Will the real "Antichrist" please stand up?

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brakelite

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Retrobyuter, thanks for your detailed response. While I have an appreciation for your view, and Iagree that in part, these prophecies haveindeed been fulfilled in a limited capacity, I am convinced that they have a double application and will apply globally in the not too distant future. There is much aboutprophecy that has this double application. Much of what in the OT was localised, literal, and limited to the Middle East, in NT times have a global spiritual application. An example of this is the localised literal beasts of Daniel 7. Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and Rome. In the NT however we see the beast of Revel 13 with its 7 heads rising. The first 4 of these heads are representative of the first 4 literal OT empires and beasts, however, the other 3 are spiritual empires of the NT, and they are global. Atheism, Catholicism, and apostate protestantism. ( I know many will argue with this, but I have good sound Biblical and historical reasons for holding to it.)
Another example of OT prophecy having two applications is in the destruction of Jerusalem. In 70ad this was localised, and literal. In the near future however we will see a global destruction mirroring Jerusalem, a parallel. There are many such parallels throughout scrip[ture. Those prophecies which I quoted from Jeremiah and Isaiaih are such examples. Even the language, which you say, and correctly, applies to the "land", eg. ארץ ‘erets Israel, does have an extended meaning that can equally apply to the entire planet.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, brakelite.

brakelite said:
Retrobyter, thanks for your detailed response. While I have an appreciation for your view, and Iagree that in part, these prophecies haveindeed been fulfilled in a limited capacity, I am convinced that they have a double application and will apply globally in the not too distant future. There is much aboutprophecy that has this double application. Much of what in the OT was localised, literal, and limited to the Middle East, in NT times have a global spiritual application. An example of this is the localised literal beasts of Daniel 7. Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and Rome. In the NT however we see the beast of Revel 13 with its 7 heads rising. The first 4 of these heads are representative of the first 4 literal OT empires and beasts, however, the other 3 are spiritual empires of the NT, and they are global. Atheism, Catholicism, and apostate protestantism. ( I know many will argue with this, but I have good sound Biblical and historical reasons for holding to it.)
Another example of OT prophecy having two applications is in the destruction of Jerusalem. In 70ad this was localised, and literal. In the near future however we will see a global destruction mirroring Jerusalem, a parallel. There are many such parallels throughout scrip[ture. Those prophecies which I quoted from Jeremiah and Isaiaih are such examples. Even the language, which you say, and correctly, applies to the "land", eg. ארץ ‘erets Israel, does have an extended meaning that can equally apply to the entire planet.
Okay. I think that it's a dangerous proposition to suggest a fulfilled prophecy can be fulfilled AGAIN in some more nebulous way, but believe what you will. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Actually, I've NEVER seen a prophecy have more than a single fulfillment, and you might consider this: How can we KNOW that a prophecy has been fulfilled if indeed it has MULTIPLE fulfillments? And yet, the children of Isra'el were instructed to condemn a prophet whose prophecies didn't come true as prophesied! Just some things to think about.
 

DaDad

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Hi brakelite,

brakelite said:
... Daniel 7. Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and Rome. In the NT however we see the beast of Revel 13 with its 7 heads rising. The first 4 of these heads are representative of the first 4 literal OT empires and beasts, however, the other 3 are spiritual empires of the NT,
I think if you read Dan. 2:45, you should find that there are FIVE world empires, -- Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. Thus Chapter 2 and Chapter 7 CANNOT be redundant. Furthermore the FIFTH empire of Clay is "divided" between at least two world powers, and world history tells us that we have THREE superpowers. And coincidentally, we arrive to Chapter 7:

Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
Bear, Russia
Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China
"dreadful", United Nations

And again Rev. 13:

Mouth of the Lion, U.K./U.S. technology, finance, and commerce
Body of the Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China with the largest mass of population
Feet of the Bear, Russia with the largest land mass (8M vs 3M for Canada, U.S., & China)


As such there should be no dual prophecies under these verses.


With Best Regards,
DD


PS If you wish to evaluate the implications of the three-ribs, or the four-heads/four-wings, it would be a simple exercise.
 

Floyd

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, brakelite.


Time to put on the brake lights! The Scriptures that you have quoted are NOT universal statements! They were specifically for those times in which they were written! For instance, Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah), the "Weeping Prophet," was the prophet who personally SAW the captivity occur when Y'hudah (Judah) was taken captive to Bavel (Babylon)! He WITNESSED the destruction and SAW their God (and our God), YHWH (translated "the LORD"), turn them over for destruction and captivity!

One of the most difficult things for Christians who have not formally studied Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) and Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) is to understand that "earth" does NOT always mean the whole planet! Most often, it should be rendered as "Land," referring specifically to the "Land of Isra'el." Then, secondly, it may be talking about all the land both in Isra'el and those nations surrounding Isra'el! The point is that this is a JEWISH book written by JEWISH people to JEWISH people! Particular clues as to WHICH "land" the human author was intending is often found in the NAMES that are recorded in those works! For instance, in Jeremiah 25:26, the name "Sheshach" should have been a clue for you!

I would also advise you to find a translation of the Bible that is closer to the meaning of the words. Don't look for something that tickles the ears; that is, makes you go, "Ooooh! Cool! I've never seen THAT before!" Generally speaking and as a rule of thumb, look for a version that sounds NATURAL to your ears. The simpler the words, the more profound the message. This is one reason why the KJV has been such a good version for so long. The NIV (New International Version) or the CJB (the Complete Jewish Bible) are good versions as well; however, the NIV doesn't have nearly the Jewish background emphasis that the CJB does, although the CJB may have too much of a particular theological point of view embedded within its translation. There are gives and takes on EVERY English version of the Bible you may find, but if you find one that sounds close to the way you normally talk, you will have found a better version for you. Also, you need to find a version that gives an appropriate emphasis on WHO wrote the book (from a human perspective) and to WHOM did he write!

