Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Titus]

Danthemailman, You teach two kinds of faith alone:
1. First faith is alone without obedience. This faith alone cannot save.
2. This also is faith alone. But this faith also without obedience does save. Because supposedly it trusts God.
Your teaching on faith, Danthemailman is never found Biblically. The Bible never defines faith that can save as without obedience(works).
First most obvious reason is, faith itself is a work, John 6:28-29.

Works in James chapter 2 are obeying Gods commandments.
That is the faith that saves us.
Any faith without, the works James is teaching about.
Is a dead faith that has no obedience to God.

Danthemailman you are mistakenly teaching faith that is disobedient saves.
Every time you teach faith apart from obedience(works) saves.

There is no trust in a faith that does not obey, Danthemailman.

Faith only per James = empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains 'alone' - barren of works. (James 2:14) Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ 'alone' for salvation and not in works

A faith that trusts in Jesus cannot be void of obedience!

A trusting faith by nature will have works as James teaches.

There is no such faith that trusts God at the same time lacks obedience(works).

The above quote from you is again, a misunderstanding of what Faith is that saves.

The first definition you give is dead, clearly. Because it has no obedience(works) to God.
The second definition of faith you give is also dead. Because it has no obedience(works).
Since your second definition is dead because it is absent of obedience.
It cannot have trust as you mistakenly claim it has.

James teaches faith that is alone is dead, always!
It cannot be anything but dead.
Your false definition of saving faith is barren of works.

Nowhere does James ever describe faith that is alive as alone ie without obedience to God.

Danthemailman, you are teaching against what James taught on saving faith.

James taught only faith alone is dead, never alive. Never can justify.

James 2:20,
-But do you want to know O, foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Danthemailman you teach faith alone can justify! You are telling James he is wrong!

Faith alone has no trust in God.
How can it?
Faith alone is disobedience.

A person who does not trust his parachute will not obey the command to jump from the plain.

Jesus commands obedience to His gospel. Those who do not trust Jesus will not obey His commandments to be saved,
Mark 16:15-16
-and Jesus said unto them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
-He that believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Danthemailman, you do not trust Jesus in faith only. True faith puts trust in what Jesus says to do.
That doing, is the obedience ie baptism.

The demons have faith alone, James 2:19, they have no trust Jesus will save them.
Likewise you have no trust obeying Jesus' direct commandment to be baptized will save you.

Danthemailman please answer my question.

If faith alone ie absent of all works saves us.

Then by your definition of salvation it must also be true, that one can live the rest of his life saved and never do a work of keeping Jesus' commandments Ever in his life, must still go to heaven, if faith only really saves us!

If you must do one good work ever in your life to be in heaven.
Then, Danthemailman, your faith alone salvation is false!

Your salvation of faith and no works contradicts itself, therefore cannot be Gods teaching on salvation.

 

[Taken]

You wrongly define Biblical faith as seperate from works.
It is a faith with works,
James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works, and not faith alone.

Scriptural definition of FAITH...
Eph 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is BY God
Salvation is A GIFT OF God
Faith is A GIFT OF God...FOR HEARING....expressly revealed Hearing IS the beginning...start of Receiving Faith from God.

A man is Offered Gods Grace, BY God.
A man is Offered Gods Salvation, THROUGH Faith.
A man is Offered Gods Faith, OF Gods Word.
A man RECEIVES God Word, BY (DEFAULT or CHOOSING) TO Hear Gods Word.
A man HEARING, Gods Word, OF God receives Gods Gift of FAITH.

(And to Note...FAITH from God is given a man “in measures”....)
Man HEARING little, receives little faith.
Man HEARING more, receives more faith.
Man NOT Hearing, stops receiving faith.

