I'm a non-Christian, where can I post?

[stunnedbygrace]

He does indeed command disciples to be water baptized.

"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19​

I know you know this scripture so I'm guessing you have concluded that he's not talking about water.
But we know he's talking about water because he's instructing his disciples to perform it. In contrast to the baptism of the Spirit which Christ himself performs (Matthew 3:11).

Well…why have you concluded it has to be water being spoken of?

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

As someone posted above:

"he kinda let the cat out of the bag when he stated he had no opinion as long as the man wasn't trying to have sex with him personally. It means he passes no judgment on things like adultery, polygamy or pedophilia"

mmm- hmmm
I think the cat got out of the bag, alright...

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

"Classic Christians, on the other hand, believe they remain who they are even after they are saved. They form a kind of partnership with Christ, yes; they make Christ their leader, yes, but they always retain who they are. They "never give their soul to Christ the way Veridicans do."

To me, that is condescension to non-Veridicans -- "They never give their soul to Christ the way Veridicans do"

 

[Enoch111]

Well…why have you concluded it has to be water being spoken of?

What else would it be? Since Christ Himself baptizes with the Holy Spirit, He commands His apostles and disciples to baptize with water. Did you notice in the Gospels that Christ never baptized with water? There was a good reason for that.

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. (John 4:1-3).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What else would it be? Since Christ Himself baptizes with the Holy Spirit, He commands His apostles and disciples to baptize with water. Did you notice in the Gospels that Christ never baptized with water? There was a good reason for that.

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. (John 4:1-3).

did you notice that people sometimes received the Holy Spirit when the apostles laid hands on them?

 

[Cassandra]

did you notice that people sometimes received the Holy Spirit when the apostles laid hands on them?

what are you getting at? just curious.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

what are you getting at? just curious.

Ferris seemed to assume a verse he quoted HAD to be talking about water, so I asked why he assumed that. Then Enoch also assumed it had to be water, so I pointed out that some people received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when apostles laid hands on them. When one man saw that, he even offered to give them money if they would lay hands on him. So…I was not so much getting at anything, was just wondering why they assumed it had to be water being spoken of.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Act 10:47

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

These guys got the ghost before water baptism - but did not neglect water baptism afterwards

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Act 19:2

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Usually, water baptism came first - then Holy Spirit baptism later - some people claim it can be simultaneous.

"...Jesus baptized not, but His disciples"

my Greek Professor said people had debated whether that meant Jesus only baptized His disciples, or that only the disciples did the baptism

He claimed only the disciples did the baptisms, as Jesus baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost. I forgot what it was in the Greek that made him see that

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Preachers on AM radio stations really early in the morning were known to sell water BOTTLED BY JOHN THE BAPTIST; and even sold an AUTOGRAPHED PICTURE OF JESUS - ONLY FIVE BUCKS!

It was an 8 by 10 b&w glossy of a Minor League outfielder named Jesus Rodriguez! Holding his bat, smilin' at the camera, man...

 

[Enoch111]

did you notice that people sometimes received the Holy Spirit when the apostles laid hands on them?

Yes, but who was the One who actually poured out the Spirit upon them? The answer is in Titus 3:4-7. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly [poured out upon us] through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So Jesus Christ our Saviour is the one who pours out the Holy Spirit upon every believer. After that believers are baptized in water (see Acts 10).

 

[Curtis]

Case in point, classic Christians maintain that the entire Holy Bible is the Word of God. Veridicans don’t. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and for that reason, we canonize only the books that deal with His life and teachings: The New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the book of Revelation, but also the non-biblical Gospel of Thomas, and the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. We consider the rest of the Bible to be good for historical context and wisdom, but nothing more than that. In Veridicanism, only the life and teachings of Jesus Christ are holy, so our canon is very much limited to that.

Looks like there’s another term for your belief system: Gnosticism, since you accept the gnostic gospel forgery called the gospel of Thomas.

I’ve read that gnostic book, and it reads like whoever wrote it was tripping on hallucinogenic drugs - it reads nothing like accepted biblical books, and is so obviously a non-inspired 3rd century forgery.

The other comment I have is that it’s amazing that Verdicans would reject the Old Testament as being authoritative - which is full of prophecy, and types and shadows of Jesus - especially since Jesus frequently quoted from the law and the prophets as being completely authoritative.

When Jesus said to search the scriptures, for they testify of Him, there was no New Testament, so Jesus said to study the Old Testament- and when He rose from the dead and opened their eyes to the scriptures that prophesied of Him, it was the Old Testament.