Always be sure to CHECK THE CONTEXT of the passage you are quoting! A single verse or even a long chapter yanked out of context can leave a person baffled about what the author is writing. Here's a broader context of Jeremiah 25:26-33:

Jeremiah 25:1-33
25:1 This is the word that came to Yirmeyahu concerning all the people of Y’hudah in the fourth year of Y’hoyakim the son of Yoshiyahu, king of Y’hudah; this was also the first year of N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel. 2 Yirmeyahu the prophet proclaimed it before all the people of Y’hudah and all the inhabitants of Yerushalayim: 3 “For twenty-three years, since the thirteenth year of Yoshiyahu the son of Amon, king of Y’hudah, until today, the word of Adonai has come to me; and I have proclaimed it to you on numerous occasions; but you haven’t listened. 4 Moreover, Adonai sent you all his servants the prophets — again, on numerous occasions — but you didn’t listen or pay attention. 5 The message was always: ‘Every one of you, turn back from his evil way, from the evil of your actions. Then you will live in the land Adonai gave you and your ancestors forever and ever. 6 Don’t follow other gods by serving and worshipping them. “Don’t provoke my anger with things your own hands have made; then I will do you no harm. 7 But you wouldn’t listen to me,” says Adonai, “so that you could provoke me with the products of your hands, to your own harm.”

8 “Therefore, here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot says: ‘Because you haven’t paid attention to what I’ve been saying, 9 I’m going to send for all the families of the north,’ says Adonai, ‘and for my servant N’vukhadretzar the king of Bavel, and bring them against this land, against its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them, making them an object of horror and ridicule, a perpetual ruin. 10 Moreover, I will silence among them the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bridegroom and bride, the grinding of millstones and the light of lamps. 11 This entire land will become a ruin, a waste; and these nations will serve the king of Bavel for seventy years. 12 But when the seventy years are over, I will punish the king of Bavel and that nation for their sin,’ says Adonai, ‘and I will turn the land of the Kasdim into everlasting ruins. 13 I will inflict on that land all my words that I have decreed against it, everything written in this book, in which Yirmeyahu has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For they too will become slaves to many nations and to powerful kings; I will pay them back according to their deeds and the work of their own hands.’
15 “For here is what Adonai the God of Isra’el says to me: ‘Take this cup of the wine of fury from my hand, and make all the nations where I am sending you drink it. 16 They will drink, stagger to and fro and behave like crazy people because of the sword that I will send among them.’”
17 Then I took the cup from Adonai’s hand and made all the nations drink, where Adonai had sent me — 18 Yerushalayim and the cities of Y’hudah, along with their kings and leaders, to make them a ruin and an object of horror, ridicule and cursing, as it is today; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, with his servants and leaders and all his people, both native 20 and foreign; all the kings of the land of ‘Utz; all the kings of the land of the P’lishtim, Ashkelon, ‘Azah, ‘Ekron and those remaining in Ashdod; 21 Edom, Mo’av, and the people of ‘Amon; 22 all the kings of Tzor, of Tzidon and of the coastlands across the sea; 23 D’dan, Teima, Buz and all who cut the corners of their beards; 24 all the kings of Arabia and of the mixed peoples living in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, of ‘Eilam and of the Medes; 26 and all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another — indeed, all the kingdoms of the world that there are on the surface of the earth. And the king of Sheshakh will drink last of all.
27 “You are to say to them, ‘Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says: Drink until you’re so drunk that you throw up, fall down, and never get up again, because of the sword I am sending among you!’ 28 If they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink it, then say to them, ‘Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot says: You must drink! 29 For, look! — if I am bringing disaster on the city that bears my own name, do you expect to go unpunished? Yes, I will summon a sword for all the inhabitants of the earth,’ says Adonai.
30 “As for you, [Yirmeyahu,] prophesy all these words against them; say to them,
‘Adonai is roaring from on high,
raising his voice from his holy dwelling,
roaring with might against his own habitation,
shouting out loud, like those who tread grapes,
against everyone living on earth.
31 The sound resounds to the ends of the earth,
for Adonai is indicting the nations,
about to pass judgment on all humankind;
the wicked he has handed over to the sword,’
says Adonai.” 32 Thus says Adonai-Tzva’ot:
“Disaster is spreading from nation to nation,
a mighty tempest is being unleashed
from the farthest ends of the earth.”
33 On that day, those killed by Adonai will be strewn
from one end of the earth to the other;
they will not be mourned or gathered or buried,
but will lie on the ground like dung.
CJB


Therefore, although this was indeed a prophecy as related by Yirmeyahu's hand, it is FULFILLED prophecy and has NOTHING to do with OUR future! To think to use it as some prophecy that still needs to be fulfilled is an error. One must be more discerning than that.

Jeremiah 4:23-28 is likewise a prophecy that has already been fulfilled:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
4:1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai,
“yes, return to me; and if you will banish
your abominations from my presence
without wandering astray again;
2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’
in truth, justice and righteousness;
then the nations will bless themselves by him,
and in him will they glory.”
3 For here is what Adonai says
to the people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim:
“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed,
and do not sow among thorns.”
4 “People of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim,
circumcise yourselves for Adonai,
remove the foreskins of your heart!
Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire,
burning so hot that no one can quench it,
because of how evil your actions are.
5 “Announce in Y’hudah, proclaim in Yerushalayim;
say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’
Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble!
Let us go to the fortified cities!’
6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon,
head for cover without delay.
For I will bring disaster from the north,
yes, dire destruction.
7 A lion has risen from his lair,
a destroyer of nations has set out,
left his own place to ruin your land,
to demolish and depopulate your cities.”
8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth,
lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger
has not turned away from us.

