Would You Still...

[bbyrd009]

But I do believe in heaven, with its city, and a room there prepared for me, conditionally of course on my faithfulness.

tag for later

but this is Asgard (Valhalla) wadr, not the kingdom of heaven within you.
The "nest" prepared for you is found when you are walking to that next town, flat broke
and the city comes a little later i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

no one has ever ascended to heaven except He Who came down from it, the Son of Man

 

[bbyrd009]

But I do believe in heaven, with its city, and a room there prepared for me, conditionally of course on my faithfulness.

fwiw Valhalla/Norse mythology is useful to understand, as this is where we get the concept of "hell," which is not in Hades mythology at all; it descends from Anglo scribes who had no other analogy, and just naturally assumed a spiritual place called "heaven" was meant to (Hegelian dialectic) "offset" a real, physical place called Gehenna, and if they did not assume this (which many didn't) then the RCC killed them and got a new guy, who would translate it like the Wolves wanted. So then, winners and losers in a literal race, carried into eternity

 

[Triumph1300]

no one has ever ascended to heaven except He Who came down from it, the Son of Man

Lots of books lately about people who died, went to heaven and/or hell and came back to tell the story.

 

[bbyrd009]

Lots of books lately about people who died, went to heaven and/or hell and came back to tell the story.

liars all imo. Just like the Heaven is For Real kid

 

[bbyrd009]

Lots of books lately about people who died, went to heaven and/or hell and came back to tell the story.

you are supposed to die at baptism right, making the second death irrelevant to you

 

[Triumph1300]

you are supposed to die at baptism right, making the second death irrelevant to you

Me???

 

[Helen]

liars all imo. Just like the Heaven is For Real kid

True...but what about Paul, he went " in Spirit" ?
And Steven looked up into heaven ..obviously his spiritual eyes were opened right then, for him to see.

So we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater can we.? Can "I".

 

[brakelite]

@bbyrd009 the kingdom of heaven is indeed within us, through the importation of the word by the Spirit. But don't spiritualise everything in scripture. That is gnosticism, which in some ways was incorporated into Catholicism, who do not believe in literal resurrection, but some floating supernatural existence "out there" somewhere.
The apostles were not lying when they testified to seeing Jesus ascend into heaven, nor when they testified to seeing Elijah and Moses talking with Jesus on the mount. The book of revelation reveals the throne room of the Father, and His Son beside Him. The book of Hebrews describe Christ's ministry as our high priest there. The Bible also describes in great detail the destruction and death of everything on the planet when Jesus comes, the gathering of the harvest to be united forever with God, leaving the earth void of all life until the creation of the new heavens and the new earth. During that time the redeemed shall be in their temporary homes in the new Jerusalem, and at the end of the millennium will descend with the city onto the new earth.
The meek shall indeed finally inherit the earth. But the condition of the earth before it's recreation will be reduced first to that which it was before Genesis. Empty, lifeless, dark. Abyss.
When Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us, he wasn't kidding.

 

[bbyrd009]

Me???

if your chosen "faith" (actually a misnomer) is "Christian," then certainly, yes, you.

 

[bbyrd009]

So we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater can we.? Can "I".

lol. guess i'm not being understood when i say "who is we, who are they."
either

True...but what about Paul, he went " in Spirit" ?

ah, and what did he relay to us, about that experience? what was that about?
we has a sub-thread about it, the third person thing? You could search it thru my member name and writing "third" the other way if you like, wasn't too long ago, maybe a week

(and you maybe see how that is diff than me saying "we believe Paul literally went somewhere," wherein the "we" is not really identified, but assumed)

Anyway, i guess Paul is admitting that he does not know there, right? Could even be labelled the gist of the passage, or else the weirdest lead-in to explaining how one got a demon that i can imagine;
"i hate to brag, but i went to heaven myself, some kind of way, can't really explain how. Got myself a tormentor out of the deal"

So, imo the subject there is "dreams and visions" and "boasting," and Paul is working out a dilemna he is having regarding those, and not really attempting to relate a vision so much (which we can note that he does not do anyway right; aside from the mention no details are forthcoming there); but to explain how he got his "thorn."