So it’s difficult to fathom how anyone can believe in Jesus, but not accept the very scriptures Jesus was always referring to.

On top of that the Old Testament is replete with christophanies - appearances of Jesus as Elohim in the flesh!

The first thing that comes to mind regarding believers supposedly becoming Jesus, is that we are clearly the bride of Christ, and married to Jesus as believers- and He didn’t marry Himself.

That said, I have no objection to your posting in the forum.

 

[Edward Gordon]

First, let me say that there are so many people responding to this thread that I can't just sit here and respond all day long. That said, I really want to, so I am scouring the thread for posts to respond to. Below are some I want to address before I go to bed, but I will address others. Also, and of course, I respond to e-mail first. So, if you really need something from me, please feel free to email me.

I’d like to hear about this when you have time.

Peter sets himself up as the authority of the movement of believers--which is why the Pope considers himself a direct descendant of Peter. However, Peter pronounces death on Annanias and Saphira over money. Jesus would have never done that. And if you look at the Last Supper in John, the way Peter is acting in Acts 5 is completely contrary to that. Added to that, Peter was a coward who denied Christ--they all were, actually. Peter was told to "feed" the sheep of Christ, and what we got was the Roman Catholic Church. I have no respect for the apostles who turned immediately to Judaism after the death of Jesus. Jesus died alone, except for his mother and brother and the thief who asked Him for mercy. By the time Jesus was crucified, all his so-called disciples had deserted him. So, I will not place their letters equal to the life and teachings of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. I won't do it. I won't follow them. I see where their road has led.

...but that's me.

He might not favor homosexuality, but he kinda let the cat out of the bag when he stated he had no opinion as long as the man wasn't trying to have sex with him personally. It means he passes no judgment on things like adultery, polygamy or pedophilia, and that each man is free to follow his own conscience in such matters, while nevertheless suggesting in other posts that he distances himself from Koresh's theology.

I would rather such versions of "Christianity" not even be discussed, but we are a free forum, and this is a consequence of that. Heretics like our friend here have a license to teach this sort of thing, which leaves us with no choice but to correct and warn him about it, whether he will listen or not.

a. I never said people were free to follow their conscience on pedophilia or adultery. I never said that. You have to lie to make a case against me. So, what does that say of your spirit? Hmmmm. But what do you care? And I am absolutely certain that you don't want my version of Christianity preached. Do you really think you're the first one I've ever encountered with a spirit like yours? No. You have always been with me since I started on the internet in 1994. You have always been there. Always. I'm used to you and your effect.

I heartily agree with this also.

Cool.

It’s okay. They can’t hear you. I’m going to read the rest of the thread and I might email you. Not to join you but to understand you I guess.

No, you don't need to join the Church. If you want to talk by e-mail, I look forward to it.

It bothers me that he is teaching heresy, and well lead people to Hell rather than to Heaven if he continues to.

You don't find that a problem?

a. It can't be heresy if I'm not part of your church. You do realize that, don't you?

b. And the truth is, the traditional church is and always has been the dog at the door or the barn. They don't become Christ, and they don't let anyone else become Christ. But, these are the end times, and there is no more time for that sort of thing.

A little late for that. Leaven of men. Almost impossible to remove unless the Lord Himself helps a man.

He does indeed command disciples to be water baptized.

"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19​

I know you know this scripture so I'm guessing you have concluded that he's not talking about water.
But we know he's talking about water because he's instructing his disciples to perform it. In contrast to the baptism of the Spirit which Christ himself performs (Matthew 3:11).

I don't think he's talking about water, or he would have said it. In fact, nowhere in the Gospels does he indicate His baptism for us is water. That was something John the Baptist was doing. And just use a little common sense: Someone loves Jesus. They try to conform their behavior to His. They consume his body and blood spiritually speaking. They support the true Church the best they can. They long to be with Christ and the Father after their death. They get to Judgement Day, and God is like, "I'm sorry, you didn't actually get dunked or sprinkled with water in either the Protestant or Roman Catholic Church, am I right on that?" Yeah, unfortunately you're not saved, so...to hell with you...literally."

I know the Father, and He's just not like that. I don't know how to put it...He's not that petty.

This is much more than doing away with a few miracles, I assure you.


Edward, after drawing you out, I have simply exposed your true spiritual condition, and am now warning you of what you can expect from the Lord if you continue on your present course.

Drawing me out? I'm as open as a book can be. To quote the great American serial killer, Aileen Wuornos "I'm good with the Lord!" I am however a bit worried about you. I don't think you're playing with a full deck. I think you need to just calm down and try to discuss things more objectively and less emotionally.