9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“the king’s heart will fail him,
likewise the princes’;
the cohanim will be appalled
and the prophets stupefied.”
10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”
11 “At that time it will be said
of this people and of Yerushalayim:
‘A scorching wind from the desert heights
is sweeping down on my people.’
It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;
12 this wind of mine is too strong for that.
Now I will pass sentence on them.”
13 Here he comes, like the clouds,
his chariots like the whirlwind,
his horses faster than eagles!
Woe to us, we are doomed!
14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim,
so that you can be saved.
How long will you harbor within yourselves
your evil thoughts?
15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim:
16 “Report it to the nations,
proclaim about Yerushalayim:
‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country,
watching and shouting their war cry
against the cities of Y’hudah.’
17 Like guards in a field they surround her,
because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.
18 “Your own ways and your actions
have brought these things on yourselves.
This is your wickedness, so bitter!
It has reached your very heart.”
19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain!
My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! —
because I have heard the shofar sound;
it’s the call to war.
20 The news is disaster after disaster!
All the land is ruined!
My tents are suddenly destroyed,
my tent curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see that signal
and hear the shofar sound?
22 “It is because my people are foolish —
they do not know me; they are stupid children,
without understanding, wise when doing evil;
but they don’t know how to do good.”
23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void —
and at the sky — it had no light.
24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook —
all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I looked, and there was no human being;
all the birds in the air had fled.
26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert,
all the land’s cities were razed to the ground
at the presence of Adonai,
before his burning anger.
27 For here is what Adonai says:
“The whole land will be desolate
(although I will not destroy it completely).
28 Because of this, the land will mourn
and the sky above be black;
for I have spoken, I have decided,
I will not change my mind, I will not turn back.”
29 At the noise of the horsemen and archers,
the entire city flees —
some plunge into thickets; others climb rocks;
all cities are deserted; no one lives there.
30 And you, who are doomed to be plundered,
what do you mean by putting on crimson,
decking yourselves with jewels and gold,
enlarging your eyes with eye make-up?
You beautify yourself in vain —
your lovers despise you, they seek your life!
31 For I have heard a sound like a woman in labor,
in anguish giving birth to her first child.
It is the sound of the daughter of Tziyon
gasping for breath as she spreads her hands:
“Woe to me! Everything in me
is so weary before the killers.”
CJB


So, again, the passage, although indeed a prophecy, is a FULFILLED prophecy and is not to be fulfilled again!

Even the context of Isaiah 24:1-6 is not all inclusive of the whole earth but is restricted to the Land of Isra'el (although this may indeed be a prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled).

Isa 24:1-23
24:1 Look! Adonai is stripping
and destroying the land,
turning it upside down
and scattering its inhabitants —
2 cohen and commoner, slave and master,
maid and mistress, buyer and seller,
lender and borrower, creditor and debtor.
3 The land will be completely stripped,
completely plundered,
for Adonai has spoken this word.
4 The land fades and withers,
the world wilts and withers,
the exalted of the land languish.
5 The land lies defiled under its inhabitants;
because they have transgressed the teachings,
changed the law
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse is devouring the land,
and its inhabitants are punished for their guilt.
It is why those living there waste away,
and the people left are few.
7 The new wine fails, the vines wilt,
all the revelers sigh,
8 the happy sound of tambourines ceases,
the shouts of merrymakers are stilled,
the joy of the lyre ends.
9 They no longer sing as they drink their wine,
strong liquor tastes bitter to those drinking it.
10 The city of chaos is shattered,
every house closed up; no one can enter.
11 In the streets they are crying over the wine;
all joy has faded, cheer has left the land.
12 In the city, only desolation,
its gates are battered beyond repair.
13 Around the earth, among the peoples,
it will be as when beating an olive tree,
as when gleaning the grapes at the end of the harvest.
14 They lift their voices, singing for joy,
shouting from the west to honor Adonai.
15 So in the east, honor Adonai;
in the coastlands, honor the name of Adonai,
the God of Isra’el.
16 From the farthest part of the earth
we have heard them sing,“Glory to the Righteous One!”
But, I say, I’m wasting away,
I am wasting away!
Woe to me! Traitors betray!
Oh, how the traitors betray and betray!
17 Terror, pit and trap are upon you,
you who are living on earth.
18 He who flees at the sound of terror
will fall into the pit.
He who climbs up out of the pit
will be caught in the trap.
For the windows above have been opened,
and the earth’s foundations shake.
19 The earth cracks and breaks open,
the earth crumbles to pieces,
the earth trembles and totters.
20 The earth staggers to and fro like a drunk,
sways back and forth like a watchman’s shelter;
its transgression weighs heavy upon it;
it will fall and not rise again.
21 When that day comes, Adonai will punish
the armies of the high heaven on high,
and the kings of the earth here on earth.
22 They will be assembled like prisoners in a dungeon
and shut up in prison to be punished many years.
23 Then the moon will be confused and the sun ashamed,
for Adonai-Tzva’ot will rule on Mount Tziyon
and in Yerushalayim,
with his glory manifest to the rulers of his people.
CJB


Please take the time to check out what you are quoting and ESPECIALLY what you are believing based on those quotes!
Agreed.
Floyd.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Jun2u.

Jun2u said:
Retrobyter

Word studies are a help but it is not the Gospel. It does not take for anyone to be a “rocket scientist” to know that Jesus is the “Christ” and that there are others who are “pseudo-Christ” or “anti-Christ” or a “fake-Christ.” And, it is false to say, one must know what and who is a "messiah" before one can intelligently say what an "antichrist" is.


And in English it is called the “Law of Moses and the Prophets.” Thank you for the addition above which I’ve neglected to mention in my last post


WOW, I didn’t know the “kingship” of Jesus was in question. I thought the OP was about the person of the antiChrist and since I’m not familiar with the statement then I must be an “antichristos.” Wow, this is really heavy! I’m sorry, but John did not understand it like you have understood it.

From Ol’ Jack

Thank you for your work and sharing!

My view of the "Antichrist" is more in line with IIThess.2:4, ie, along with others that feel the same thus nothing new, however has more to do with this "Antichrist" revealing himself as the "Antichrist" by this pagan act of seating himself in the true God's own"Sanctuary," not "Temple" in our renditions - Today! Not projecting this off to some future time.

Old Thess. Jack


from Jun2u

A word of encouragement!
Lu 10:21

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Old Jack
You are more spiritual than most, if not all, who posts in here. They are not aware the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be spiritually discerned. Keep up the good work for this is pleasing to God.

