Finished work of Christ?

[theefaith]

The apostels teaching is from Christ . The problem is yall are following a pattern contrary to their pattern and teachings .
It aint me teaching contrary to their pattern its the catholic church doing so .
That is what i been trying to tell ya the whole time .
I can claim , you can claim , anyone can claim we are keeping the original pattern both JESUS and those apostels taught ,
but are WE . Yall added a whole lot of stuff that should not have been added .
And while i know GOD can and does still speak through men , If what one claims is of the LORD contradicts
what JESUS or the apostels said , HELLO ITS FALSE . Yall pray to angels pardner , to mary , to the saints .
You are praying to the created , NOT THE CREATOR .
FIRST cease from that error . Yall make any and every excuse for it too .
That is far from the only dangerous doctrine that church has long taught , yet it claims we are the church
and we are free to do these things . Wrong . TIME to learn that bible .
YOu need to learn what is pleasing to GOD .
Not what men teach .

why did Jesus say to hear the church and men

Matt 28:19
Matt 18:17
Lk 10:16
Etc?

 

[Mungo]

Well that is a theory, but Scripture is the facxt and Scripture says this persons theory is lacking!

In what way(s) is this person's theory is lacking, and where does scripture say that?

 

[Mungo]

Jesus redeemed us three ways.

agorazo- He bought us (with His blood
ex-agorazo- He pulled us out of the market place of sin
lutroo- He set us free!

Who did Jesus buy us back from?

Where does scripture say "He pulled us out of the market place of sin"

J
Teh price that was paid at Calvary was thet jesus was punished for us. He took upon HImself all the sins of the Word and as it is written He became sin and God punished jesus instead of us. That is the price paid!

The problem with this is four fold.
1. The punishment for sin is eternal separation from God – but Jesus is not eternally separated from God.
2. God would be legally punishing an innocent person for the sins of another.
3. If the legal debt has been paid then no-one can be condemned for sin since then God would be taking double payment for the same debt.
4. There is no need for God’s mercy since the debt has been paid. Mercy implies reduction or “letting off” of some or all the debt of punishment.

 

[theefaith]

And we can add nothing to or take away anything from His work! all we can do is accept it and have His payment applied to our account or reject it!

what our part?

 

[theefaith]

Well that is a theory, but Scripture is the facxt and Scripture says this persons theory is lacking!

Fact “it” refers to the Passover
Those are the very words the high priest says at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice
“IT IS FINISHED”

 

[amigo de christo]

why did Jesus say to hear the church and men

Matt 28:19
Matt 18:17
Lk 10:16
Etc?

We do hear true lambs in the church . Its just we supposed to TEST all things against what men do teach and say .
Even paul knew all leaders must be tested , even himself .
No , it sounds like you are doing what most folks who are spell bound to their authority has taught them to do .
use the scrips to point to their church . Its not looking good for you my friend .
Just go read the bible for yourself my friend . I will be in prayer for you as well .

 

[theefaith]

So it's not Christ but you who lives in you?

no we are members of Christ in his grace and filled with his spirit but no one is saved until the end!

matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness

2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"

3. The race of faith: the example of Paul

4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"

5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"

6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away

7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".

8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved

9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end

10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"

11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ

13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money

16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"

17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"

18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother

19. Some will abandon the faith

20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"

23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"

24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"

25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning

26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!

 

[theefaith]

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Proof of true faith is humble s humble subjection and obedience to Christ and His holy church!

 

[Behold]

Where does this doctrine come from?

what is the “it”?

John 3:16

2 Corinthians 5:19

 

[Ronald Nolette]

OK, here is an interesting theory I found recently.

The "it" that was finished was the Passover meal that Jesus had been celebrating with his disciples.
Crazy? Bear with me on this.

The Passover meal has four parts to it. Each one end with the drinking of a cup of wine. There is only one cup of wine mentioned in the gospels. This is the third cup. We know this because it came at the end of the meal. The meal was not started until the first two parts were completed.
This third cup is known as the Cup of Blessing".

Paul writes
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? (1Cor 10:16)

Then Matthew tells us that they sang a hymn. This would be the Great Hallel (psalms 114-118) which is sung in the fourth part. Normally then they would drink the fourth cup of wine and the presiding priest would close the Passover meal with the words "Tel Telesti" which means "It Is Finshed" or "It Is Completed".
But no fourth cup was drunk. They went out to the Garden of Gethsemane.