And Steven looked up into heaven ..obviously his spiritual eyes were opened right then, for him to see.

pretty much says it all imo. Iow he could have looked down, or even closed his eyes, he was not using those eyes, right.

 

[bbyrd009]

So we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater can we.?

the issue there is that the baby is an abortion, as comparing the description of the "baby" with Scripture will reveal. And the clues are just overwhelming when Scripture is read as It was written, dialectically. Go look for a "return," and you find "return to Me, and I will return to you." Go look for "flying like birds" and you find Ezekiel 13, and "no one has ever gone up to heaven," just in case. Also the pov is one i can get in one single Sunday in most OG Christian "churches" right, by ppl who have all signed Contracts for Jesus. That are serving God too, believe it or not; providing a place where the truth will shine, by its absence. The counterfeit always comes first. Seekers do not abandon "church" bc they no longer seek God, but bc Scripture compels them to correct their definitions, and "babies" generated by seers and scribing just don't cut it any more. imo

So i would go and examine that baby, critically--the first to tell his side in court seems right--and reflect on who birthed it--not you, right, not me, we just gobbled it up, we did not make it up--and see that i am not denying that Heaven is for Real, not at all. Heaven is real, and you can go as soon as you die, Helen; at baptism.

 

[bbyrd009]

now we are all treading dangerously close to a bottomless cliff now, ok; free-fall.
In contrast our "baptisms" are social events now, we mostly even go celebrate after, right, go to Luby's or whatever, and then go right back to our old lives? And sure you might hear "buried" mumbled real quick while you are underwater, but that's about all the counselling you get on that, right. No free-fall, or even slight dislocation in that at all. none

But see, someone is going to read this and die today--whenever today is, doesn't matter--and they are...not going to have the same experience, not even close. All their "anchors" are going to disappear, and these are very comfortable and familiar things to most ppl. And walking down the road to some town you are not familiar with, flat broke and no spares, is not very comfortable, at first. You will experience more than one occasion of questioning your sanity, like everyone else is doing already.

and i guess there is no dipping the toe in here; you either get the social experience and go sit on the fence like everyone else, or you suck it up and die. There will be mourning, etc, in the moment anyway, in a real "water" baptism, and the literal water is strictly for the ritual, the kiddie pool, as we all know what "water" reps already. You will be changing Sources here, is what you're doing--well, the Source has not changed of course, but your definition of it will. When you are walking down the road broke, you will have no choice but to see that you are relying on God for...everything, your next breath even. Now take your purse and your suitcase; but don't do this imo until you are reluctant to come back, or you will just "return" the wrong direction prolly

and maybe it isn't obv yet, but when you baptism/die you are no longer gonna be even a little bit worried about getting that part of you that you currently consider "I" into some place called heaven after the second death. We do not yet know what we will become, and i for one certainly am not interested in limiting the experience to some crystal-ball-gazers vision of an endless party with Jesus in full armor

 

[bbyrd009]

The apostles were not lying when they testified to seeing Jesus ascend into heaven, nor when they testified to seeing Elijah and Moses talking with Jesus on the mount.

well, imo they are lying to the wise at least; the actual experience has been hidden from the wise, who read the same thing everyone else does, only differently, with the wrong eye. Because i can also promise you that they saw Him come down the same way they saw Him go up, bl, just like the angels promised them. i say "promise" here bc we are talking about angels for God, right, who cannot even lie.

The lie comes later, when some ordained someone helpfully interprets the v for us, right, and then the Big Lie happens when we go and teach that like we know something, not realizing we are standing on a roof shouting "I AM BLIND."

 

[bbyrd009]

The book of revelation reveals the throne room of the Father, and His Son beside Him.

tag for later

 

[bbyrd009]

The book of revelation reveals the throne room of the Father, and His Son beside Him. etc etc

not disagreeing with you, but i recommend leaving all that for now, and going back to square one and getting the baptism part right first. The Book of Rev also conceals all that too, right? And my premise here is that we rely on wolves who cannot even get death at baptism right to reveal Revelations to us. no offense meant to them. Being blind is not really a sin, i mean we don't punish children for not seeing what's really going on, but at the same time they obv cannot possibly hit a mark in that state, they are going to "miss the mark."

