The Rapture: Too Good to Be True?
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Davy
Well-Known Member
You haven't studied enough to realize that this earth is NOT going to be literally destroyed, but only cleansed. And that cleansing will happen on the "day of the Lord", NOT after the future "thousand years".
2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV
Peter's subject in 2 Peter 3 is the destruction of the previous world earth ages, by water, with the final future one being by fire. NONE of those previous destructions upon the earth literally destroyed the entire... earth, but only cleansed its surface. God's consuming fire on the future "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns will do the same, as there are many, many prophetic Bible Scriptures that reveal the earth STILL exists after Christ's future return!
Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV
So why don't you guys actually read and study your Bible, instead of trying to play church? I get tired of having to repeat Bible Scripture that you guys won't read.
@michaelvpardo Also....1 Corinthians 11.26: 'till He come'....
Yes and this is concurrent with the 1st resurrection. The return of Christ is associated with "the last trump."
There can only be one last of anything.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No friend, what you said above doesn't work.
It should be obvious that the events of Revelation 22:14-15 are Millennial timing. It does not matter that it is written in the 22nd Chapter of Revelation! You should easily know the difference, otherwise it reveals you have heeded men's traditions of wrongly thinking everything written in Revelation happens in the order John wrote it down. It does not, nor does everything written in the OT Books of God's prophets happen in the order as written. One MUST understand the 'event', not Chapter numbers.
HOW... do we know the Revelation 22:14-15 verses are Millennial timing? Easy... the wicked ARE STILL THERE, outside the gates of the holy city!
Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV
God's River and the Tree of Life are to return with Christ's coming. This is revealed for the Millennial timing in Ezekiel 40 through Ezekiel 47 about God's "house" (i.e., of John 14). Ezekiel 47 specifically reveals the return to earth of God's River of the Waters of Life, an REAL River that where it flows, the earth's waters are healed. The Tree of Life is also mentioned with it, on either side of that River. That happens as a part of Christ's future Millennial reign with the establishing of the Millennial sanctuary.
Thus the fact that those wicked are still... outside of the gates of that holy city, means that event timing has to be Millennial timing, simply because the wicked are all destroyed at the "second death" per Revelation 20. Because you don't know this means you don't anything about Christ's future Millennial sanctuary, nor God's River, nor the future Tree of Life, all manifested on earth for Christ's future "thousand years" reign.
Truth7t7
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Correction:
God will dwell in the "New Jerusalem" in the "New Heaven and Earth", this Earth will pass away by the Lord's fire 2 Peter 3:10-13
"Behold, I Make All Things New"
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Davy, the fact that you admit that Revelation is not literal, nor linear, compromises your entire Millennial explanation.Davy said:
God's Kingdom is now, in this time period. It began during the time of Christ and ends upon His return. Just as 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 makes plain. No need to read a bunch of complicated doctrine into it at all, it is plain. And when scripture is plain, we go with the plain translation. That is the rule.
Rev. 20:1-7 appears to be plain, but is contradicted by so many passages in the Bible - including all throughout Revelation itself, that it cannot stand on its own. It desperately needs supporting scripture that does not exist in the Bible anywhere.
Therefore, if God's Kingdom is now, the sinners and wicked outside the gates of the Kingdom are all those alive today who are unjust and unholy. Clears it up perfectly and is not contradicted by anything in scripture. Just as 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 tells us, Jesus' Kingdom is finalized and turned over to the Father upon Jesus' return. NOT 1,000 years later.
The plain, uncomplicated with confusing interpretations, scripture is the message God intended with His Word. He is not the author of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:33 And, let me tell ya, the Millennium Theory is absolutely confusing as it could possibly be. It makes NO sense whatsoever.
When Jesus returns, ... that is the end.
Matthew 24:29-31
1 Corinthians 15:22-26
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Isaiah 13:9-11
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Why don't you read Revelation 20, and realize that heaven and earth pass away leaving only the GWT? Who said the earth is destroyed by fire? Not me!
The Resurrection/Rapture is ONE EVENT. So you can apply "the Blessed Hope" to both. See 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.
You can, but the hope of the Jews was the resurrection. The resurrection was the reason Pharisees existed. The Sadducees didn't believe in a resurrection. The first resurrection is described in the book of the Revelation as happening when Christ returns. Those who live and reign with Him are identified as those that came out of the great tribulation:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4
If the church is raptured before the reign of the Antichrist, then the church doesn't live and reign with Him and is judged at the great white throne, not at the bema seat of Christ. Can you see the logical contradictions of a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine? If the doctrine disagrees with the plain meaning of scripture, it's just false.
