The Rapture: Too Good to Be True?

[marks]

OK, which church was Jesus talking about in Matthew 16:18?

Matthew 16:15-21 KJV
15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

It means Jesus' assembly of those He has called out of the world.

And I'm realizing I should have been more specific in my post, the gentile ekklesia.



Previous to Israel's national rejection of Jesus, gentiles would enter covenant with God by first proselytizing to Israel. After Israel's rejection of Jesus, the Gospel was sent directly to the Gentiles.

Much love!

 

[michaelvpardo]

I agree with you, it's absurd to think that any man knows more than God. Of course, that's not what I was suggesting. The Gentile church was a mystery, musterion, that is, something unknown until being revealed by God.

Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV
1) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Colossians 1:25-27 KJV
25) Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If it had been previously revealed, it would not remain a mystery. These truths were hid, and then revealed not by Jesus, but by Paul, at Jesus' direction. Not that man knew something that God did not, rather, that God directed the timing of the revelation of these truths.

Much love!

I appreciate your explanation, but every doctrine of significance to the church, right down to the order of service, was explicitly taught in the New Testament, including the nature of the resurrection and the difference between a resurrected body and a natural body. Yet somehow there is no explicit teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture, just a collection of verses pulled out of context, that together disagree with Revelation 20 :4-6.

An interpretation that breaks God's word and doesn't allow a harmonizing or reconciliation of scripture to itself is not of the Holy Spirit. God doesn’t change His mind. He doesn't lie. And He is not a God of confusion, that's Satan's job and he's done it well since he deceived Eve in the garden of Eden.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Matthew 16:15-21 KJV
15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

It means Jesus' assembly of those He has called out of the world.

And I'm realizing I should have been more specific in my post, the gentile ekklesia.



Previous to Israel's national rejection of Jesus, gentiles would enter covenant with God by first proselytizing to Israel. After Israel's rejection of Jesus, the Gospel was sent directly to the Gentiles.

Much love!

This is not entirely accurate. Peter was an Apostle to the Jews and the RCC is proof that Jewish traditions persisted in the Roman church. The Ethiopian church even continued practices normally associated with the ark of the covenant and animal sacrifice. The Ethiopians still use the ancient "timbrells" used in temple worship and celebrate one holy day by wearing "tabot" (pronounced tabou) bound upon their heads, which are wooden replicas of the stone tablets of the law. They even claim to have the original ark in saint Mary of Zion church in Axum, Ethiopia.

Christian hypotheses are nice, but reality is frequently proof of error.

 

[marks]

This is not entirely accurate. Peter was an Apostle to the Jews and the RCC is proof that Jewish traditions persisted in the Roman church. The Ethiopian church even continued practices normally associated with the ark of the covenant and animal sacrifice. The Ethiopians still use the ancient "timbrells" used in temple worship and celebrate one holy day by wearing "tabot" (pronounced tabou) bound upon their heads, which are wooden replicas of the stone tablets of the law. They even claim to have the original ark in saint Mary of Zion church in Axum, Ethiopia.

Christian hypotheses are nice, but reality is frequently proof of error.

I'm not referring to church traditions, many Jewish traditions have persisted to this day, just the same, what I've said is correct.

Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV
11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The Apostle goes on to say that of the two Jesus has made "one new man", neither Jewish, nor Gentile, but His body, in which is neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

 

[marks]

An interpretation that breaks God's word and doesn't allow a harmonizing or reconciliation of scripture to itself is not of the Holy Spirit.

I could not agree with you on this more than I do.

This has a lot to do with how I arrive at my views. I'm a stickler for harmony, it seems way beyond most people I have occasion to discuss these things with.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Christian hypotheses are nice, but reality is frequently proof of error.

So I'd have to say . . . be careful about what hypotheses you might form. Reality may show them false. Ground your ideas entirely in the Word of God, that's what I say!



Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

If the church is raptured before the reign of the Antichrist, then the church doesn't live and reign with Him and is judged at the great white throne, not at the bema seat of Christ. Can you see the logical contradictions of a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine? If the doctrine disagrees with the plain meaning of scripture, it's just false.

So that means all those already in Paradise suffer the same fate as those raptured? You make no sense, because you claim those already in Eternal Life are in the same situation as those claiming a pre-trib rapture. You do realize those in Paradise are already raptured and before your alledged AC. If the church on earth cannot escape, neither can any one else. That must mean they all leave Paradise to experience the AC as well. Since that is your only reason there is a Bema Seat, ie the AC.

 

[Timtofly]

The church either is the bride of christ or it isn't. We either live and reign with Him or we don't. The scriptures are clear, the pre-tribulation rapture just doesn't fit the plain meaning of the word.