But on the cross, just before he dies, Jesus says "I thirst" and a sponge with sour wine ("common wine" in the NAB) is given him. Jesus drank the wine and said "It is finished" meaning the Passover meal is closed, ended. But not just that Passover meal, all Passover meals are ended.

The New Covenant begins. The New Covenant in Jesus' blood.

YOu asked for Scripture to rebut this theory, so here it is:

You mention Matt. 26. but you err in several points . One, the Seder did not have to have a presiding priest. It was a family meal celebrated in each home.

Second the Hallel is not usually sung at the end, if sung and not simply recited. It can be divided into parts, but the last song sung AFTER the fourth cup is poured (and drunk) is the Eliyahu HaNavi, which is the song inviting Elijah to come.

Jesus would not have broken the Mosaic Law covering passover and end the seder early.

Also in Matt. and Mark Jesus did not drink the common wine offered. In Matt it says when he tasted it he refused. Only JOhn has an implication that Jesus might have drunk it, but based on the testimony of the other two gospels, when John said He received it, it was just the taste and not actually drinking it and certainly not from a cup.

Also Jesus own words said He would to share the Passover meal again with His disciples until He did it a new in the kingdom. The wine offered was a common thing Romans did to keep those crucified alive a little longer to make their death more tortuous.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Who did Jesus buy us back from?

Where does scripture say "He pulled us out of the market place of sin"



The problem with this is four fold.
1. The punishment for sin is eternal separation from God – but Jesus is not eternally separated from God.
2. God would be legally punishing an innocent person for the sins of another.
3. If the legal debt has been paid then no-one can be condemned for sin since then God would be taking double payment for the same debt.
4. There is no need for God’s mercy since the debt has been paid. Mercy implies reduction or “letting off” of some or all the debt of punishment.

That is what ex-agorazo means. agorazo means to buy in the market place (agora), and with the prefix- "ex" it means to remove.

Your four fold philosophical rejection of Jesus death for our sins totally lacks merit.

1. For man it is eternal, for Jesus it was in utter abandonment.
2. Jesus was the scape goat and passover lamb. Scripture declares Jesus died, the just for the unjust! there is nothing that says god cannot allow an innocent to die for the guilty. You are trying to force human philosophy on god.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Also Jesus on the cross was not innocent- He became everyone's sin:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

this was the plan of God from before the world was created!

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

3. another human construct. God put on proviso on the free gift, one has to receive it in order to be applied! That is why people do not go to the lake of fire for sins, but for rejecting the only provision god made for sin!

4. Another human construct. It is His death, that allows God to pour mercy and grace upon His children!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

what our part?

To accept jesus death as the full and only payment to cleanse us from sin.

 

[theefaith]

John 3:16

2 Corinthians 5:19

Is the it the Passover sacrifice (from the last supper to the death of the lamb with his blood in the cross “door post and lentil”) or the work of redemption

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is the it the Passover sacrifice (from the last supper to the death of the lamb with his blood in the cross “door post and lentil”) or the work of redemption

Well clearly define the "it" so we can be specific.

 

[Mungo]

YOu asked for Scripture to rebut this theory, so here it is:

You mention Matt. 26. but you err in several points . One, the Seder did not have to have a presiding priest. It was a family meal celebrated in each home.

My error, in that the source I got this from actually said the person administering the meal or priest.

The Passover meal was also celebrated by groups who were not family - as Jesus did with his disciples.

Second the Hallel is not usually sung at the end, if sung and not simply recited. It can be divided into parts, but the last song sung AFTER the fourth cup is poured (and drunk) is the Eliyahu HaNavi, which is the song inviting Elijah to come.

According to a Jewish site the Hallel comes before the drinking of the fourth cup.

Jesus would not have broken the Mosaic Law covering passover and end the seder early.

That's the point. He hadn't ended the Seder early. He ended it on the cross and declared "Tel Telesti" which means "It Is Finshed" or "It Is Completed".

Also in Matt. and Mark Jesus did not drink the common wine offered. In Matt it says when he tasted it he refused. Only JOhn has an implication that Jesus might have drunk it, but based on the testimony of the other two gospels, when John said He received it, it was just the taste and not actually drinking it and certainly not from a cup.

Also Jesus own words said He would to share the Passover meal again with His disciples until He did it a new in the kingdom. The wine offered was a common thing Romans did to keep those crucified alive a little longer to make their death more tortuous.

