Theres a second death though.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense for God to call a second death what is really an eternal living. In torment.
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Theres a second death though.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense for God to call a second death what is really an eternal living. In torment.
It’s difficult. Because we have assumptions based on preaching we’ve heard. It’s hard to just chuck those assumptions.
It does make sense when you see that "death" means separation. The Second Death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. But physical death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. The Gospel is to be preached so that none will experience the Second Death.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Me either.....that is because eternal punishment is eternal death (Matthew 10:28).....souls are "destroyed in Gehenna" not tortured......why does God need to keep the wicked alive only to punish them forever? Makes no sense and paints him as some fiendish despot...which we know he is not. The very thought of that is repugnant to him.(Jeremiah 7:31)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
"For though we live as human beings, we do not wage war according to human standards, 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not human weapons, but are made powerful by God for tearing down strongholds. We tear down arguments 5 and every arrogant obstacle that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to make it obey Christ. "
It can only do this if we can see the obstacles.....God can help us to do this....
All right, I’ll try. What verses explain that death means separation but to go on living. I will look at them.
That’s my thinking too. And Adam and Eve were told they would die on the day they ate, except they didn’t. They lived longer than we do. And then “Adam, dead Adam, “had a son, born in his image.” Dead.
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i can only go by scripture where the worm dies not . with out using your own reasoning . find a scripture that says we completely burn up no suffering. some teach degrees of Hell in eternal punishment
yes they did spiritually and eventually physical . it cost them a son who killed his own brother .they was kicked out of the garden. there own son sent away . we get the end results a sin nature .
My hope rest in the Lord the God of my Salvation.
@stunnedbygrace not sure what you will get out of this but hope it blows your mind.
Love you sister thank you for taking time to talk with me as you have done.
Believe your right about the puzzle pieces
The second death? What is it?
“And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.””
Revelation 21:6-8 NKJV
Here is the verse mentioned where people have their “part” in the lake of fire.
The second death could be the dying to the self in realizing that they are in need of God.
The dying of the darkness inside of them if they are coming into their “part” in the lake of fire.
I believe they are outside of the gate, going inside of the gate causes the death of self and need to Christ the truth that God desires all to come to.
look… how similar.
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
Revelation 22:14-15 NKJV
Satan and his angels go into the lake of fire for ever, and people human beings, only have a part.
listen this is all conjecture but my hope is for God to get his desire.
Some people believe God won’t get his desire…
Read closely
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”
I Timothy 2:3-7 NKJV
One more verse my trust rest in the Lord by faith.
God promise is not slack
“Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
II Peter 3:1-9 NKJV
@stunnedbygrace not sure what you will get out of this but hope it blows your mind.
Love you sister thank you for taking time to talk with me as you have done.
Believe your right about the puzzle pieces
The second death? What is it?
“And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.””
Revelation 21:6-8 NKJV
Here is the verse mentioned where people have their “part” in the lake of fire.
The second death could be the dying to the self in realizing that they are in need of God.
The dying of the darkness inside of them if they are coming into their “part” in the lake of fire.
I believe they are outside of the gate, going inside of the gate causes the death of self and need to Christ the truth that God desires all to come to.
look… how similar.
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
Revelation 22:14-15 NKJV
Satan and his angels go into the lake of fire for ever, and people human beings, only have a part.
listen this is all conjecture but my hope is for God to get his desire.
Some people believe God won’t get his desire…
Read closely
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”
I Timothy 2:3-7 NKJV
One more verse my trust rest in the Lord by faith.
God promise is not slack
“Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
II Peter 3:1-9 NKJV
My desire is to love God and love others.
people may believe whatever they want when it comes to Bible but remember this
though I know myself am not good at the revelation
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.”
Revelation 1:1-3 NKJV
there is a blessing from it
Good night and you all take care you and your families,
With love in Christ,
Matthew G
people may believe whatever they want when it comes to Bible but remember this
though I know myself am not good at the revelation
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.”
Revelation 1:1-3 NKJV
there is a blessing from it
Good night and you all take care you and your families,
With love in Christ,
Matthew G
Kindly study the martyrdom of Stephen, the first Christian martyr (Acts 7 & 8). While his body was buried, his soul and spirit went directly to Christ.