*A man HEARING, may be a child, caused by DEFAULT, to hear, by his parents speaking, by being taken to a church, may be a person, hearing a spouse, friend, neighbor, tv telecast, radio....
* A man HEARING the Word of God, by default, without himself actually “choosing” to Hear Gods Word....but is.
And the fact is, that man can not “un-hear” what he Heard.
And the fact is, that man “IS” freely receiving “measures” of Gods Gift of Faith.
THAT IS a mans FAITH without Works.
(No effort, No works of that man.)

A man HEARING, caused by the individual man CHOOSING, Hearing Gods Word, Increases receiving Gods gift of FAITH.
A man Choosing to CONTINUE, TO HEAR, IS THAT MANS Works.
That IS a mans express effort, WORKS, to continue HEARING, the Word of God.

That is plainly what James is addressing.

Hearing by happenstance does not = works.
Hearing by choosing to Hear = works

 

[Happy Trails]

Did you read the verses I posted?

Your traditions do not meet the requirements of those Scriptures. You know they don't.

That is not an explanation.

That is some cryptic accusation.

Try again.

 

[Titus]

Danthemailman, Greek word pistis,
Jude 3,
-Behold while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation. I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the Faith(pistis) which was once for all delivered to the saints.

The Greek word pistis ie faith in Jude 3 is being used as the gospel of Jesus Christ.

This Greek word pistis only has true meaning if it is defined in the context of its usage.

This is true of all words when we try to define their true meaning.

You need to know Danthemailman, that pistis(faith) in the new testament also means faithfulness.
Faithfulness is obedience to God. Never just mere mental assent only.

Saving faith properly defined is belief that obeys God.
Never belief and disobedience to direct commandments, Mark 16:15-16

 

[Happy Trails]

.....and that’s the way it “ should” be.....
Worship our Savior every hour of everyday.....not just for one hour on Sunday...

So, you are resting 24/7. How does anything get done?

YHVH told us to set apart the Sabbath as a special day. It is a day of rest.
He said it was a sign between him and his people.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But I didn’t do that. I agree that it’s talking about the wicked or the weeds. They are gathered out of HIS KINGDOM (Christ’s Kingdom) as the Scriptures say in a nominal sense by the fact that they may profess Christ and do things for Him, but yet their heart is far from Him.

Sounds like those who did n judgement day claim all these works and Jesus says he never knew them (never saved)

or James where they claim to have faith but in reality it is just belief. They have no actual faith proven by fact they have no works

 

[Titus]

Scriptural definition of FAITH...
Eph 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is BY God
Salvation is A GIFT OF God
Faith is A GIFT OF God...FOR HEARING....expressly revealed Hearing IS the beginning...start of Receiving Faith from God.

A man is Offered Gods Grace, BY God.
A man is Offered Gods Salvation, THROUGH Faith.
A man is Offered Gods Faith, OF Gods Word.
A man RECEIVES God Word, BY (DEFAULT or CHOOSING) TO Hear Gods Word.
A man HEARING, Gods Word, OF God receives Gods Gift of FAITH.

(And to Note...FAITH from God is given a man “in measures”....)
Man HEARING little, receives little faith.
Man HEARING more, receives more faith.
Man NOT Hearing, stops receiving faith.

*A man HEARING, may be a child, caused by DEFAULT, to hear, by his parents speaking, by being taken to a church, may be a person, hearing a spouse, friend, neighbor, tv telecast, radio....
* A man HEARING the Word of God, by default, without himself actually “choosing” to Hear Gods Word....but is.
And the fact is, that man can not “un-hear” what he Heard.
And the fact is, that man “IS” freely receiving “measures” of Gods Gift of Faith.
THAT IS a mans FAITH without Works.
(No effort, No works of that man.)

A man HEARING, caused by the individual man CHOOSING, Hearing Gods Word, Increases receiving Gods gift of FAITH.
A man Choosing to CONTINUE, TO HEAR, IS THAT MANS Works.
That IS a mans express effort, WORKS, to continue HEARING, the Word of God.

That is plainly what James is addressing.

Hearing by happenstance does not = works.
Hearing by choosing to Hear = works

The discussion on faith that me and Danthemailman are having is,

Is Biblical saving faith a faith with no works
Or
Is Biblical saving faith a faith of belief and works.

