Women Speaking and Ministering in Church

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robert derrick

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Should women speak in church?

No. Hand signals only.

Coughing is ok, because it's not speech. Neither is sneezing, though not polite. But saying God bless you for sneezing? No.

And no crying fire either, just point and run. Or just run.

And if a woman does actually dare to speak in a sacred church building, then any man, woman, or child can freely shoosh her.

"Hey, mommy, remember, you can't talk in the church building. So, if you do, I get to shoosh you." "That's right, Johnny, but you won't get the chance, because I'm a good little Christian woman. Just ask daddy." "Yes, son, she is a good little girl, like your sister Suzy, but if anyone's going to shoosh mommy, it will be me. Or another man that is at least a deacon."

Not only does the letter kill, when ministered without the Spirit, it also kills any common sense of intelligence.

The first rule of teaching truly the doctrine of Christ, is that it isn't patently stupid, so that even a child would laugh at it.
 
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Wrangler

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Not only does the letter kill, when ministered without the Spirit, it also kills any common sense of intelligence.

The first rule of teaching truly the doctrine of Christ, is that it isn't patently stupid, so that even a child would laugh at it.

Well said! It's my understanding that the very fact that women were allowed in church was revolutionary.

One pastor suggested this prohibition was a cultural reaction to woman not knowing how to act at that time because they were never allowed in the temple.
 

RedFan

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It makes no sense that God would care one whit about the gonads of His ministers. But logic is never invoked as a basis to deny ordination to women. Rather, the arguments against women serving as clergy are always premised on Scripture and Tradition. The appeal to Scripture is primarily centered on Paul’s letters, especially 1 Cor. 14:34-35:

“the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.”

For several reasons, I’m not buying it. I think it far more logical to conclude that this comment is a culturally sensitive anachronism and not a timeless directive.

First, note that Paul is not purporting to speak from divine revelation on this point―and this is a guy who isn’t shy about declaring that his teachings come from the word of the Lord when that is so (as in 1 Cor. 7:10 and 1 Thess. 4:15). Rather, he cites “the Law” as his authority. (Yup, the same “Law” that he elsewhere says we are not under, see Rom. 6:14, Gal. 5:18.) What Old Testament directive supports him? I can find none aside from Gen. 3:16: “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” But there is nothing here about women keeping silent. Indeed, rather than a general statement about the relative position between men and women, this verse is about the special relation between husband and wife. If this is the “Law” that Paul meant to invoke, his words would only apply to married women. A female minister whose husband was not in the congregation can’t possibly run afoul of this “Law.”

Second is his use of “shameful” (αἰσχρὸνto) to describe the practice of women speaking in church. Shame is a human reaction to violating the mores of the times. 1 Cor. 11:16 uses the same word αἰσχρὸνto to describe a woman praying with her head uncovered.

Then there is 1 Tim. 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” Since he doesn’t purport to transmit a teaching received from divine revelation here either, why should we care about what one Paul of Tarsus does or doesn’t permit? Paul is fallible, as any man is fallible. (Acts 10:34 relates Peter’s “Aha” moment of realizing that God shows no partiality. If Peter’s views could be in error, why not Paul’s? What makes him immune from error?)

Lastly, it is worth noting that Paul hasn’t been entirely consistent; he dispatched Phoebe, a deaconess from Cenchreae just a few miles from Corinth, to preach in Rome. (Rom. 16:1 uses the word διάκονον to describe her position.)

Turning now from Scripture to Tradition, the appeal to nearly 2,000 years of having exclusively male ministers ignores that that tradition is coextensive with 2,000 of cultural subordination of women. Is this “co-incidence” accidental, or is it causal? If the latter, then every Christian thinker from Paul forward has extrapolated culture into his theology. (It grieves me to have to use the pronoun “his” here―but culturally, women weren’t allowed to be scholars until recently.)

Those who say “it’s accidental” need to rethink their stance. Our traditions on this are not from God, but from man. (There’s that gendered word again! Ever wonder why “mankind” is shorthand for all of humanity while “womankind” is shorthand for only half of humanity?) The disparity in gender roles is so ingrained in our culture that we take it for granted in everything we do and think. It cannot help but color our views on everything, religion included, if we don’t pay attention.

Male and female role playing is largely a byproduct of child-bearing and physical strength, and male-dominated societies arose initially through division of labor translating into division of power. And the party in power tends to stay in power. Men have made women submissive since they lived in caves. Well, isn’t it time to come out into the light?
 

Davy

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Many just don't continue reading all of what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14...

1 Cor 14:34-38
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?


37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
KJV


After Paul says that women are to keep silent in Church, he then asks the men, "What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?", meaning to you men only?

Recall the prophetess Anna in The New Testament who prophesied of Jesus, and taught about Him (Luke 2:36-38). The sister of Aaron in the Old Testament was a prophetess. And Deborah of the Book of Judges who was made judge of Israel, she was a prophetess. And Huldah of 2 Kings 22, she was a prophetess, and God spoke through her. In Acts 2, Apostle Peter quoted from Joel 2 about both men and handmaidens prophesying for the end of this world. Prophesying means to speak by utterance of The Holy Spirit a Message or a teaching (with words easy to understand of course).