This thread has got to be a trick OP! Firstly, the author of the OP asks a question. Secondly, unbeknown to him he answered his own question with a key verse hidden in the four scripture texts he presented. Thirdly, that tells me he has no idea who the anti-Christ is!

It should have taken only one scripture text to expose the real anti-Christ. I’m still waiting for the other posters here to see if they caught that particular verse and nothing nada. I’m truly disappointed. I will assume therefore; that they too don’t know the character of the true identity of the anti-Christ for I believe this is due to their trusting for answers “out there” (in the world) instead of in the Bible.


The scripture in question is 1Jo 4:3 and it reads:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Please note that I purposely omitted the italicized word “spirit.” The translators put it there to “enhance” or make the passage “clearer” but it was not in the original manuscripts. I don’t think it would have mattered much anyway even if it was omitted or not. Lust look at the language on how John wrote the passage. He is saying that the antichrist was already living in his time as he penned 1 John and yet is still to come. There is no human who lived back then in John’s time for almost two thousand years and is still to come, impossible!!! The one who fits the bill to a tee as the antiChrist is none other than >>>SATAN. He it is, is “THE ANTICHRIST.” The world is looking for him in the form of a man and I’m afraid they will have a very, very long wait. SATAN, PLEASE STAND UP!!!

To God Be The Glory
First of all, word studies may not be "gospel," as you call it, but neither is the pseudo-theology of suggesting that allegorical interpretation is the correct way to interpret Scripture, ESPECIALLY when it comes to prophetic Scripture!

Second, look, people like Aharown (Aaron), Sha`uwl (Saul), and David (actually pronounced "Dah-VEED") were not "fake-Christs" or "pseudo-Christs" or "anti-Christs!" They were REAL "christs!" They were REAL "messiahs!" There is NOT "one Christ!" That's a lie that comes from the superstition of modern Christianity! There were MULTIPLE "christs" down through time! HOWEVER, there are also many who are against the teachings about the Messiah whom Yochanan (John) called "antichristoi," or "antichrists."

Furthermore, this term "antichrist" is NOT the same as the "man of lawlessness"/"man of sin" of 2 Thessalonians or the "beast" of Revelation! KEEP THE TWO SETS OF TERMS SEPARATE! They are NOT identical! The term "Antichrist" as it is used today is a MISNOMER! It's misapplying the term from John's letters to the concept of the beast in Revelation or the "man of sin/lawlessness" in 2 Thessalonians!

And, no. The "Torah" is NOT "the Law and the Prophets!" Those are two separate sections of the TaNaKH, or what Christians call the "Old Testament." The Law is one English word to describe the Torah, but the Prophets are the Navi'iym! It's simply a matter of translation:

TANAKH is an acronym. (Remember, vowels do not exist in the Hebrew alef-bet or alphabet.)
T --> Torah = Instruction or "Law"
N --> Navi'iym = Prophets
K --> Ketuviym = Writings

Furthermore, no analogy is any good without the reality behind the analogy! Yes, God can reside in us through His Spirit and call us His "building," but there must also be the REALITY of the actual structure to fulfill prophecy! No analogy can do away with that necessity!

Finally, the Kingship of Yeshua` has NOT HAPPENED, YET! It won't occur UNTIL He returns and offers that kingship again! Pay close attention to Yeshua`s own parable:

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore,
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV


Ignore the inner parable for a moment and focus on the outer parable. (Usually, everybody is enamored by the inner parable to the exclusion of the outer.) Yeshua`, being this "certain nobleman," receives the Kingdom while He is away, but doesn't reign over these subjects UNTIL HE HAS RETURNED!
 

Floyd

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Retrobyter: Luke 19:

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The same is said in the parable of the sheep and goat judgement; (Matt.25:31-46) most people cannot countenance a ruthless Jesus; but, that will be the case when He returns in "great power and glory".

Floyd: [SIZE=13.5pt]Sheep and Goat Judgement[/SIZE]
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Floyd.

Floyd said:
...

The same is said in the parable of the sheep and goat judgement; (Matt.25:31-46) most people cannot countenance a ruthless Jesus; but, that will be the case when He returns in "great power and glory".

Floyd: [SIZE=13.5pt]Sheep and Goat Judgement[/SIZE]
Yes, but qualified somewhat. The "Sheep and Goat Judgment" is a LOCAL judgment against the NATIONS (not individuals) that come against Isra'el. It will be a WAR TRIBUNAL by the new King of Isra'el!
 

Floyd

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Floyd.


Yes, but qualified somewhat. The "Sheep and Goat Judgment" is a LOCAL judgment against the NATIONS (not individuals) that come against Isra'el. It will be a WAR TRIBUNAL by the new King of Isra'el!
Yes I agree Retrobyter; the "Bema" (2 Cor.5:10), is the individual Christian meeting with the Lord; for reward or otherwise.
Floyd.
 

shturt678

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jun2u.


First of all, word studies may not be "gospel," as you call it, but neither is the pseudo-theology of suggesting that allegorical interpretation is the correct way to interpret Scripture, ESPECIALLY when it comes to prophetic Scripture!

Second, look, people like Aharown (Aaron), Sha`uwl (Saul), and David (actually pronounced "Dah-VEED") were not "fake-Christs" or "pseudo-Christs" or "anti-Christs!" They were REAL "christs!" They were REAL "messiahs!" There is NOT "one Christ!" That's a lie that comes from the superstition of modern Christianity! There were MULTIPLE "christs" down through time! HOWEVER, there are also many who are against the teachings about the Messiah whom Yochanan (John) called "antichristoi," or "antichrists."

Furthermore, this term "antichrist" is NOT the same as the "man of lawlessness"/"man of sin" of 2 Thessalonians or the "beast" of Revelation! KEEP THE TWO SETS OF TERMS SEPARATE! They are NOT identical! The term "Antichrist" as it is used today is a MISNOMER! It's misapplying the term from John's letters to the concept of the beast in Revelation or the "man of sin/lawlessness" in 2 Thessalonians!