You call marrying some man's 12 year old daughter "loving your neighbor as yourself"? You describe stealing half a dozen wives from their husbands and having children through them as "loving your neighbor as yourself"? This is spiritual delusion in its highest form.

I never said that. Funny you should use the term "delusional."

There's really no need for you and I to go on, is there?

You will not listen to reason, nor to my warnings, so your course is set. The only thing I can do for you at this point is pray for you, unless of course you keep demanding responses from me.

Nope. No responses are necessary.

You'd be surprised.

I've seen all sorts of things taught on this forum that people I thought should know better actually took under strong consideration.

People are led in all kinds of directions by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes what seems like a bad path ends up being the wisdom they need to combat dark forces. I can tell you that is definitely the case with me. I was quite into the occult at one time, so I KNOW where that road leads. I've been to the end of it. Conversely, I KNOW the power of Christ. In other words, I've completely explored both ways, and I run to Christ. I'm ashamed of my past, but I was alone and the Church had completely failed me--utterly. I didn't know what I was doing. Now, I do. So, there are things people spend their life believing--but I don't believe them--I KNOW they are true. Do you want me to give you an argument for the existence of God no atheist can defeat? I can do that. Do you want me to tell you how demons behave and what they want and how they get it? I can tell you. Do you want me to show you how witchcraft works, why it works, and why it ultimately is not something you want in your life? I can tell you fully about it. And you know, Jesus spent 40 days with Satan, discussing things, overcoming temptation. He wasn't afraid of Satan, and nor am I. And Jesus wasn't cruel to the demons he cast out of people. He was merciful to them, and I know why, and I feel the same way toward them. I can tell you what heaven is like because I've been there. I can tell you what hell is like because I've been there.

So, what to make of all of it? Well, God didn't leave me abandoned. When I was lost, He came out and brought me home.

Got to go to bed!

 

[Curtis]

First off, I love that photo for your avatar. I think I know that movie by heart.

We believe the human purpose is to become Christ. We believe the human spirit is like a seed of Christ. Of course, even if we are Ferris Christ or Edward Christ, that doesn't mean we are Jesus Christ. And just because we are completely Christ, that doesn't mean Christ is just us. We become the substance of Christ.

Ironically, I'm working on a short explanation right now for a sermon video that explains the Veridican Eucharist ritual. It's transubstantiation, like the Catholics, but it differs in that we believe our individual faith turns the bread into the body of Christ and the wine into the blood of Christ, not a centralized priest. We have priests and deacons, but in the most important ritual moment, the Eucharist, we all become High Priests.

Except at the last supper/first communion. Jesus said to eat the bread and drink the wine, as a remembrance of Him, and it took place before He went to the cross and shed His blood and gave His flesh for us - plus He also drank the wine and ate the bread, further indicating the ritual being symbolic, since He wouldn’t drink His own blood and eat His own flesh.

It’s a solemn remembrance of His sacrifice of flesh and blood for our sins.

Not to mention that in the law of Moses from the Old Testament, God strictly forbade drinking the blood of the sacrifice - and animal sacrifice was symbolic of the coming sacrifice of Jesus for our sins - and in Acts 15, the apostles of Jesus started that the prohibition against drinking blood still applies today, and carried over from the law of Moses.

This means the wine of communion can’t possibly become the literal blood of Jesus- further confirming that communion is a symbolic ritual of remembrance, and not a vampiric blood drinking ceremony.

 

[Curtis]

First, let me say that there are so many people responding to this thread that I can't just sit here and respond all day long. That said, I really want to, so I am scouring the thread for posts to respond to. Below are some I want to address before I go to bed, but I will address others. Also, and of course, I respond to e-mail first. So, if you really need something from me, please feel free to email me.



Peter sets himself up as the authority of the movement of believers--which is why the Pope considers himself a direct descendant of Peter. However, Peter pronounces death on Annanias and Saphira over money. Jesus would have never done that. And if you look at the Last Supper in John, the way Peter is acting in Acts 5 is completely contrary to that. Added to that, Peter was a coward who denied Christ--they all were, actually. Peter was told to "feed" the sheep of Christ, and what we got was the Roman Catholic Church. I have no respect for the apostles who turned immediately to Judaism after the death of Jesus. Jesus died alone, except for his mother and brother and the thief who asked Him for mercy. By the time Jesus was crucified, all his so-called disciples had deserted him. So, I will not place their letters equal to the life and teachings of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. I won't do it. I won't follow them. I see where their road has led.