 

[bbyrd009]

When Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us, he wasn't kidding.

dang right, and we even get a pitcher of "three" witnesses in a certain place with Jesus, huh?

hey, somebody fixed pitchers!
you rock!

 

[bbyrd009]

True...but what about Paul, he went " in Spirit" ?
And Steven looked up into heaven ..obviously his spiritual eyes were opened right then, for him to see.

So we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater can we.? Can "I".

"we" is completely appropriate there, as you are not making deterministic statements that you cannot Quote nor prove any other kind of way. For instance it is only if i were to say "the truth is we all need to hold our breath until we die," then you might be curious as to who this "we" is, right.

And for all i care you can make deterministic statements that include yourself in a group of "we" all day long,
we are all going to the same place i the end, see, i just did it, and you are free to ask "who is this 'we'?" if you don't understand, as i did not. Of course i did, and the determination was just not true; it wasn't even Scriptural, which is why i asked "who is we," in case i did actually misunderstand; "we" could have been JWs, or Catholics, etc, in which case i would have no pertinent comments to make imo

a secondary reason is that any "we" suggests a "they," and Scripture even encourages this choosing to associate oneself with a group, when read logically; "we all love Jesus, we are all doing God's will, we are all saved and going to heaven when we die, bc we are all baptized, even though we do not have any idea what that really means.

Note the change there, that last one? What did i just do? Instead of including myself in a group that i desire and imagine being in, i include myself in with the wolves, bc truth be told i didn't know about this baptism deal any earlier than you guys lol

 

[amadeus]

the issue there is that the baby is an abortion, as comparing the description of the "baby" with Scripture will reveal. And the clues are just overwhelming when Scripture is read as It was written, dialectically. Go look for a "return," and you find "return to Me, and I will return to you." Go look for "flying like birds" and you find Ezekiel 13, and "no one has ever gone up to heaven," just in case. Also the pov is one i can get in one single Sunday in most OG Christian "churches" right, by ppl who have all signed Contracts for Jesus. That are serving God too, believe it or not; providing a place where the truth will shine, by its absence. The counterfeit always comes first. Seekers do not abandon "church" bc they no longer seek God, but bc Scripture compels them to correct their definitions, and "babies" generated by seers and scribing just don't cut it any more. imo

So i would go and examine that baby, critically--the first to tell his side in court seems right--and reflect on who birthed it--not you, right, not me, we just gobbled it up, we did not make it up--and see that i am not denying that Heaven is for Real, not at all. Heaven is real, and you can go as soon as you die, Helen; at baptism.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Where or what or even why is this heaven of which Jesus speaks? We may also ask where or what or even why hell is...

As for the aborted baby, consider what Jesus said here:

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:10-11

He said to go to the very bottom. And what should we carry with us?

"And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece." Luke 9:3

 

[Helen]

"we" is completely appropriate there, as you are not making deterministic statements that you cannot Quote nor prove any other kind of way. For instance it is only if i were to say "the truth is we all need to hold our breath until we die," then you might be curious as to who this "we" is, right.

And for all i care you can make deterministic statements that include yourself in a group of "we" all day long,
we are all going to the same place i the end, see, i just did it, and you are free to ask "who is this 'we'?" if you don't understand, as i did not. Of course i did, and the determination was just not true; it wasn't even Scriptural, which is why i asked "who is we," in case i did actually misunderstand; "we" could have been JWs, or Catholics, etc, in which case i would have no pertinent comments to make imo

a secondary reason is that any "we" suggests a "they," and Scripture even encourages this choosing to associate oneself with a group, when read logically; "we all love Jesus, we are all doing God's will, we are all saved and going to heaven when we die, bc we are all baptized, even though we do not have any idea what that really means.

Note the change there, that last one? What did i just do? Instead of including myself in a group that i desire and imagine being in, i include myself in with the wolves, bc truth be told i didn't know about this baptism deal any earlier than you guys lol

Excellent post. And well said. Now I understand why you 'jump on it'.

I can't say I will always remember when posting...it is just a bad habit that "WE" all do!