And, no. The "Torah" is NOT "the Law and the Prophets!" Those are two separate sections of the TaNaKH, or what Christians call the "Old Testament." The Law is one English word to describe the Torah, but the Prophets are the Navi'iym! It's simply a matter of translation:

TANAKH is an acronym. (Remember, vowels do not exist in the Hebrew alef-bet or alphabet.)
T --> Torah = Instruction or "Law"
N --> Navi'iym = Prophets
K --> Ketuviym = Writings

Furthermore, no analogy is any good without the reality behind the analogy! Yes, God can reside in us through His Spirit and call us His "building," but there must also be the REALITY of the actual structure to fulfill prophecy! No analogy can do away with that necessity!
Thank you for caring!



Finally, the Kingship of Yeshua` has NOT HAPPENED, YET! It won't occur UNTIL He returns and offers that kingship again! Pay close attention to Yeshua`s own parable:
Only a head's up: The "Kingodm of Christ" reigns now through the Word in Truth, ie, the Supreme concept in the N.T.

The following "Parable of the Pounds" (Lk.19:11-27) properly undressed means the "Word" is not intended for just private possession and individual enjoyment; it's a captial that is designated for doing spiritual business in the world.

The era between Christ's ascension and His Parousia is the great mission era - today!



Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore,
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV


Ignore the inner parable for a moment and focus on the outer parable. (Usually, everybody is enamored by the inner parable to the exclusion of the outer.) Yeshua`, being this "certain nobleman," receives the Kingdom while He is away, but doesn't reign over these subjects UNTIL HE HAS RETURNED!



Old Jack
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:
Only a head's up: The "Kingdom of Christ" reigns now through the Word in Truth, ie, the Supreme concept in the N.T.

The following "Parable of the Pounds" (Lk.19:11-27) properly undressed means the "Word" is not intended for just private possession and individual enjoyment; it's a captial that is designated for doing spiritual business in the world.

The era between Christ's ascension and His Parousia is the great mission era - today!
Old Jack
Sorry, but the "Kingdom of Christ" or the "Messiah's Kingdom" is NOT present in the "now" AT ALL! We can consider ourselves subjects for His Kingdom AHEAD OF TIME because we recognize that He WILL BE our King in the not-too-distant future, but IT IS NOT HERE, YET because HE IS NOT HERE, YET! Not "in Truth" or in any other way! When Yeshua` the Messiah returns He will return LITERALLY and BODILY, just as He left this earth!

Acts 1:6-11
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
NIV


(My only regret on this version's rendition of this event is the LAST WORDS used in what I quoted. Why would a version PURPOSELY AND WILLFULLY translate the Greek words "eis ton ouranon" as "into the sky" in verses 10 and 11a, but as "into heaven" in 11b and 11c? They are EXACTLY THE SAME THREE WORDS IN ALL FOUR LOCATIONS!)

In my vocabulary, "properly undressing" a parable is "TWISTING" a parable to mean something that it was NOT originally intended to mean! Its meaning is twisted by all the double-talk that is spewed out of the mouths of well-meaning-but-deceived Christians. This "into the sky" in one place and "into heaven" in another place is what I refer to by "double-talk!" What gives US the right to say it one way in one part of a verse and a different way in another part of the SAME VERSE? The Greek speakers who read or heard these four locations KNEW that they were the SAME THREE WORDS in all four locations! SHOW ME where He is reigning right now from the Scriptures, not from one's theology! You can't do it because it can't be done!
 

Floyd

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.


Sorry, but the "Kingdom of Christ" or the "Messiah's Kingdom" is NOT present in the "now" AT ALL! We can consider ourselves subjects for His Kingdom AHEAD OF TIME because we recognize that He WILL BE our King in the not-too-distant future, but IT IS NOT HERE, YET because HE IS NOT HERE, YET! Not "in Truth" or in any other way! When Yeshua` the Messiah returns He will return LITERALLY and BODILY, just as He left this earth!

Acts 1:6-11
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
NIV


(My only regret on this version's rendition of this event is the LAST WORDS used in what I quoted. Why would a version PURPOSELY AND WILLFULLY translate the Greek words "eis ton ouranon" as "into the sky" in verses 10 and 11a, but as "into heaven" in 11b and 11c? They are EXACTLY THE SAME THREE WORDS IN ALL FOUR LOCATIONS!)

In my vocabulary, "properly undressing" a parable is "TWISTING" a parable to mean something that it was NOT originally intended to mean! Its meaning is twisted by all the double-talk that is spewed out of the mouths of well-meaning-but-deceived Christians. This "into the sky" in one place and "into heaven" in another place is what I refer to by "double-talk!" What gives US the right to say it one way in one part of a verse and a different way in another part of the SAME VERSE? The Greek speakers who read or heard these four locations KNEW that they were the SAME THREE WORDS in all four locations! SHOW ME where He is reigning right now from the Scriptures, not from one's theology! You can't do it because it can't be done!
Jack; Retrobyter is bang on correct!
This is what I meant when I said "I think you are sincere"; as you clearly love the Lord!
Many people I have met think as you do, because they have been indoctrinated from the pulpit by false or unlearned shepherds.
What you can count on even if you won't accept what Scripture says on this subject; is that you are "sealed" in heaven, until the "completion"; which takes place when Jesus returns physically to earth; or when we are resurrected at that time.
Regards, Floyd. Rapture (The) Those Taken and Those Not.
 

shturt678

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.


Sorry, but the "Kingdom of Christ" or the "Messiah's Kingdom" is NOT present in the "now" AT ALL! We can consider ourselves subjects for His Kingdom AHEAD OF TIME because we recognize that He WILL BE our King in the not-too-distant future, but IT IS NOT HERE, YET because HE IS NOT HERE, YET! Not "in Truth" or in any other way! When Yeshua` the Messiah returns He will return LITERALLY and BODILY, just as He left this earth!
Thank you for your response and caring!

Let's try and get on the same page regarding the "Kingdom of God." This divine Kingdom goes back to the beginning and rules the world, and so shall rule the world until the forthcoming "1" consummation at the end of time. All that is in the world, even every hostile force, is sub-servient to the plans of God. The children and sons of God, as heirs of the Kingdom, in whom God's grace is displayed, constitutes the Kingdom in its spectic sense.

