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WOULD YOU LIKE TO JOIN A NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH?

Discussion in 'The Church Forum' started by marksman, May 5, 2020.

  1. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    KJV Exodus 30:18-21
    18 Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein.
    19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:
    20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
    21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

    Between the sacrifice and the entering into the temple, we also, as priests into our God, need to be baptized.

    KJV 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
    1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    Israel, between the sacrifice and Sinai, were baptized.

    KJV Acts 2:38, 41
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    KJV Acts 22:16
    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
     
  2. Illuminator

    Illuminator Well-Known Member

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    Regarding baptism, nowhere in Scripture is water and spirit separated.

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Paul is talking about works of the law, not good works.
    [/QUOTE]No, it is a work of obedience.
    I have never seen anyone wash their hands with symbolic water. Jesus was quite clear on this point, He said "...born of WATER and the Spirit". If He meant "symbolic water", He would have said so. But He didn't.
    John 1:32 – when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted.
    Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

    John 3:3,5 – Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of real, wet physical water, and the work of the Spirit).

    Pitting "calling on the name of the lord" against water baptism is a false "either/or" dichotomy. It's "both/and", not "either/or.
    Mark 16:16 – Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

    Luke 23:43 – the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

    Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 – there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, “I have a baptism to be baptized with” referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).
    SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
    Repentance when we sin, yes. Water baptism is done only once.

    Protestants divide into five major camps concerning the central rite of initiation into the Christian faith:
    1.) Infant baptismal regeneration (e.g., Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox).
    2.) Adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Churches of Christ).
    3.) Symbolic-only infant baptism (e.g., Presbyterians).
    4.) Symbolic-only adult baptism (e.g., Baptists).
    5.) No baptism required at all (e.g., Quakers, Salvation Army).
    +1 new one: a waterless baptism.

    Since this debate hasn’t been able to be resolved, many simply deny that baptism is “central".

    Yet the Bible insists on the crucial nature of baptism:
    Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; …
    Titus 3:5 “He saved us … by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (cf. Jn 3:5)1 Peter 3:21 “Baptism, which corresponds to this [Noah’s ark], now saves you, …”The Apostle Paul referred to “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Eph 4:5). The Catholic, when studying the Bible, wants to know if his interpretations are in line with those of the Church and apostolic tradition. In this way, doctrinal unity can be maintained.

    It’s not that Scripture is so unclear and esoteric that it is an utter mystery and an undecipherable “code” that only Holy Mother Church can break, and that no individual can possibly understand. Rather, the Church is required to speak authoritatively as to what Holy Scripture teaches, just as it spoke authoritatively with regard to what books were to be included in Scripture. Holy Scripture remains inherently what it is: God’s inspired, infallible written revelation.

    Tradition in the Bible (particularly for St. Paul) is not an individualistic thing, kept by each person as an esoteric “secret,” as the gnostic heretics would have it. No, it is obviously a corporately held entity. It is held in common by the Church, as the collectivity of Christians. And as this deposit of faith was one unified teaching, there necessarily had to be one Church to preserve and promulgate it.
    The clarity of Scripture and the role of the Church -
     
  3. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    You just debunked and skipped Acts 2:38.

    In the process, you stole the saints' mail and snuck it to sinners.

    That is some crooked dealings.
     
  4. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    I debunked nothing of the sort. Had you read all that I wrote and not just the edited part you posted, I answered all of that already.




    No, it is a work of obedience. I have never seen anyone wash their hands with symbolic water. Jesus was quite clear on this point, He said "...born of WATER and the Spirit". If He meant "symbolic water", He would have said so. But He didn't.

    John 1:32 – when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted.
    Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

    John 3:3,5 – Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of real, wet physical water, and the work of the Spirit).

    Pitting "calling on the name of the lord" against water baptism is a false "either/or" dichotomy. It's "both/and", not "either/or.
    Mark 16:16 – Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

    Luke 23:43 – the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

    Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 – there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, “I have a baptism to be baptized with” referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).
    SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
    Repentance when we sin, yes. Water baptism is done only once.

    Protestants divide into five major camps concerning the central rite of initiation into the Christian faith:
    1.) Infant baptismal regeneration (e.g., Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox).
    2.) Adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Churches of Christ).
    3.) Symbolic-only infant baptism (e.g., Presbyterians).
    4.) Symbolic-only adult baptism (e.g., Baptists).
    5.) No baptism required at all (e.g., Quakers, Salvation Army).
    +1 new one: a waterless baptism.

    Since this debate hasn’t been able to be resolved, many simply deny that baptism is “central".

    Yet the Bible insists on the crucial nature of baptism:
    Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; …
    Titus 3:5 “He saved us … by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (cf. Jn 3:5)1 Peter 3:21 “Baptism, which corresponds to this [Noah’s ark], now saves you, …”The Apostle Paul referred to “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Eph 4:5). The Catholic, when studying the Bible, wants to know if his interpretations are in line with those of the Church and apostolic tradition. In this way, doctrinal unity can be maintained.

    It’s not that Scripture is so unclear and esoteric that it is an utter mystery and an undecipherable “code” that only Holy Mother Church can break, and that no individual can possibly understand. Rather, the Church is required to speak authoritatively as to what Holy Scripture teaches, just as it spoke authoritatively with regard to what books were to be included in Scripture. Holy Scripture remains inherently what it is: God’s inspired, infallible written revelation.

    Tradition in the Bible (particularly for St. Paul) is not an individualistic thing, kept by each person as an esoteric “secret,” as the gnostic heretics would have it. No, it is obviously a corporately held entity. It is held in common by the Church, as the collectivity of Christians. And as this deposit of faith was one unified teaching, there necessarily had to be one Church to preserve and promulgate it.
    The clarity of Scripture and the role of the Church - [/QUOTE]

    I stand by what I wrote. It was clear and concise and correct.
     
  5. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    I stand by what I wrote. It was clear and concise and correct.[/QUOTE]



    What you wrote is just the opposite of what Peter commanded per Acts 2:38.
     
  6. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    The high priest was commanded "wash at the laver that ye die not".

    Jesus was baptized to fulfill his part as our high priest(fulfill all righteousness).

    We must wash in baptismal water that we die not also.(Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16).
     
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