Of course pre-tribulation makes sense. The majority of the church is already in Paradise. You going to bring them all down to enjoy this wonderful time of tribulation?

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, 'Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

So you think you can hide your depths of following Judaism, since you show you don't even read the very New Testament Scriptures you quote?

This all happens after the fiery cleansing of the Second Coming. Judaism has nothing to do with it.

You put Satan in the NHNE. Should we call that Satanism?

 

[michaelvpardo]

So that means all those already in Paradise suffer the same fate as those raptured? You make no sense, because you claim those already in Eternal Life are in the same situation as those claiming a pre-trib rapture. You do realize those in Paradise are already raptured and before your alledged AC. If the church on earth cannot escape, neither can any one else. That must mean they all leave Paradise to experience the AC as well. Since that is your only reason there is a Bema Seat, ie the AC.

This is what is known as inverted logic from a false supposition. You are arguing from things that I haven't said as opposed to arguing from things that I have which makes your argument against your own fantasies of what I mean by what I haven't said. It's a child's game.

What biblical proof do you have of any rapture to paradise? Even the thief on the cross was promised paradise on the same day as the Lord's death, yet there is no mention of his bodily rapture in scripture. Don't you think that is an important detail to leave out of the Biblical narrative?
Or was Lazarus raptured? It happened and everyone just forgot?
The whole point of that famous passage from 1 Thessalonians is that those who sleep shouldn't be mourned, having the promise of the resurrection.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
The word "sleep" is a euphemism for died, not for raptured. Those who sleep are not aware of life and rise to the light of the sun. The souls of the dead might be in paradise, but we have no biblical proof of this at all. The point is that Christ will gather His church once and only once. There are not two churches, there are not two separate groups of saints. There is no division between Jew or Greek for we are all one in Christ.

There is one passage in which Jesus spoke a parable of a rich man and of poor Lazarus, both passing away with one in paradise and the other suffering torments. It isn't directly identified as a parable, but in context, Jesus spoke this before His enemies of the Pharisees and disciples, so we know that this was a parable of judgment and not a literal story.

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, Matthew 13:34

You may be unable to see these things now, but you surely will.

 

[michaelvpardo]

This all happens after the fiery cleansing of the Second Coming. Judaism has nothing to do with it.

You put Satan in the NHNE. Should we call that Satanism?

You have a very vivid imagination, but the imagination of man is only evil from his youth.
Where exactly have I mentioned Satan?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Of course pre-tribulation makes sense. The majority of the church is already in Paradise. You going to bring them all down to enjoy this wonderful time of tribulation?

Supposition, not biblical truth.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I'm not referring to church traditions, many Jewish traditions have persisted to this day, just the same, what I've said is correct.

Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV
11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The Apostle goes on to say that of the two Jesus has made "one new man", neither Jewish, nor Gentile, but His body, in which is neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

Do you realize that you've separated out a gentile church in your previous post and combined the Jews and Gentiles in this one as one church? Your reasoning on this subject is compromised as you've just disagreed with yourself. The Old Testament saints looked forward to Christ's first appearing, we look forward to His second, but there is only one church of both gentiles and Jews, all believers in Christ Jesus. This isn't a particularly difficult concept and evidenced by scripture. Even the RCC acknowledges the Old Testament saints and they aren't particularly good at handling scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

I appreciate your explanation, but every doctrine of significance to the church, right down to the order of service, was explicitly taught in the New Testament, including the nature of the resurrection and the difference between a resurrected body and a natural body. Yet somehow there is no explicit teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture, just a collection of verses pulled out of context, that together disagree with Revelation 20 :4-6.

An interpretation that breaks God's word and doesn't allow a harmonizing or reconciliation of scripture to itself is not of the Holy Spirit. God doesn’t change His mind. He doesn't lie. And He is not a God of confusion, that's Satan's job and he's done it well since he deceived Eve in the garden of Eden.

This is not entirely true. The church is taken out of the mess at the Second Coming. That is clearly taught in Scripture.

The other point is the church was never told the point in time the Second Coming would happen period. Jesus told the apostles that He did not even know. That has never changed. The error was when the church started declaring the moment of the Second Coming. So no one should state exactly when they know when the Second Coming happens. Those are the ones who are decieved. Not by Satan, but by their own foolish theology.

The Second Coming is not in Revelation 19, and clearly not about Revelation 20:4. That is the error that is being taught in the church. But most here will dismiss that point, and continue in their own human understanding.

 

[Timtofly]

This is what is known as inverted logic from a false supposition. You are arguing from things that I haven't said as opposed to arguing from things that I have which makes your argument against your own fantasies of what I mean by what I haven't said. It's a child's game.