The pastor at the church I visited on this past Sunday was trying to teach pre-tribulation rapture from Mathew 24, but had to qualify his message by making the teaching only apply to the Jews and bouncing around to different books and passages that he acknowledged made it all seem confusing. It was confusing because he was eisogeting the scriptures rather than drawing the meaning from the text, a bit like trying to place a square peg in a round hole.
The church either is the bride of christ or it isn't. We either live and reign with Him or we don't. The scriptures are clear, the pre-tribulation rapture just doesn't fit the plain meaning of the word.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, 'Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV
Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV
Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV
So you think you can hide your depths of following Judaism, since you show you don't even read the very New Testament Scriptures you quote?
Why revert to "the hope of the Jews"? Paul calls the Resurrection/Rapture is mystery. It was revealed only to the Church.
Enoch, I wish you would reconsider using the term 'the rapture.' It is a doubled baked work of evil people and demons.
In short:
1 Thess 4:7 speaks to 'harpazo' a verb, to 'be caught up' (snatched up, grabbed) to meet the King at the ONE single event, and the Greek transliterated word is the 'parousia.' The Second Coming of the King as one event, and a noun, not two events.
Evil men (Scofield, Darby etc.) substituted the Greek word 'harpazo' and replaced it with a Latin word, deliberately, to suit and support their Zionist religion cultist idea of a pre-7 year 'rapture' event and then a post-event 'rapture.'
They added in the Latin word 'rapiere' that means to be raped or be kidnapped, a verb. And then they went further and re-baked it, and changed this verb into a noun as an event call THE RAPTURE. This is evil work.
Just saying.....
No, he never mentioned a rapture, only the event at the first resurrection. The English word rapture has a broader meaning than being physically removed from the Earth, but being "caught up" is consistent with the gathering of the saints to the judgment and the kingdom prepared by God.
There is no hint of multiple gatherings in scripture unless the appearance of deceased saints in the streets of Jerusalem following the resurrection was the "rapture" and we all missed it. Paul wrote his comments on the first resurrection years later, so I think we can rule that out.
However, you haven't answered the objection, (and no one ever does) raised by the passage I quoted from the book of the Revelation.
Are there multiple churches?
Did John make a mistake in his last book?
Is the Church judged at the great white throne judgment while only the "tribulation saints" live and reign with Christ?
You need to answer these questions at least to your own satisfaction, but making rapture doctrine fit them is a feat of linguistic gymnastics that not one soul has performed. (John MacArthur took a good shot at it, but fell short of answering these questions and he's a tremendous scholar.)
If you wish to use three words instead of one go for it. You can say "caught up together". Same difference.
Really? What do you think Paul was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 (which I already pointed out to you)? The Rapture pertains to those who are alive and are taken to Heaven. The Resurrection pertains to those who had already passed on and are given immortal glorified bodies and then taken back to Heaven. But the two events are almost simultaneously. So take a close look at those passages.
Keraz
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Nowhere do they, or anywhere else; say the Lord will take His people to heaven.
I Thess 4:17 tells of a transportation to where Jesus is. Confirmed by Matthew 24:31
1 Cor 15:50-56 is a prophecy about what will happen at the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium.
Those who have chosen to believe in a rapture outta here, before any testing or tribulations, are totally unprepared for the shock and awe of the forthcoming Lords Day of fiery wrath.
Again, Thessalonians chapter 4 is about the first resurrection, not a pre-tribulation rapture, and specifically says that this won't occur until after the son of perdition is revealed. I've already forgotten which verse you mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, but that chapter goes into great length about the resurrection. Which verse do you believe is about some hidden rapture doctrine?
You're still ignoring the obvious contradictions with Revelation 20:4-6. These are the verses that delivered me from that false doctrine and it was the Holy Spirit that pointed them out. I resisted the notion that the pre-tribulation rapture was false for years despite the prompting of His Spirit because I respected the men who taught it, but God wanted my understanding to grow, not to stall.
OK, which church was Jesus talking about in Matthew 16:18? It's absurd to think that Paul knew more about the church than God Himself.
I agree with you, it's absurd to think that any man knows more than God. Of course, that's not what I was suggesting. The Gentile church was a mystery, musterion, that is, something unknown until being revealed by God.
Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV
1) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Colossians 1:25-27 KJV
25) Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
If it had been previously revealed, it would not remain a mystery. These truths were hid, and then revealed not by Jesus, but by Paul, at Jesus' direction. Not that man knew something that God did not, rather, that God directed the timing of the revelation of these truths.
Much love!
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