...but that's me.

a. I never said people were free to follow their conscience on pedophilia or adultery. I never said that. You have to lie to make a case against me. So, what does that say of your spirit? Hmmmm. But what do you care? And I am absolutely certain that you don't want my version of Christianity preached. Do you really think you're the first one I've ever encountered with a spirit like yours? No. You have always been with me since I started on the internet in 1994. You have always been there. Always. I'm used to you and your effect.



Cool.

No, you don't need to join the Church. If you want to talk by e-mail, I look forward to it.



a. It can't be heresy if I'm not part of your church. You do realize that, don't you?

b. And the truth is, the traditional church is and always has been the dog at the door or the barn. They don't become Christ, and they don't let anyone else become Christ. But, these are the end times, and there is no more time for that sort of thing.

I don't think he's talking about water, or he would have said it. In fact, nowhere in the Gospels does he indicate His baptism for us is water. That was something John the Baptist was doing. And just use a little common sense: Someone loves Jesus. They try to conform their behavior to His. They consume his body and blood spiritually speaking. They support the true Church the best they can. They long to be with Christ and the Father after their death. They get to Judgement Day, and God is like, "I'm sorry, you didn't actually get dunked or sprinkled with water in either the Protestant or Roman Catholic Church, am I right on that?" Yeah, unfortunately you're not saved, so...to hell with you...literally."

I know the Father, and He's just not like that. I don't know how to put it...He's not that petty.



Drawing me out? I'm as open as a book can be. To quote the great American serial killer, Aileen Wuornos "I'm good with the Lord!" I am however a bit worried about you. I don't think you're playing with a full deck. I think you need to just calm down and try to discuss things more objectively and less emotionally.




I never said that. Funny you should use the term "delusional."

Nope. No responses are necessary.



People are led in all kinds of directions by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes what seems like a bad path ends up being the wisdom they need to combat dark forces. I can tell you that is definitely the case with me. I was quite into the occult at one time, so I KNOW where that road leads. I've been to the end of it. Conversely, I KNOW the power of Christ. In other words, I've completely explored both ways, and I run to Christ. I'm ashamed of my past, but I was alone and the Church had completely failed me--utterly. I didn't know what I was doing. Now, I do. So, there are things people spend their life believing--but I don't believe them--I KNOW they are true. Do you want me to give you an argument for the existence of God no atheist can defeat? I can do that. Do you want me to tell you how demons behave and what they want and how they get it? I can tell you. Do you want me to show you how witchcraft works, why it works, and why it ultimately is not something you want in your life? I can tell you fully about it. And you know, Jesus spent 40 days with Satan, discussing things, overcoming temptation. He wasn't afraid of Satan, and nor am I. And Jesus wasn't cruel to the demons he cast out of people. He was merciful to them, and I know why, and I feel the same way toward them. I can tell you what heaven is like because I've been there. I can tell you what hell is like because I've been there.

So, what to make of all of it? Well, God didn't leave me abandoned. When I was lost, He came out and brought me home.

Got to go to bed!

Jesus Baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and Fire, but also commanded the apostles to make disciples of all men and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in Matthew 28:19.

Water baptism is a ritual we are expected to undergo if possible, as part of our public confession of belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, by our symbolic death burial and resurrection in water - and it was commanded by Jesus Hmself as part of making disciples of all men.

 

[ScottA]

It would be nice to post as a Christian, but I doubt that would be possible. Since you're the admin, I'll cut and paste this short article I wrote about the differences between Veridicans and classic Christians. Then perhaps you can decide where I fit, or if I do fit. I appreciate your time on this.

-----

Veridicans and Classic Christians: What’s the Difference?


Veridicans are Christians—sort of. That is, if the word “Christian” is taken to mean “followers of Christ,” then yes, we are Christians, but after that our path and the path of classic Christendom diverge. There are similarities between Veridicans and classic Christians, but there are also profound differences, and those differences are pretty big.


For instance, Veridicans and classic Christians both believe Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but Veridicans believe that to a much greater extreme. That is, we follow ONLY Jesus Christ. We don’t follow the Catholic Church, and we don’t follow the Apostles.


Case in point, classic Christians maintain that the entire Holy Bible is the Word of God. Veridicans don’t. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and for that reason, we canonize only the books that deal with His life and teachings: The New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the book of Revelation, but also the non-biblical Gospel of Thomas, and the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. We consider the rest of the Bible to be good for historical context and wisdom, but nothing more than that. In Veridicanism, only the life and teachings of Jesus Christ are holy, so our canon is very much limited to that.


But the canon is only the first divergence; we also hold a different view of Christ and His relationship to mankind. Classic Christians believe they follow Christ and remain followers of Christ; Veridicans believe they follow Christ to BECOME Christ.