The Kingdom is in them. This Kingdom is divided by he Coming of Christ, the King, in the flesh to effect the redemption of grace by which this specific Kingdom is really established among men. Hence we have the Kingdom before Christ, looking toward His Coming, and the Kingdom after Christ, looking back to His Coming - the promise and the fulmillment to be followed by the consummation - - the Kingdom as it was in Israel, as it now is in the Christian Church, the Una-Sancta in all the world, and as it will be at the end forever without a future so called "Millennial."

With this understanding of the Kingdom, that where the King is and rules with His power and His grace there the Kingdom is to be found, we see what the Baptist means when he says, "the Kingdom has come near."




Acts 1:6-11

6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
NIV


(My only regret on this version's rendition of this event is the LAST WORDS used in what I quoted. Why would a version PURPOSELY AND WILLFULLY translate the Greek words "eis ton ouranon" as "into the sky" in verses 10 and 11a, but as "into heaven" in 11b and 11c? They are EXACTLY THE SAME THREE WORDS IN ALL FOUR LOCATIONS!)

Acts 1:6, etc. The point of the question is the time, whether "at that time" Jesus is restoring the Kingdom of Israel. In His answer Jesus distinguishes "times" (longer stretches) from "seasons" (shorter ones, each marked in a certain way). So the apostles do not mean "right away" but "before so very long." The fact that the Kingdom of Israel is, indeed, to be restored to Israel is taken for granted. The scepter had, indeed, sadlly departed from Judah - - would it now be restored in Shiloh in Jesus? Lk.24:21: "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel."

No glorious earthly rule for Israel, the Jewish people, through Jesus, the Messiah. However, Israel (the REMNANT, Rom.9:27; 11:5) shall have the Kingdom restored.



In my vocabulary, "properly undressing" a parable is "TWISTING" a parable to mean something that it was NOT originally intended to mean! Its meaning is twisted by all the double-talk that is spewed out of the mouths of well-meaning-but-deceived Christians. This "into the sky" in one place and "into heaven" in another place is what I refer to by "double-talk!" What gives US the right to say it one way in one part of a verse and a different way in another part of the SAME VERSE? The Greek speakers who read or heard these four locations KNEW that they were the SAME THREE WORDS in all four locations! SHOW ME where He is reigning right now from the Scriptures, not from one's theology! You can't do it because it can't be done!
Old Jack, use to agape the 'double' cheeseburger at McDonalds way back, now enjoy a 'twisted' ice cream cone.



Floyd said:
Jack; Retrobyter is bang on correct!
This is what I meant when I said "I think you are sincere"; as you clearly love the Lord!
Many people I have met think as you do, because they have been indoctrinated from the pulpit by false or unlearned shepherds.
What you can count on even if you won't accept what Scripture says on this subject; is that you are "sealed" in heaven, until the "completion"; which takes place when Jesus returns physically to earth; or when we are resurrected at that time.
Regards, Floyd. Rapture (The) Those Taken and Those Not.
Thank you for your response and definitely caring!

Even our top paid upper exponential paygrades, Physicist are still working on the big 'bang' theory, ie, maybe they will or won't solve it, however regarding the "Rapture" theory, it's already been solved, ie, Jn.5:28, 29, "all in the tombs" come up at "1" time. Trying to be gentle with you, ie, no "Rapture."

Old gentle Jack
 

Floyd

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shturt678 said:
hat I meant when I said "I think you are sincere"; as you clearly love the Lord!
Many people I have met think as you do, because they have been indoctrinated from the pulpit by false or unlearned shepherds.
What you can count on even if you won't accept what Scripture says on this subject; is that you are "sealed" in heaven, until the "completion"; which takes place when Jesus returns physically to earth; or when we are resurrected at that time.
Regards, Floyd. Rapture (The) Those Taken and Those Not.
Thank you for your response and definitely caring!

Even our top paid upper exponential paygrades, Physicist are still working on the big 'bang' theory, ie, maybe they will or won't solve it, however regarding the "Rapture" theory, it's already been solved, ie, Jn.5:28, 29, "all in the tombs" come up at "1" time. Trying to be gentle with you, ie, no "Rapture."

Old gentle Jack

Don't understand your answers Jack!?
Floyd.
 

shturt678

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Floyd said:


Don't understand your answers Jack!?

Floyd.
I didn't even understand it? What I meant is the so called "rapture," and all the other stuff occurs with a one more physcial Return of Jesus where allllll in their graves rise one time to seat on the left side or the right, ie, we're toward the end of the reign of the Antichrist where Satan was personally bound at the Cross, and had to work through the Antichrist till today, ie, loosed personally soon (Rev.20:7).

Old Jack

btw the litmus test for the real "Antichrist" is hiding out, all one has to do is look within - not in some future temple building?
 

Floyd

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shturt678 said:
I didn't even understand it? What I meant is the so called "rapture," and all the other stuff occurs with a one more physcial Return of Jesus where allllll in their graves rise one time to seat on the left side or the right, ie, we're toward the end of the reign of the Antichrist where Satan was personally bound at the Cross, and had to work through the Antichrist till today, ie, loosed personally soon (Rev.20:7).

Old Jack

btw the litmus test for the real "Antichrist" is hiding out, all one has to do is look within - not in some future temple building?
As previously, not able to go with this Jack!
Floyd.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Jack.

First, you quoted me saying,

Shalom, Jack.


Sorry, but the "Kingdom of Christ" or the "Messiah's Kingdom" is NOT present in the "now" AT ALL! We can consider ourselves subjects for His Kingdom AHEAD OF TIME because we recognize that He WILL BE our King in the not-too-distant future, but IT IS NOT HERE, YET because HE IS NOT HERE, YET! Not "in Truth" or in any other way! When Yeshua` the Messiah returns He will return LITERALLY and BODILY, just as He left this earth!
And said,

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response and caring!