And all the saints in Heaven are very much alive. Please note Hebrew 12:1: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...
What is Paul telling us here?
1. The saints in Heaven are very much alive and aware (and observant).
2. They are called "witnesses" since they are carefully observing events on earth as related to Christians.
3. "We are compassed about" means that they surround us (though invisible).
4. "So great a cloud of witnesses" speaks of the huge number of saints in Heaven.
5. Paul likens the Christian walk to an Olympic marathon -- a long distance race.
6. Paul says that we are to run with patience the race that is set before us since there are so many spectators watching us.
Aha…in the last days, it says, scoffers will come who will say, “where is the promise of His coming?”
Why would they be asking, where is the promise of His coming, unless…it was being preached by some that He was coming? So…should a man be preaching that He already came or should He be preaching that He is coming?
Yes, but we are not talking about the living. We are talking about the dead, who will be resurrected in the second resurrection, and then go to the second death.
It’s what I suspect from putting MANY scriptures together, from Genesis to Revelation, that man does not have eternal life in him until he is born of the Spirit.
So how would he live eternally if only Jesus is the eternal life?
I believe that the Lord led me on a journey through my bible and concordance that ended with the realization that some will perish, cease to exist, in the lake of fire. But time will tell. I wouldn't expect anyone to take my word for it.
I think we get confused because satan appears to be an eternal being. But we are never portrayed as being born eternal from what I’ve read. In fact, Adam and Eve were kept from the tree that COULD have made them live forever.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Good questions….Just the facts man!
Hell and Hades….are not mentioned in the Old Testament for a very good reason. If you have a Bible with these words in the Old Testament….buy another Bible
The word Hell does not appear in the Old or New Testament, because the word did not exist in any of the biblical periods. The word Hell is derived from a few sources, from Anglo-Saxon word hellia, derived from the Old English, Old Norse, Old High German, hel, helle, circa. 725 AD. That is several centuries after Christ and the Apostles.
Nothing like Hell is described in the Old Testament and then of course God never threatened the Hebrews/ Israelites / Jews with a spiritual destination of punishment. So the Jews in the Old Testament did not know of or believe in a Hell….and as it is, modern Jews still do not believe in a Hell or a devil today. Knowledge of a place of punishment does not come about until the knowledge of the devil comes about…that is in the New Testament.
Hades --- a Greek word --- cannot appear in the Old Testament because the Old Testament was written before the Greek language existed. So what is Hades? It is a little complex and I am sorry about that. The Apostles were tasked with writing the New Testament in Greek, mostly, and it was a Pagan language. The Greek language was developed by a culture that had a different view on morality and limited theological terms. So the Apostles had to take Greek words of close definitions and adjust them by the context of how they were used. Definitions on the fly! LOL
Hades was translated into more modern languages as Hell. But actually Hades is a Greco-Roman god….that presided over a realm called Hades that was not as much a place of torture but as an underworld prison. It was the closest Greek word the Apostles could come up with to represent a place of eternal punishment.
Gehenna the Aramaic name for a section of the Valley of Hinnom was a Roman trash dump that was kept on fire intentionally for sanitation purposes ….it was used as an analogy of Hell.
Shoal is a Hebrew/ Israelite / Jewish belief, but it is not well defined. For the most part they believe everyone goes there. For the Old Testament Jews Shoal was the final destination, since Yahweh did not promise them Heaven or threaten them with “Hell.” Christians more or less just dropped the belief in Shoal but there is no biblical reason to believe it no longer exists or is not a possible destination.
Heaven, as far as the Old Testament Jews, they believed that was where God was and they were not even sure if Angels were there. And certainly did not believe that it was a normal destination for people.
It’s about a 400 year period between the Testaments and suddenly we have a devil and Heaven and Hell and a Lake of Fire that where possible destinations for people. Now for anyone that is paying attention, they should be asking themselves….What happened!!! Well a lot happened, but Fundamentalism does not cover that. Generally what they do is try to Christianize the Old Testament to compensate for what they do not know.