Dan believes as all faith onlyist's believe that saving faith has no works involved. Typical Baptist doctrine.

The Bible defines faith never as mental assent but always taking action on the belief by obeying God.
Just as James is teaching.
Faith without obedience is dead, it cannot justify man,
James 2:20
James 2:24

 

[Titus]

Eternally grateful, you just disproved we can be saved by faith only here,

James where they claim to have faith but in reality it is just belief. They have no actual faith proven by fact they have no works

You admit true faith has works.
You said it yourself, true faith has works

It must also be true that a faith that is not true saving faith has no works ie faith only

 

[Happy Trails]

Those that know the history of it, know that the Jewish Christians observed the Law. And that is both good and bad because they were still practicing polygamy and concubinage. As a strange turn of irony most of the Gentile Christians found that "distasteful"



No Christianity was declining due to shear mass of people being killed. The Romans were killing on sight. Over 250 years of killing Christian had reduced their numbers. The only branch of Christianity that was growing was Gnosticism and that was because they did things in secret.


Again, I am sure they would not condone celebrating Yahweh with Pagan h

Any historical document supporting your claims?

 

[Happy Trails]

I am not going to endlessly argue with you in your keeping of the Old Law.

Titus 3:9
“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”

Right. Stop striving against the Law.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eternally grateful, you just disproved we can be saved by faith only here,



You admit true faith has works.
You said it yourself, true faith has works

It must also be true that a faith that is not true saving faith has no works ie faith only

There is no such thing as faith only

you don’t CLAIM you trust someone then NEVER do what they ask

that’s fraudulent faith or mere belief. Which never saved anyone

 

[mailmandan]

Danthemailman, You teach two kinds of faith alone:
1. First faith is alone without obedience. This faith alone cannot save.
2. This also is faith alone. But this faith also without obedience does save. Because supposedly it trusts God.
Your teaching on faith, Danthemailman is never found Biblically. The Bible never defines faith that can save as without obedience(works).
First most obvious reason is, faith itself is a work, John 6:28-29.

Works in James chapter 2 are obeying Gods commandments.
That is the faith that saves us.
Any faith without, the works James is teaching about.
Is a dead faith that has no obedience to God.

Danthemailman you are mistakenly teaching faith that is disobedient saves.
Every time you teach faith apart from obedience(works) saves.

There is no trust in a faith that does not obey, Danthemailman.

A faith that trusts in Jesus cannot be void of obedience!

A trusting faith by nature will have works as James teaches.

There is no such faith that trusts God at the same time lacks obedience(works).

The above quote from you is again, a misunderstanding of what Faith is that saves.

The first definition you give is dead, clearly. Because it has no obedience(works) to God.
The second definition of faith you give is also dead. Because it has no obedience(works).
Since your second definition is dead because it is absent of obedience.
It cannot have trust as you mistakenly claim it has.

James teaches faith that is alone is dead, always!
It cannot be anything but dead.
Your false definition of saving faith is barren of works.

Nowhere does James ever describe faith that is alive as alone ie without obedience to God.

Danthemailman, you are teaching against what James taught on saving faith.

James taught only faith alone is dead, never alive. Never can justify.

James 2:20,
-But do you want to know O, foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Danthemailman you teach faith alone can justify! You are telling James he is wrong!

Faith alone has no trust in God.
How can it?
Faith alone is disobedience.

A person who does not trust his parachute will not obey the command to jump from the plain.

Jesus commands obedience to His gospel. Those who do not trust Jesus will not obey His commandments to be saved,
Mark 16:15-16
-and Jesus said unto them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
-He that believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Danthemailman, you do not trust Jesus in faith only. True faith puts trust in what Jesus says to do.
That doing, is the obedience ie baptism.

The demons have faith alone, James 2:19, they have no trust Jesus will save them.
Likewise you have no trust obeying Jesus' direct commandment to be baptized will save you.

