor for 34 years who has had to deal with more than my fair share of those who have drunk alcohol to excess and I've seen the impact on individuals and families. I don't need an MD to tell me what the Scripture says is the sin of unrighteousness, drunkenness..

Alcoholism as a disease is a secular diagnosis. You have not dealt with the Scriptures I supplied. Why not?

Oz

Drunkenness is NOT alcoholism Oz. Not sure what you want me to deal with? You made the assertion that it is not a disease and is the same as drunkeness. Maybe you should connect you own dots?

 

[OzSpen]

Drunkenness is NOT alcoholism Oz. Not sure what you want me to deal with? You made the assertion that it is not a disease and is the same as drunkeness. Maybe you should connect you own dots?

Drunkenness may lead to alcoholism. Seems as though you don't want to deal with the issues I've raised about alcohol and the Christian.

Take a read of the abstracts of these journal articles that link drinking and drunkenness with alcoholism or addiction:

• Situational norms for drinking and drunkenness: trends in the US adult population, 1979–1990 (published in Addiction journal 1997);
• The Life Study of Alcoholism: Putting Drunkenness in Biographical Context (Bulletin of the Society of Psychologists in Addictive Behaviors, 5(1): 49­53, 1986)

Addiction often is more than drunkenness as it moves to dependence. However, Dr Stanton Peele (PhD psychology) considers that addiction is not a disease.

 

[Barrd]

Well, time ya'll learned something new about me. I am a recovered alcoholic. And by the grace of God I am still here to tell you about it. Alcoholism is a terrible thing. I don't mind if people drink without being stupid. I also could not care less if it were illegal. It doesn't really matter to me. With the strength of God, I have been sober for a looooong time. I don't drink anymore and haven't had a drink of any sorts since a glass of wine in March in 2015. I simply don't need it. So, there's my short story.

God Bless,

BA

Wow, BA....thank you for sharing that with us.
I am so thankful to know that you beat it...next month you will have been sober for an entire year! (Or more?)
I, for one, am very, very proud of you, BA...both for being sober for so long, and for having the guts to share your struggle with us. May God bless you.

Congratulations!!
Good job, BA!

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

Scythians were a nomadic (wandering) group of people in the region around Iran today who are known from about the 9th century. BC. Greek historian Herodotus was the first to write about them.

Here is a brief article about them in Encyclopaedia Britannica (S v Scythian).

Blessings,
Oz

Thanks, Oz!

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks, Oz!

My pleasure!

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I didn't say it the same as today. Modern wine making is much more sophisticated.

Tim Greenwood writes;
There are four different Greek words which are translated in the New Testament as "wine." These words are as follows:
G3631 - oy'-nos: wine, from yah-yin: meaning to effervesce (or fermented). (Used most places throughout the New Testament.)
G1098 - glyoo'-kos: (or glucose or a liquid fruit sugar), or a syrupy sweet fruit juice. (Used only one time.)
G3943 - par'-oy-nos: (From two words: 1. Para: near and 2. G3631 wine), meaning addicted to wine. (Used only twice.)
G3632 - oy-of-loog-ee'-ah: (From two words: 1. G3631 wine and 2. Floo'or-os: bubbly or to talk incessantly), meaning drunkenness or drunk on wine. (Used only once.)
And none of these words are interchangeable.

You can find much more at the following link, but for now, IMO, Geisler is flawed in his understanding.
https://www.tgm.org/WineInTheNewTestament.html

I could make all these facts known myself, but as it has already been done, I'll save myself the work.

Stan,

I have never heard of Tim Greenwood, but I see on the homepage, Tim Greenwood Ministries, that he believes healing is in the atonement. That places his theology in a controversial camp.

I will not use the language of 'healing in the atonement' because the inference is that it is placed on the same level as salvation. I have addressed some of these issues in my article, DIVINE HEALING: IS IT FOR EVERYONE?

So you prefer Tim Greenwood to Dr Norman Geisler, making Tim Greenwood correct and Norman Geisler wrong on the issue of wine and strong drink.

I'll leave that for others to judge. For me, I consider the teachings of both Greenwood and Geisler as I do any other teaching, according to Acts 17:11 (ESV), 'Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so'.

I have found the case that Geisler made to be on solid biblical grounds, but as I said at the end of my post #16, 'What I've said here will probably go down like a lead balloon'. For you it has gone down like a Greenwood lead balloon.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

I have never heard of Tim Greenwood, but I see on the homepage, Tim Greenwood Ministries, that he believes healing is in the atonement. That places his theology in a controversial camp.

I will not use the language of 'healing in the atonement' because the inference is that it is placed on the same level as salvation. I have addressed some of these issues in my article, DIVINE HEALING: IS IT FOR EVERYONE?

So you prefer Tim Greenwood to Dr Norman Geisler, making Tim Greenwood correct and Norman Geisler wrong on the issue of wine and strong drink.