So Apostle Paul was not against women in the Church sharing a Message by The Holy Spirit, nor against teaching.

What Apostle Paul was against though... was women lording it over a congregation.

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
KJV


That says to me, NO WOMEN PASTORS, because the pastor office is as overseer of the congregation, and that is taking authority over the man.

It doesn't mean women can't teach The Bible though. Many women are Sunday School teachers of little children, and nothing wrong with that. But as pastors and ministers, no. Evangelists, yes, because that is about preaching The Gospel, and every believer should be able to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
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RedFan

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This nonsense about women being "saved in childbeaing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" stumbles twice. First, it suggests that infertile women are disadvantaged when it comes to salvation. Second, it suggests that men who "continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" are disadvantaged compared to mothers when it comes to salvation. Neither proposition makes any sense.

The non sequitur that because Adam predated Eve, women must have been intended by God to be subordinate to men, or because Eve was deceived and Adam was not, men are somehow better suited to a relative position of authority, makes even less sense.

Paul dropped the ball here.
 

Davy

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This nonsense about women being "saved in childbeaing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" stumbles twice. First, it suggests that infertile women are disadvantaged when it comes to salvation. Second, it suggests that men who "continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" are disadvantaged compared to mothers when it comes to salvation. Neither proposition makes any sense.

The non sequitur that because Adam predated Eve, women must have been intended by God to be subordinate to men, or because Eve was deceived and Adam was not, men are somehow better suited to a relative position of authority, makes even less sense.

Paul dropped the ball here.

So do you follow the Women's Liberation Movement?
 

Robert Gwin

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Should women speak in church?

No. Hand signals only.

Coughing is ok, because it's not speech. Neither is sneezing, though not polite. But saying God bless you for sneezing? No.

And no crying fire either, just point and run. Or just run.

And if a woman does actually dare to speak in a sacred church building, then any man, woman, or child can freely shoosh her.

"Hey, mommy, remember, you can't talk in the church building. So, if you do, I'm get to shoosh you." "That's right, Johnny, but you won't get the chance, because I'm a good little Christian woman. Just ask daddy." "Yes, son, she is a good little girl, like your sister Suzy, but if anyone's going to shoosh mommy, it will be me. Or another man that is at least a deacon."

Not only does the letter kill, when ministered without the Spirit, it also kills any common sense of intelligence.

The first rule of teaching truly the doctrine of Christ, is that it isn't patently stupid, so that even a child would laugh at it.

The Bible says the women are a large army for Jehovah sir. Ps 68:11 Do they usurp the men's headship in the Christian congregation? No. However they are disciples and teachers of God's word, and while they never give talks, they are encouraged to make comments during studies. As far as the assignment of Christians, the women carry the largest load toward it's fulfillment today. When the holy spirit was poured out on the Christian congregation in the first century women were present, and there are still anointed women today. Acts 2
 

VictoryinJesus

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Should women speak in church?

No. Hand signals only.

Coughing is ok, because it's not speech. Neither is sneezing, though not polite. But saying God bless you for sneezing? No.

And no crying fire either, just point and run. Or just run.

And if a woman does actually dare to speak in a sacred church building, then any man, woman, or child can freely shoosh her.

"Hey, mommy, remember, you can't talk in the church building. So, if you do, I'm get to shoosh you." "That's right, Johnny, but you won't get the chance, because I'm a good little Christian woman. Just ask daddy." "Yes, son, she is a good little girl, like your sister Suzy, but if anyone's going to shoosh mommy, it will be me. Or another man that is at least a deacon."

Not only does the letter kill, when ministered without the Spirit, it also kills any common sense of intelligence.

The first rule of teaching truly the doctrine of Christ, is that it isn't patently stupid, so that even a child would laugh at it.

well thought out! At first, the first couple of lines …I’m thinking good grief o_O excellent inclusion of the letter kills
 
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theefaith

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Only a man can be a priest!
Cos only a man can be a father!

Is this anti-woman?

only a woman can be a mother!

is this anti-men? No

it is what it is!

Only a man can sow the good seed of the gospel of salvation and only a priest can offer the holy propitiatory sacrifice of Christ!
 

theefaith

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2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

who is the “man of God”?
 

bbyrd009

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It makes no sense that God would care one whit about the gonads of His ministers. But logic is never invoked as a basis to deny ordination to women. Rather, the arguments against women serving as clergy are always premised on Scripture and Tradition. The appeal to Scripture is primarily centered on Paul’s letters, especially 1 Cor. 14:34-35:

“the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.”

For several reasons, I’m not buying it. I think it far more logical to conclude that this comment is a culturally sensitive anachronism and not a timeless directive.