Danthemailman please answer my question.

If faith alone ie absent of all works saves us.

Then by your definition of salvation it must also be true, that one can live the rest of his life saved and never do a work of keeping Jesus' commandments Ever in his life, must still go to heaven, if faith only really saves us!

If you must do one good work ever in your life to be in heaven.
Then, Danthemailman, your faith alone salvation is false!

Your salvation of faith and no works contradicts itself, therefore cannot be Gods teaching on salvation.

We have been over this before and your straw man arguments don't hold water.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Taken]

@PinSeeker @BloodBought 1953 @Taken @mailmandan @Eternally Grateful @JohnPaul @Ezra

So you have the promise of eternal life that cannot be lost huh?

Yes.

What does scripture say?

Inanutshell...
men of the majority population are weak, power sitting men are stronger, evil spirits roaming the earth are stronger, God is Stronger than ALL.

My status is of the general majority population, that places me UNDER, THREE more powerful things than myself.
Not great odds for me.

God, Thee MOST POWERFUL, has Offered me a WAY, To align WITH Him Forever.
BY MY FREEWILL, “IF” I Agree “AND” Submit my Allegiance TO the Lord God Almighty Alone;
He “THEN” WILL BE Faithful and True, BY His Supreme Power TO once and forever, KEEP ME unto Him Alone Forever.

* Scripture (Gods Word) is full of “IF - THEN”... read the if/then’s, learn the if/then’s, freely choose as your own freewill directs you.
* I have already freely chosen, “the if/then”, option for myself.

Well, you can come short of it:

“Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.” (Hebrews 4:1)

Not me. The Option I have chosen, IS Gods Offering OF HIS POWER, over power sitting men, over evil spirit, over all the weak men...

You don’t get it until after you have done the will of God:

SOME MEN, don’t get it...On this forum....Men are DECLARING the choices “THEY HAVE FREELY MADE”:

* Some......declare, they are using their own power, trying, enduring, failing, sinning, trying, keep work-ing, keep fail-ing, keep try-ing, HOPING they will like the outcome.

* Some.....declare, they are aligning with power sitting men, fearing what power sitting men tell them to fear, doing what power sitting men tell them TO DO, Trusting power sitting men, will make PEACE for them, will KEEP their lives SAFE, and HOPE for the outcome of peace and safety.

* Some....declare, they are aligning with the power of Evil, Trickery, Lies, Deceit, as their means to gain their desires. Other peoples, wealth, other peoples efforts, other peoples possessions, and HOPING their Risk of scamming and gain, outweighs the consequence of being discovered and have to start a new scam.

* Some...declare, they recognize where they fall in the line of “status”, as the weakest in the population of the world at large, and have Freely Chosen to “Agree and Commit”, their allegiance, Once and Forever;
to what THEY BELIEVE “IS” the Supreme Power and Authority Over ALL things....The Lord God Almighty.

What SOME MEN, do not understand: IS a Freely made “Agreement and Commitment”....by A man WITH the Lord God Almighty...
IS a permanent, unbreakable, assured, forever Commitment.
That Commitment IS KEPT in TACT....BY the Supreme Power of God Himself.

And to no surprise....the MEN WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT —->(Gods Power ‘IN” them)
Primarily are the men WHO DO NOT HAVE IT.
(Gods Power “IN” them)
Primarily are the same men WHO ADVOCATE AGAINST IT.
(Gods Power “IN” them)

 

[Happy Trails]

Jesus said we should seek the Father's righteousness, not our own. The Father's righteousness is obeying the Law.


Wow —- it just does not get any worse than this...If obedience to the Law could save anyone—- “ Christ died in vain”......
“ Christ is the END of the Law for Righteousness to all that Believe”

Jesus ACTUALLY said that we must “ Do The Will Of His Father”...... what is that “ Will?” To BELIEVE in the One That He sent” ......

Why is everything about "salvation?"