We believe that by participating in our Eucharist ritual we die to who we are and are transformed into what Christ is. We become one with Him. We are Him, and he is us. We believe this spiritual rebirth is the only reason God made human beings in the first place. We believe it is the ultimate purpose of all mankind.


Classic Christians, on the other hand, believe they remain who they are even after they are saved. They form a kind of partnership with Christ, yes; they make Christ their leader, yes, but they always retain who they are. They never give their soul to Christ the way Veridicans do.

Finally, there are differences in our spiritual practices: Classic Christians use water baptism and speak in tongues. Some even speak in tongues and then interpret those utterances as a kind of prophecy. Some believe that faith can be used to build wealth and prosperity in this world, and others use a priest to turn the Eucharist into the body and blood of Christ. We don’t do that.


On the other hand, we study Veridican astrology, dream interpretation, astral projection, prophecy, and miracle-working. Classic Christians often have a problem with that. But our spiritual practices come from our belief that we are spiritual descendants of the Magi who were astrologers and the first to find Christ born into the world, to hail Him as a king and to protect him from Herod.


We even adopt a star as our symbol rather than a cross because that star represents the Star of Bethlehem the Magi followed to find Christ, and it is our belief that finding Christ is more important than dwelling on his torture and death in this world.


So, ultimately, we are Christians if that means followers of Christ. In fact, the word “Veridican” means “one who follows that which is true,” and even classical Christians would agree that Jesus Christ is the Truth. But we are vastly different from the traditional Church in many respects. We practice our spirituality differently, and we will not follow anyone but Christ Himself.


All that notwithstanding, we like other Christians. We like to fellowship with them, but many times it’s not the same the other way around. Most Christians don’t like us. So, are we Christians? Sort of.

Welcome!

I don't see where you mentioned the apostle Paul's writings in your canon, which is curious, since he is the only one who outwardly/plainly said "For me to live is Christ." Philippians 1:21 ...Did I miss it?

And the idea of following Jesus, but not those whom He sent out. Hmmm.

Should be interesting.

 

[Taken]

what are you getting at? just curious.

Jumping in
@stunnedbygrace @Cassandra

Johns Water Baptism was a foreshadow of The Lords Baptism.
Dipping in Water, SAVED, SAVES no one.

Johns Water Baptism was A visual RITUAL...for other men to see men:,
...Water Baptism performed BY men TO men
...Admitting their sins, and
...Being Sorry for their sins, and
...Acknowledging only God forgives sins.
...Pronouncing the “washing” away of forgiven sin.
...Water...DID NOT, keep a person from Committing sin.
...Water, used for centuries to physically “cleanse” dirt, grime, from body’s, utensils, pots, clothing.....an acceptable “purification” method.

The Lords Baptism IS SPIRITUAL, NOT VISUAL for men to SEE.
...Holy Spirit Baptism performed BY Lord God TO men.
...Similar method...
* man admits his sins.
* man admits being sorry for his sins.
* man acknowledges, speaking to the Lord God, mans sin was against God and only God forgives sin.
* Spiritual cleansing WITH Jesus’ BLOOD (not water),
* Person Forgiven, and (by all of Gods Works during a CONVERSION), that man Can NEVER AGAIN SIN AGAINST GOD.

* Water can NOT SAVE men.
....Water, temporary cleansing, temporary forgiveness, preparing to Become Saved...
* Gods Spirit Does SAVE men.
....Jesus’ Blood, permanent cleansing, permanent forgiveness, Becomes SavED.

Big Picture...what men do, say, to or for other men....CAN NOT SAVE MEN.
Big Picture...What God does, to or for other men.......IS the ONLY WAY A MAN CAN BE SAVED.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Hidden In Him]

To quote the great American serial killer, Aileen Wuornos "I'm good with the Lord!" I am however a bit worried about you. I don't think you're playing with a full deck.

Edward, you just quoted a serial killer favorably in declaring "I'm good with the Lord," which should bring into question for anyone paying attention here what "Lord" you likely actually serve.

I knew in large part what you were before I even responded to this thread. My responses were simply to confirm it. To continue doing so at this point would be to help you promote your religion, which I can't in good conscience do.

 

[Pearl]

Well, Jesus isn't a priest, he's the Son of God. We become His priests. And clearly you agree with that. So... In the church, everyone is encouraged to become ordained. They don't have to be, but it's encouraged.

It seems that you may have forgotten these passages:

Hebrews 5:9-10
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 6:19-20
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

No ordination necessary, just a personal relationship with the Saviour Jesus the Christ.