But still since the Jews were looking for a human warlord messiah king…the advent of Satan may have made that impractical and it would take a God to straighten things out.
The Jewish Messiah was a savior in that he would free them from their oppressors…by force! The Jewish Messiah was not there to forgive them of sins or save them from Hell or discontinue sacrifices. If you look at the Jewish prophets they foretold that the Messianic kingdom would last forever and the Temple, the Mosaic Law, and sacrifices would continue forever.
So the question of were do we go after we die….bottom line we do not know. You can say the grave. Some speculate that is it Shoal. Some believe you go to Heaven or Hell before resurrection and Judgment Day….which would not make any sense. Paul refers to it as sleep, so where ever we go, we maybe unconscious.
Hell and Hades….are not mentioned in the Old Testament for a very good reason. If you have a Bible with these words in the Old Testament….buy another Bible
The word Hell does not appear in the Old or New Testament, because the word did not exist in any of the biblical periods. The word Hell is derived from a few sources, from Anglo-Saxon word hellia, derived from the Old English, Old Norse, Old High German, hel, helle, circa. 725 AD. That is several centuries after Christ and the Apostles.
Nothing like Hell is described in the Old Testament and then of course God never threatened the Hebrews/ Israelites / Jews with a spiritual destination of punishment. So the Jews in the Old Testament did not know of or believe in a Hell….and as it is, modern Jews still do not believe in a Hell or a devil today. Knowledge of a place of punishment does not come about until the knowledge of the devil comes about…that is in the New Testament.
Hades --- a Greek word --- cannot appear in the Old Testament because the Old Testament was written before the Greek language existed. So what is Hades? It is a little complex and I am sorry about that. The Apostles were tasked with writing the New Testament in Greek, mostly, and it was a Pagan language. The Greek language was developed by a culture that had a different view on morality and limited theological terms. So the Apostles had to take Greek words of close definitions and adjust them by the context of how they were used. Definitions on the fly! LOL
Hades was translated into more modern languages as Hell. But actually Hades is a Greco-Roman god….that presided over a realm called Hades that was not as much a place of torture but as an underworld prison. It was the closest Greek word the Apostles could come up with to represent a place of eternal punishment.
Gehenna the Aramaic name for a section of the Valley of Hinnom was a Roman trash dump that was kept on fire intentionally for sanitation purposes ….it was used as an analogy of Hell.
Shoal is a Hebrew/ Israelite / Jewish belief, but it is not well defined. For the most part they believe everyone goes there. For the Old Testament Jews Shoal was the final destination, since Yahweh did not promise them Heaven or threaten them with “Hell.” Christians more or less just dropped the belief in Shoal but there is no biblical reason to believe it no longer exists or is not a possible destination.
Heaven, as far as the Old Testament Jews, they believed that was where God was and they were not even sure if Angels were there. And certainly did not believe that it was a normal destination for people.
It’s about a 400 year period between the Testaments and suddenly we have a devil and Heaven and Hell and a Lake of Fire that where possible destinations for people. Now for anyone that is paying attention, they should be asking themselves….What happened!!! Well a lot happened, but Fundamentalism does not cover that. Generally what they do is try to Christianize the Old Testament to compensate for what they do not know.
But still since the Jews were looking for a human warlord messiah king…the advent of Satan may have made that impractical and it would take a God to straighten things out.
The Jewish Messiah was a savior in that he would free them from their oppressors…by force! The Jewish Messiah was not there to forgive them of sins or save them from Hell or discontinue sacrifices. If you look at the Jewish prophets they foretold that the Messianic kingdom would last forever and the Temple, the Mosaic Law, and sacrifices would continue forever.
So the question of were do we go after we die….bottom line we do not know. You can say the grave. Some speculate that is it Shoal. Some believe you go to Heaven or Hell before resurrection and Judgment Day….which would not make any sense. Paul refers to it as sleep, so where ever we go, we maybe unconscious.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is a clue in scripture about that too.....
2 Peter 3:8...
“Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day.” (NET)
Look in Genesis and see that not a single human lived to 1000 years old.....so at 930, Adam did die within that “day”.
Sadly it wasn’t my quote………and Matthew G wasn’t keen on starting a thread xx
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