What biblical proof do you have of any rapture to paradise? Even the thief on the cross was promised paradise on the same day as the Lord's death, yet there is no mention of his bodily rapture in scripture. Don't you think that is an important detail to leave out of the Biblical narrative?
Or was Lazarus raptured? It happened and everyone just forgot?
The whole point of that famous passage from 1 Thessalonians is that those who sleep shouldn't be mourned, having the promise of the resurrection.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
The word "sleep" is a euphemism for died, not for raptured. Those who sleep are not aware of life and rise to the light of the sun. The souls of the dead might be in paradise, but we have no biblical proof of this at all. The point is that Christ will gather His church once and only once. There are not two churches, there are not two separate groups of saints. There is no division between Jew or Greek for we are all one in Christ.

Exactly; Christ brings them with Him. So they are already there. The church meets in the air, not on the ground. Jesus told Mary that He was ascending that day. The OT ascended with Him. The thief was already there, because he got there like every one since the Cross. They all are there, yet you claim they are not. You then quote a verse that states they are there, and Christ brings them with Him at the Second Coming. I am not using inverted logic. You are the one claiming the church goes through the tribulation. The church would definitely have to leave Paradise to do that. You think the church is on earth. It is not. Paul claims we all, that means every single one, are seated in heaven with Christ, called Paradise. Paul called Paradise the third heaven. Hebrews 11 calls it a city not made by human hands.

That is where the church is. So when you say the church is going through the tribulation, do you split the church into two groups, or not? The bema seat happens at some point to the church as a whole, but certainly not on or after Revelation 19. There is literally no way in Revelation 19, the church is split in two halves, one on earth and the other in heaven. You all make stuff up to force this point into the narrative with no actual Words from God. You don't even have proof the 7th Trumpet is sounding at that point. It does, but you disregard any point of explanation, and then just make stuff up in some chronological hodge podge of nonsense.

There is one passage in which Jesus spoke a parable of a rich man and of poor Lazarus, both passing away with one in paradise and the other suffering torments. It isn't directly identified as a parable, but in context, Jesus spoke this before His enemies of the Pharisees and disciples, so we know that this was a parable of judgment and not a literal story.

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, Matthew 13:34

You may be unable to see these things now, but you surely will.

Abraham's bosom was not Paradise. Paradise was off limits until the Cross. If any one had been there prior to the Cross, it would have been Moses and Elijah. They appeared on the mount of Transfiguration. Lazarus was resurrected out of Abraham's bosom. No one is resurrected out of Paradise. Paradise is that final place of Resurrection. Abraham's bosom was resurrected at the Cross, when their bodies came out of their graves in Matthew 27. A soul is only resurrected from death one time, even the death referred to as sleep in the OT. Jesus pointed out they were not sleeping in Abraham's bosom. They are not currently sleeping in Paradise either. They serve God day and night in His Temple.

 

[Timtofly]

You have a very vivid imagination, but the imagination of man is only evil from his youth.
Where exactly have I mentioned Satan?

Where exactly have I mentioned Judaism?

Supposition, not biblical truth.

Supposition is assuming the church goes through the tribulation. You clearly have no proof. The church has been born out of tribulation. Many have been martyred for their faith. The tribulation coming to earth is not for the church one iota.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Where exactly have I mentioned Judaism?



Supposition is assuming the church goes through the tribulation. You clearly have no proof. The church has been born out of tribulation. Many have been martyred for their faith. The tribulation coming to earth is not for the church one iota.

Your eyes will see it.

 

[marks]

Do you realize that you've separated out a gentile church in your previous post and combined the Jews and Gentiles in this one as one church? Your reasoning on this subject is compromised as you've just disagreed with yourself.

There's a lot more depth to this, we are just skimming the surface here.

I've long thought that one's ecclesiology will have more to do with they rapture view than anything else. And how literally/metaphorically they interpret the Bible. But then those are inextricably bound also.

This may seem a change of topic but I assure you it is not. Let me ask you, are you millennialist? Do you believe that Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem, that Israel will be an entire nation of priests, and that the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem to worship Jesus there?

Do you believe that the 12 Apostles will sit as judges over the 12 tribes?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Supposition, not biblical truth.

Do you understand the point that he is making?

There is no "requirement" for any particular believer to experience the tribulations of the end of the age.

And just the same, no believer is exempt from experiencing tribulations in the course of their life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your reasoning on this subject is compromised as you've just disagreed with yourself.

I think this is a bit premature . . . or . . . can you describe back to me in simple terms what my reasoning is? Perhaps you understand me better than it seems.

Much love!