Going to church on Sunday doesn't save anyone.
Being a good person doesn't save anyone.
Putting up a Christmas tree doesn't save anyone.

So, why do ANY of that? If salvation is the ONLY issue, ever, why do ANYTHING that is not part of "getting saved?" That is the argument that is always tossed out when anyone talks about obeying God. If that is going to be the standard, then EVERY activity must be scrutinized under the microscope of "does it save you?"

The purpose of the Law is to be the instructions for walking godly. The instruction is for the people who are ALREADY saved.

Now, I will show you the perversion of your interpretation of Romans 10:4

"End" is telos in Greek. It does NOT mean "termination." It means "objective." The objective of the Law is being like the Messiah. The previous verse says, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

The righteousness of God IS obedience to his instructions. If a person does not have YHVH's instructions, they will make up their OWN righteousness. THAT is "self-righteous." It is NOT the righteousness of God.

The perversion is exposed here:
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

If "end" means termination, then this verse says that your salvation is the termination of your faith. Is salvation the "termination" of your faith, or the "objective" of your faith? Salvation is the objective. Salvation is, seemingly, the yardstick for every thought and action in your world. So, if you are willing to let your faith be terminated, by all means, get saved.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Inanutshell...
men of the majority population are weak, power sitting men are stronger, evil spirits roaming the earth are stronger, God is Stronger than ALL.

 

[ScottA]

This is a generalized explanation that really does not explain each individual verse in context.

Yes, your general terms. But the context is also general given for those times, but also mixed with those for all time...which is why they need to be "rightly divided" as Paul counselled Timothy.

As for the carcasses: It is the world that the saints will devour. The marriage supper of the Lamb is not in Heaven, but it is a battle or a war against this world when Christ comes down and destroys it (with His saints following). The eagles (saints) will be gathered to devour (consume their enemies - metaphorically speaking in that they will be conquered).

It's good that you are able to think out of the box, but you have missed the mark. The carcass is the body of Christ; the eagles are those who pray on her.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We have been over this before and your straw man arguments don't hold water.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

People can’t get out of their own way and just let God save them

 

[Michiah-Imla]

power sitting men are stronger, evil spirits roaming the earth are stronger

“Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.” (1 John 4:4)

God, Thee MOST POWERFUL, has Offered me a WAY, To align WITH Him Forever.

And you can come short of that “way” if you continue in sin.

learn the if/then’s, freely choose as your own freewill directs you.
* I have already freely chosen, “the if/then”, option for myself.

What is this unbiblical babbling?

Not me. The Option I have chosen, IS Gods Offering OF HIS POWER, over power sitting men, over evil spirit, over all the weak men...

Uh huh…

But no power to stop sinning. Ookie dokie.

* Some......declare, they are using their own power, trying, enduring, failing, sinning, trying, keep work-ing, keep fail-ing, keep try-ing, HOPING they will like the outcome.

“Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;” (1 Peter 1:13)

* Some.....declare, they are aligning with power sitting men, fearing what power sitting men

Sir, what have you been reading?

What SOME MEN, do not understand: IS a Freely made “Agreement and Commitment”....by A man WITH the Lord God Almighty...
IS a permanent, unbreakable, assured, forever Commitment.
That Commitment IS KEPT in TACT....BY the Supreme Power of God Himself.

It’s permanent on the the condition of those “IF’s” you said you knew all about which apparently you are not familiar with the ones in the Bible.

 

[ScottA]

Uh, no. That’s actually Jesus.

Matthew 23:11
“But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.”

That is not what I was referring to--because it did not apply to what we were talking, you just tried to use it in vain to justify your position.

I was addressing (correcting) your idea of what you quoted from Paul, which you do not understand.

 

[ScottA]

So you think that the bride of Christ is not in reference to both male and female believers in Jesus Christ?
If so, prove your case with the Bible.

See how you are? I said just the opposite.

The point being that men and women believed for millennia that marriage was only about themselves--to most it was a mystery until it was revealed to them.