Let's try and get on the same page regarding the "Kingdom of God." This divine Kingdom goes back to the beginning and rules the world, and so shall rule the world until the forthcoming "1" consummation at the end of time. All that is in the world, even every hostile force, is sub-servient to the plans of God. The children and sons of God, as heirs of the Kingdom, in whom God's grace is displayed, constitutes the Kingdom in its spectic sense.What I meant when I said "I think you are sincere"; as you clearly love the Lord!
Many people I have met think as you do, because they have been indoctrinated from the pulpit by false or unlearned shepherds.
What you can count on even if you won't accept what Scripture says on this subject; is that you are "sealed" in heaven, until the "completion"; which takes place when Jesus returns physically to earth; or when we are resurrected at that time.

The Kingdom is in them. This Kingdom is divided by the Coming of Christ, the King, in the flesh to effect the redemption of grace by which this specific Kingdom is really established among men. Hence we have the Kingdom before Christ, looking toward His Coming, and the Kingdom after Christ, looking back to His Coming - the promise and the fulmillment to be followed by the consummation - - the Kingdom as it was in Israel, as it now is in the Christian Church, the Una-Sancta in all the world, and as it will be at the end forever without a future so called "Millennial."
With this understanding of the Kingdom, that where the King is and rules with His power and His grace there the Kingdom is to be found, we see what the Baptist means when he says, "the Kingdom has come near."
Do let's try! There is a major difference between the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Christ." God's Kingdom, the "divine Kingdom," as you call it, is NOT about control of the universe or even the world. His control over His Creation is absolute, but it is NOT His "Kingdom." His "Kingdom" (Hebrew: mamlaakhaah [OT:4457]) began with the children of Isra'el when they left the servitude of Egypt:

Exodus 19:1-6
1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
KJV


The word is ...

OT:4467 mamlaakhaah (mam-law-kaw'); from OT:4427; dominion, i.e. (abstractly) the estate (rule) or (concretely) the country (realm):
KJV - kingdom, king's, reign, royal.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word only occurs twice before this point in Scripture (Genesis 10:10; 20:9), and neither has to do with GOD'S Kingdom.

What you are teaching is a theological theory. What the Scriptures say is much different.

Now, the MESSIAH'S Kingdom is the instance of God's Kingdom when the Messiah Yeshua` is His Representative as that Kingdom's King, just as His relatives - David, Shlomoh (Solomon), et al. - were messiahs (anointed ones) as His representatives as that Kingdom's kings. THE Messiah being the Anointed One of PROPHECY as the ULTIMATE King of God's Kingdom. We are told in Scripture that He will reign 1,000 years while HaSatan (The Enemy) is chained up in the Abussos - LITERALLY! (Revelation 20:1-7.) We are also told that He must reign until all of His enemies are under His feet, and the LAST enemy that is subdued is death itself! THEN, He hands over His Kingdom to God, His Father, and becomes subject to Him. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28.) We are also told that He will reign forever from His father David's throne. (Luke 1:30-33.) This is important! Perhaps, we should review what Gavri'el told Miryam that day:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV


That is NOT as "King of Kings" or "World Emperor" as He will be during the 1,000 years. He will then reign from "the throne of His father David" and "over the house of Ya`aqov forever." And, "of His Kingdom there shall be no end." These are all SPECIFIC and LITERAL descriptions of His ETERNAL reign.

THAT'S the difference between these Kingdoms.

(To be continued...)
 

Floyd

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.

First, you quoted me saying,


And said,


Do let's try! There is a major difference between the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Christ." God's Kingdom, the "divine Kingdom," as you call it, is NOT about control of the universe or even the world. His control over His Creation is absolute, but it is NOT His "Kingdom." His "Kingdom" (Hebrew: mamlaakhaah [OT:4457]) began with the children of Isra'el when they left the servitude of Egypt:

Exodus 19:1-6
1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
KJV


The word is ...

OT:4467 mamlaakhaah (mam-law-kaw'); from OT:4427; dominion, i.e. (abstractly) the estate (rule) or (concretely) the country (realm):
KJV - kingdom, king's, reign, royal.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word only occurs twice before this point in Scripture (Genesis 10:10; 20:9), and neither has to do with GOD'S Kingdom.

What you are teaching is a theological theory. What the Scriptures say is much different.

Now, the MESSIAH'S Kingdom is the instance of God's Kingdom when the Messiah Yeshua` is His Representative as that Kingdom's King, just as His relatives - David, Shlomoh (Solomon), et al. - were messiahs (anointed ones) as His representatives as that Kingdom's kings. THE Messiah being the Anointed One of PROPHECY as the ULTIMATE King of God's Kingdom. We are told in Scripture that He will reign 1,000 years while HaSatan (The Enemy) is chained up in the Abussos - LITERALLY! (Revelation 20:1-7.) We are also told that He must reign until all of His enemies are under His feet, and the LAST enemy that is subdued is death itself! THEN, He hands over His Kingdom to God, His Father, and becomes subject to Him. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28.) We are also told that He will reign forever from His father David's throne. (Luke 1:30-33.) This is important! Perhaps, we should review what Gavri'el told Miryam that day:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV


That is NOT as "King of Kings" or "World Emperor" as He will be during the 1,000 years. He will then reign from "the throne of His father David" and "over the house of Ya`aqov forever." And, "of His Kingdom there shall be no end." These are all SPECIFIC and LITERAL descriptions of His ETERNAL reign.

THAT'S the difference between these Kingdoms.

(To be continued...)
Good to see your clear description Retro!
Floyd.
 

shturt678

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Floyd said:
As previously, not able to go with this Jack!
Floyd.
Thank you again for your response!

If we could remove Jn.5:28, 29 & 6:39 only for starters, I also could believe in more than only "1" bodily resurrection which results in the "hypergrace" of today, or at least a major part of it, projecting the forever warnings regarding one's losing one's "faith" out of touch from us today.

Old Jack's opinion

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.