First, note that Paul is not purporting to speak from divine revelation on this point―and this is a guy who isn’t shy about declaring that his teachings come from the word of the Lord when that is so (as in 1 Cor. 7:10 and 1 Thess. 4:15). Rather, he cites “the Law” as his authority. (Yup, the same “Law” that he elsewhere says we are not under, see Rom. 6:14, Gal. 5:18.) What Old Testament directive supports him? I can find none aside from Gen. 3:16: “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” But there is nothing here about women keeping silent. Indeed, rather than a general statement about the relative position between men and women, this verse is about the special relation between husband and wife. If this is the “Law” that Paul meant to invoke, his words would only apply to married women. A female minister whose husband was not in the congregation can’t possibly run afoul of this “Law.”

Second is his use of “shameful” (αἰσχρὸνto) to describe the practice of women speaking in church. Shame is a human reaction to violating the mores of the times. 1 Cor. 11:16 uses the same word αἰσχρὸνto to describe a woman praying with her head uncovered.

Then there is 1 Tim. 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” Since he doesn’t purport to transmit a teaching received from divine revelation here either, why should we care about what one Paul of Tarsus does or doesn’t permit? Paul is fallible, as any man is fallible. (Acts 10:34 relates Peter’s “Aha” moment of realizing that God shows no partiality. If Peter’s views could be in error, why not Paul’s? What makes him immune from error?)

Lastly, it is worth noting that Paul hasn’t been entirely consistent; he dispatched Phoebe, a deaconess from Cenchreae just a few miles from Corinth, to preach in Rome. (Rom. 16:1 uses the word διάκονον to describe her position.)

Turning now from Scripture to Tradition, the appeal to nearly 2,000 years of having exclusively male ministers ignores that that tradition is coextensive with 2,000 of cultural subordination of women. Is this “co-incidence” accidental, or is it causal? If the latter, then every Christian thinker from Paul forward has extrapolated culture into his theology. (It grieves me to have to use the pronoun “his” here―but culturally, women weren’t allowed to be scholars until recently.)

Those who say “it’s accidental” need to rethink their stance. Our traditions on this are not from God, but from man. (There’s that gendered word again! Ever wonder why “mankind” is shorthand for all of humanity while “womankind” is shorthand for only half of humanity?) The disparity in gender roles is so ingrained in our culture that we take it for granted in everything we do and think. It cannot help but color our views on everything, religion included, if we don’t pay attention.

Male and female role playing is largely a byproduct of child-bearing and physical strength, and male-dominated societies arose initially through division of labor translating into division of power. And the party in power tends to stay in power. Men have made women submissive since they lived in caves. Well, isn’t it time to come out into the light?
compelling, ty

ntmy btw, im mark :)
This nonsense about women being "saved in childbeaing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" stumbles twice. First, it suggests that infertile women are disadvantaged when it comes to salvation. Second, it suggests that men who "continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" are disadvantaged compared to mothers when it comes to salvation. Neither proposition makes any sense.

The non sequitur that because Adam predated Eve, women must have been intended by God to be subordinate to men, or because Eve was deceived and Adam was not, men are somehow better suited to a relative position of authority, makes even less sense.

Paul dropped the ball here.
id say keep an open mind there, as Paul is hard to understand, and easily misinterpreted? I could fill the page right now, but suffice it to say that humans have always (with some exceptions) derived authority from power, and adam can beat eve’s butt :)
but of course there is a better way to perceive real authority…only we dont elect those types i guess
 
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bbyrd009

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Many just don't continue reading all of what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14...

1 Cor 14:34-38
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?


37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
KJV


After Paul says that women are to keep silent in Church, he then asks the men, "What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?", meaning to you men only?

Recall the prophetess Anna in The New Testament who prophesied of Jesus, and taught about Him (Luke 2:36-38). The sister of Aaron in the Old Testament was a prophetess. And Deborah of the Book of Judges who was made judge of Israel, she was a prophetess. And Huldah of 2 Kings 22, she was a prophetess, and God spoke through her. In Acts 2, Apostle Peter quoted from Joel 2 about both men and handmaidens prophesying for the end of this world. Prophesying means to speak by utterance of The Holy Spirit a Message or a teaching (with words easy to understand of course).

So Apostle Paul was not against women in the Church sharing a Message by The Holy Spirit, nor against teaching.

What Apostle Paul was against though... was women lording it over a congregation.

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
KJV


That says to me, NO WOMEN PASTORS, because the pastor office is as overseer of the congregation, and that is taking authority over the man.

It doesn't mean women can't teach The Bible though. Many women are Sunday School teachers of little children, and nothing wrong with that. But as pastors and ministers, no. Evangelists, yes, because that is about preaching The Gospel, and every believer should be able to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
maybe a little gnostic finish, but some great points imo. gave you a like anyway
 

Wynona

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Have no issues with women not being pastors. You don't have to be in a pulpit to be a force for the Kingdom. Women have been important in ministry from Christianity's beginning.
 

Pearl

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The non sequitur that because Adam predated Eve, women must have been intended by God to be subordinate to men, or because Eve was deceived and Adam was not, men are somehow better suited to a relative position of authority, makes even less sense.
Or - tongue in cheek - it could be that females are the pinnacle of creation because they came last.:cool:
 

dev553344

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In the churches I attended women can speak. Noting that they weren't allowed to speak in Jesus' time and were considered more like property of men. In the churches I attended women cannot be bishops or deacons though. That has not been permitted.