Jesus was offered wine on at least two occasions before he was crucified. That is when he refused it.
It was when he was on the cross that John (remember he was an eye witness) records that Jesus instigated the offer of the wine when he said "I thirst" (John 19:28). When it was offered John records he received it. (vs 30).

I note that you started your reply " YOu asked for Scripture to rebut this theory, so here it is:"
Yet you offered no scripture just your opinions.

 

[ScottA]

Is the it the Passover sacrifice (from the last supper to the death of the lamb with his blood in the cross “door post and lentil”) or the work of redemption

They are the same, once for all.

 

[theefaith]

To accept jesus death as the full and only payment to cleanse us from sin.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

 

[theefaith]

Well clearly define the "it" so we can be specific.

“it is finished”
The Passover sacrifice!

 

[theefaith]

They are the same, once for all.

you’re right

 

[Mungo]

That is what ex-agorazo means. agorazo means to buy in the market place (agora), and with the prefix- "ex" it means to remove.

I asked Where does scripture say "He pulled us out of the market place of sin"

Chapter and verse please.

Your four fold philosophical rejection of Jesus death for our sins totally lacks merit.

A comment like that just shows the weakness of your position

1. For man it is eternal, for Jesus it was in utter abandonment.

An opinion with no evidence.

2. Jesus was the scape goat and passover lamb.

Where does scripture say Jesus was the scapegoat?

Scripture declares Jesus died, the just for the unjust! there is nothing that says god cannot allow an innocent to die for the guilty. You are trying to force human philosophy on god.

Allowing someone to die for the guilty is not the same as legally punishing a person for the sins of another.

God is a God of justice (PS 33:5, 89:14, 99:4, Rev 15: for example).

Are you really suggesting that a Just God would punish an innocent person for the sins of another?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I agree with that scripture but it has no bearing on what we are discussing.

Also Jesus on the cross was not innocent- He became everyone's sin:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

No he didn't become a sinner. The term made to be sin means he became a sacrifice for sin not that Jesus became a sinful person. He "knew no sin".

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[a] he condemned sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3)
The footnote [a] says Or and as a sin offering.

The early fathers, whom commented on 2Cor 5:21 believed made sin meant then likeness of sinful flesh.
For example
Augustine "on account of the likeness of sinful flesh in which He came, He was called sin"
Gregory of Nyssa"He made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin,” giving once more the name of “sin” to the flesh."
Ambrose “Christ is said to have been made, but of a woman; that is, He was “made” as regards his birth from a Virgin … He Who in his flesh bore our flesh, in His body bore our infirmities and our curses … So it is written elsewhere: Who knew no sin, but was made sin for us”
And there are more

Moreover John Calving understood it the same way.
[Paul] places the fountain of righteousness entirely in the incarnation of Christ: “He has made him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21)

this was the plan of God from before the world was created!

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That says nothing about punishment. you are clutching at straws

3. another human construct. God put on proviso on the free gift, one has to receive it in order to be applied! That is why people do not go to the lake of fire for sins, but for rejecting the only provision god made for sin!

Another opinion without scriptural support. It is a matter of Justice that you cannot punish two people form the same offence.
God is a God of Justice.
For the Lord is a God of justice (Is 30:18)
“The Rock, his work is perfect;
for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and right is he. (Dt 32:4)

4. Another human construct. It is His death, that allows God to pour mercy and grace upon His children!

Again another opinion with no scriptural support.

Scripture is very clear that forgiveness means letting someone off the debt they are due (e.g. Mt 18:23-35)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

According to a Jewish site the Hallel comes before the drinking of the fourth cup.

The Hallel could be sung in four parts or recited in four parts. Also the fourth part was probably what teh disples were singing when they left. But it is the Eliyahu HaNavi, which is directly associated with teh fourth cup. The Hallel may or may not be.

That's the point. He hadn't ended the Seder early. He ended it on the cross and declared "Tel Telesti" which means "It Is Finshed" or "It Is Completed".

That is pure speculation that runs totally counter to Mosaic Law and Jewish Custom.

Jesus was offered wine on at least two occasions before he was crucified. That is when he refused it.
It was when he was on the cross that John (remember he was an eye witness) records that Jesus instigated the offer of the wine when he said "I thirst" (John 19:28). When it was offered John records he received it. (vs 30).

I note that you started your reply " YOu asked for Scripture to rebut this theory, so here it is:"
Yet you offered no scripture just your opinions.

I cited the scriptures. And where do you get Jesus was offered wine twice?