First, you quoted me saying,


And said,


Do let's try! There is a major difference between the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Christ." God's Kingdom, the "divine Kingdom," as you call it, is NOT about control of the universe or even the world. His control over His Creation is absolute, but it is NOT His "Kingdom." His "Kingdom" (Hebrew: mamlaakhaah [OT:4457]) began with the children of Isra'el when they left the servitude of Egypt:

Exodus 19:1-6
1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
KJV


The word is ...

OT:4467 mamlaakhaah (mam-law-kaw'); from OT:4427; dominion, i.e. (abstractly) the estate (rule) or (concretely) the country (realm):
KJV - kingdom, king's, reign, royal.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word only occurs twice before this point in Scripture (Genesis 10:10; 20:9), and neither has to do with GOD'S Kingdom.

What you are teaching is a theological theory. What the Scriptures say is much different.
[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Thank you for your response![/SIZE]

Exod.19:6, "kingdom of priests," ie, Israel was to be a regel body of priests to YHWH, ie, not as a theocracy. The theocracy established by the conclusion of the covenant (Exod.24) was only the means adopted by YHWH for making His chosen people of royal body of priests.

segullah signified both kingship, as the embodiment of royal supremacy, exaltation, and dignity, and the kingdom, or the union of both king and subjects, ie, the land and nation together with its king.



Now, the MESSIAH'S Kingdom is the instance of God's Kingdom when the Messiah Yeshua` is His Representative as that Kingdom's King, just as His relatives - David, Shlomoh (Solomon), et al. - were messiahs (anointed ones) as His representatives as that Kingdom's kings. THE Messiah being the Anointed One of PROPHECY as the ULTIMATE King of God's Kingdom. We are told in Scripture that He will reign 1,000 years while HaSatan (The Enemy) is chained up in the Abussos - LITERALLY! (Revelation 20:1-7.) We are also told that He must reign until all of His enemies are under His feet, and the LAST enemy that is subdued is death itself! THEN, He hands over His Kingdom to God, His Father, and becomes subject to Him. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28.) We are also told that He will reign forever from His father David's throne. (Luke 1:30-33.) This is important! Perhaps, we should review what Gavri'el told Miryam that day:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
Matt.3:2, "for the Kingdom of the heavens has come near." Kingdom of God = Kingdom of the heavens. The "Kingdom" denotes the rule of Christ and His Word and Sacrament, ie, all three Persons rule now and forever because of the oneness of their being; however technically Christ rules now, the Father eventually - a mystery?



That is NOT as "King of Kings" or "World Emperor" as He will be during the 1,000 years. He will then reign from "the throne of His father David" and "over the house of Ya`aqov forever." And, "of His Kingdom there shall be no end." These are all SPECIFIC and LITERAL descriptions of His ETERNAL reign.

THAT'S the difference between these Kingdoms.

(To be continued...)
Old Jack, ie, we're nearing the end of the 1,000 years.

btw Satan is personally about to be loosed where the Antichrist will take the backseat to the Satan (Rev.20:7).
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
30
28
btw Satan is personally about to be loosed where the Antichrist will take the backseat to the Satan (Rev.20:7).
Old Jack.


No Jack, you are way off the Truth of Scripture!
I think now it's time to call a halt, as far as I am concerned; as what has been given to you has not impacted!
Once more:

The "Age" of the Gentiles is not yet over.
When it is, the "Day of Jehovah" will start.
The 5th kingdom of Dan.2 will be evident, with Satan controlling.
The "Tribulation" the Great one, will commence when the Anti-Christ breaks his covenant with Israel.
Israel will experience the "latter days" Jacob's Trouble, for 3.5 years. Jacob's Trouble
Partly simultaneously "God's wrath" will be visited on the Gentile nations; for their bad treatment of the Jews over 2 millennia , and for their rejection of the offer of Christ's Salvation.
Christ will return to rescue remnant Israel; which will be the nucleus of the future "Jeshurun".
Satan will be bound for the first time, for one thousand years.
During the Millennial Reign of Christ/God, the "curse" of Eden is still in place, people will still sin, but be dealt with swiftly directly by Christ!
At the end of Millennial, Satan will be released again by God to "again deceive the nations"; just prior to his and his people being destroyed.

This the last post from me to you on this and related subjects Jack.

Bon-voyage.

Floyd.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
The following events take place prior to the 1000 year millenium.

  1. Devastating earthquake and hailstorm (Revelation 16:18-21 Revelation 6:14-17).
  2. Second coming of Jesus for His saints (Matthew 24:30, 31).
  3. Righteous dead raised to life (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
  4. Righteous given immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).
  5. Righteous given bodies like Jesus (1 John 3:2 Philippians 3:21).
  6. All righteous caught up into the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
  7. Living wicked slain by the breath of the Lord's mouth (Isaiah 11:4).
  8. Wicked in graves remain dead until the end of the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5).
  9. Jesus takes righteous to heaven (John 13:33, 36 14:1-3).
  10. Satan bound (Revelation 20:1-3).

The following events take place during the millenium.

  1. Earth in battered condition from huge hailstones and devastating earthquake (Revelation 16:18-21 6:14-17).
  2. Earth in total blackout/bottomless pit (Jeremiah 4:23, 28).
  3. Satan and his angels forced to stay on the earth/bound (Revelation 20:1-3).
  4. Righteous in heaven participating in the judgment (Revelation 20:4).
  5. Wicked are all dead (Jeremiah 4:25 Isaiah 11:4).
The following events take place at the close of the millenium.

  1. Third coming of Jesus with His saints (Zechariah 14:5).
  2. Holy city settles on mount of Olives, which becomes a great plain (Zechariah 14:4, 10).
  3. The Father, angels, and all of the righteous come with Jesus (Revelation 21:1-3 Matthew 25:31 Zechariah 14:5).
  4. Wicked dead raised Satan loosed (Revelation 20:5, 7).
  5. Satan deceives entire world (Revelation 20:8).
  6. Wicked surround the holy city (Revelation 20:9).
  7. Wicked destroyed by fire (Revelation 20:9).
  8. New heavens and earth created (Isaiah 65:17 2 Peter 3:13 Revelation 21:1).
  9. God's people enjoy eternity with Christ on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).