I'll leave that for others to judge. For me, I consider the teachings of both Greenwood and Geisler as I do any other teaching, according to Acts 17:11 (ESV), 'Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so'.

I have found the case that Geisler made to be on solid biblical grounds, but as I said at the end of my post #16, 'What I've said here will probably go down like a lead balloon'. For you it has gone down like a Greenwood lead balloon.

Oz

Healing is in the atonement, but NOT the issue. You've never read Is 53:5?

Also if you don't want counter views then why post others at all? Do you honestly think I opened this OP with no perspective or knowledge of the subject matter?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-water-wine.html
http://churchhistory101.com/wine-alcohol-bible.php
https://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol

I'm sure I can pull links all day long that support my POV, so please get down to your actual knowledge of what IS conveyed in the NT because dueling links is not what my in purpose was here.

 

[StanJ]

Drunkenness may lead to alcoholism. Seems as though you don't want to deal with the issues I've raised about alcohol and the Christian.

Take a read of the abstracts of these journal articles that link drinking and drunkenness with alcoholism or addiction:

• Situational norms for drinking and drunkenness: trends in the US adult population, 1979–1990 (published in Addiction journal 1997);
• The Life Study of Alcoholism: Putting Drunkenness in Biographical Context (Bulletin of the Society of Psychologists in Addictive Behaviors, 5(1): 49­53, 1986)

Addiction often is more than drunkenness as it moves to dependence. However, Dr Stanton Peele (PhD psychology) considers that addiction is not a disease.

Yes and eating food can lead to gluttony and obeseness, and taking to many pain killers can lead to dependency, just like alcohol.
You seem to have missed my closing sentence in the OP? Maybe you yourself should take that into consideration?

 

[OzSpen]

Healing is in the atonement, but NOT the issue. You've never read Is 53:5?

Also if you don't want counter views then why post others at all? Do you honestly think I opened this OP with no perspective or knowledge of the subject matter?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-water-wine.html
http://churchhistory101.com/wine-alcohol-bible.php
https://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol

I'm sure I can pull links all day long that support my POV, so please get down to your actual knowledge of what IS conveyed in the NT because dueling links is not what my in purpose was here.

Stan,

If you continue with this kind of inflammatory response, I'll not reply. What I stated about Tim Greenwood did not deserve this kind of goading.

If this is all you intend to do, I'll not bother to reply.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Yes and eating food can lead to gluttony and obeseness, and taking to many pain killers can lead to dependency, just like alcohol.
You seem to have missed my closing sentence in the OP? Maybe you yourself should take that into consideration?

That's a red herring fallacy of a response.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

If you continue with this kind of inflammatory response, I'll not reply. What I stated about Tim Greenwood did not deserve this kind of goading.

If this is all you intend to do, I'll not bother to reply.

Oz

It was NOT inflammatory at all Oz, but that is something you report, not accuse someone of. We have a reporting system here for just that purpose.
Maybe that's a good idea, seeing as you seem to think only your sources are reliable and you don't like being challenged by other refutations?
That's your choice, but I'll not alter how I respond when you basically always seem to post questionable sources lately, or accuse people of things they are NOT doing.

 

[StanJ]

That's a red herring fallacy of a response.

No it's not. You seem to like accusing people of such thinking nobody knows what it is? That is disingenuous and simply shows you really don't know what a red herring actually is. The point was in direct response to the rational YOU were using.

 

[Barrd]

You guys can argue over just about anything...

Couldn't we have left it at, "Alcohol is bad...don't drink and drive"??

 

[StanJ]

You guys can argue over just about anything...

Couldn't we have left it at, "Alcohol is bad...don't drink and drive"??

We WERE pretty much there, but some people want to impose their personal lifestyles on everyone. The bad things are NOT the issue here, as I'm sure we all agree on those. It's the freedom that some have that others want to limit.

 

[Barrd]

We WERE pretty much there, but some people want to impose their personal lifestyles on everyone. The bad things are NOT the issue here, as I'm sure we all agree on those. It's the freedom that some have that others want to limit.

Maybe when it comes to something as deadly and devastating as alcohol, that freedom needs to be limited.

 

[StanJ]

Maybe when it comes to something as deadly and devastating as alcohol, that freedom needs to be limited.

Not what Jesus said in John 8:36 Barrd, and, as has already been established, it is only that way for irresponsible and reckless people, along with those who are alcoholics.

 

[Barrd]

Are you seriously telling me that the Son has set people free to get drunk?

You know, there are lots of things we are not free to do. We're not free to shoot heroin, for instance. As a matter of fact, we aren't even free to smoke marijuana...

We aren't free to drive recklessly, endangering other people.

We aren't free to have sex with minors...not even if the minor is a well-developed teenager.

We aren't free to order food at a restaurant and then leave without paying.

At this point in time, we are not free to have multiple wives or husbands...although that may change.

Here in this forum, we are not free to flame and/or goad one another, even if we feel that it is justified.

It looks as if "freedom" doesn't mean "free to do anything you want"...does it?