A Discussion About Truth

[farouk]

I think the thread has pretty much gone sideways now. I've got some heavy stuff going on at home, anyway.

@Qoheleth Some threads do indeed go on and on in 'stream of consciousness' fashion....

 

[farouk]

And I have a floor to be mopped!

:)

@marks The better the day, the better the deed....and you (and I, just about...) can be thankful that we still have enough cardiovascular fortitude to be able to use a mop, anyway....

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't think God ever intended for us to go on populating the planet until there was inadequate space for enjoyable living, do you?

so you expect at some point that these “immortals” would just stop having sex?

 

[marks]

@marks The better the day, the better the deed....and you (and I, just about...) can be thankful that we still have enough cardiovascular fortitude to be able to use a mop, anyway....

A few years ago, I didn't even have the strength to do that! God is good!!

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

so you expect at some point that these “immortals” would just stop having sex?

I expect that a supreme being of the type we discuss here would have a well-designed plan to facilitate such a potential dilemma.

On second thought:

I think He could just blink or twitch and shut them hormones down without wreckin' anything else, don't you reckon?

As an aside:
Have you ever considered the concept of a divine 'undo' button?
After all, wouldn't linear time be God's plaything, if He so wished?
We tend to think that reality is locked within time... :cool:

 

[bbyrd009]

I expect that a supreme being of the type we discuss here would have a well-designed plan to facilitate such a potential dilemma

i think He prolly already does, yeh; There is only One Immortal…

I think He could just blink or twitch and shut them hormones down without wreckin' anything else, don't you reckon

a la bewitched, huh?
doesnt seem to be how He operates, at least that i can tell

We tend to think that reality is locked within time

well i guess time is pretty subjective anyway, as has already been demonstrated pretty thoroughly

 

[BarneyFife]

a la bewitched, huh?
doesnt seem to be how He operates, at least that i can tell

Would it qualify as hyperbole, figure of speech, maybe?

 

[Brakelite]

then standing there gazing up would make sense right; understand what is being said there imo

And yet Jesus gave several lessons in which the idea of keeping watch for His coming was made prominent, with the idea that if you weren't watching, you would miss it. Like the Jews did the first time.

 

[marks]

I expect that a supreme being of the type we discuss here would have a well-designed plan to facilitate such a potential dilemma.

On second thought:

I think He could just blink or twitch and shut them hormones down without wreckin' anything else, don't you reckon?

However it would work, we can be certain that God can bring good harmonious results in His plans and intentions for man.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

the point being if no one died after procreating the planet would get pretty crowded pretty quick?

If you remember, God’s instructions were to “fill the earth”.....not ‘overfill’ it. So there would have been a point where the earth was comfortably “filled” and perhaps God would then take the procreative drive away from mankind so that having offspring (or what caused it) was no longer a desire in humankind. He is the Creator after all, and has full capacity to do whatever he wishes concerning his creation. The other option I guess would be to make other planets habitable and call for ‘pioneers’ to go there and populate a new world? What is to stop him eventually filling the entire Universe with life if he wants to?

The ‘big picture’ for me is bigger than most people imagine, but the Creator has no limits, and if he desires to do something, we can rest assured that he has everything under control....well thought out and beautifully executed. He gives us knowledge, but only what we need to know, when we need to know it. Perhaps it all starts here, with all contingencies concerning free will exercised and sorted out before the big picture gets bigger. :)

 

[BarneyFife]

However it would work, we can be certain that God can bring good harmonious results in His plans and intentions for man.

Much love!

You can say that again, Brother.

 

[Aunty Jane]

and these scripture!

Lk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This is a parable...not a true story. The players in this parable are representative of people living when Jesus gave it. The rich man pictured the Pharisees, and the beggar pictured the poor spiritually impoverished sinners whom their shepherds neglected and treated with contempt. Their deaths represented a change in status with the preaching of God’s son. The “bosom of Abraham” was a position of favour with God.....the Pharisees lost it, but those who listened to Jesus gained it.
This is nothing to do with literal life after death, (heaven and hell) but how one can experience spiritual life and death by how they worship, and who they listen to.

2 Corinthians 5
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in theheavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. ...

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is the elect, speaking to fellow members of the body of Christ. All the Bible writers were of this body. The NT was written by them, and for them....and by extension the principles of conduct apply to all. The chosen ones (the elect) alone will attain a heavenly resurrection, having experienced an anointing with God’s holy spirit, and being given an inordinate desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord.

This anointing has to override the natural desire in humans to live in paradise, which is where God created us to live. We cannot imagine paradise without our loved ones beside us, but those who are chosen to rule with Christ in heaven are prepared to leave all earthly ties behind, and to go to an entirely new and different realm with a completely new and different body. Those who have a natural desire to live in paradise, usually see it like the garden of Eden.....because that is where our home should have been all along....with the whole earth transformed to be like Eden, with all the creatures that God created to share this planet with us.

Mankind in their sinful condition and under the devil’s rulership, have corrupted any image of paradise that isn’t a commercial investment. People must pay big money to even enjoy it for a short time.

Do you see heaven as being like that? Can you understand why humans flock to paradise locations on earth, even for a little while? We are drawn to those places because that is where God planned for us to live all along.....he never intended for a single human being to die and go somewhere else. The “tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee that no one died. (Genesis 3:22-24)

There is no “heaven or hell” scenario ever mentioned in the Bible because we do not have an immortal soul that lives on somewhere else after death. That is a satanic lie. Death is the opposite of life. The Bible teaches resurrection, not immortality of the soul.

rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Please tell me that you don’t imagine that this is speaking about Mary.......there are no ‘women’ in heaven because spirit beings do not have gender. This is not a literal woman. Females are the carriers of life, not the generators of it. Revelation is presented in signs and symbols, so understanding what the whole of Revelation ch 12 means will show you who the woman really is...and what she gave birth to.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't think God ever intended for us to go on populating the planet until there was inadequate space for enjoyable living, do you?

That’s an interesting point actually......given the places on earth which are uninhabitable at present, imagine if all those places could be turned into arable land like it says in Isaiah’s restoration prophesy....

“The wilderness and the parched land will exult,
And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron.
2 Without fail it will blossom;
It will rejoice and shout for joy.
The glory of Lebʹa·non will be given to it,
The splendor of Carʹmel and of Sharʹon.
They will see the glory of Jehovah, the splendor of our God. . . .
5 At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened,
And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.
6 At that time the lame will leap like the deer,
And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy.
For waters will burst forth in the wilderness,
And streams in the desert plain.
7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool,
And the thirsty ground springs of water.
In the lairs where jackals rested,
There will be green grass and reeds and papyrus.” (Isaiah 35:1-2, 5-7)

Sounds good to me......

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think the thread has pretty much gone sideways now. I've got some heavy stuff going on at home, anyway.

Ask anyone and see if there is a person or family on earth at present who is happy with the way things are, and are not experiencing some kind of “heavy stuff”.....this is the last minutes of the last days.....would we, or should we, expect anything else???? (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

 

[Brakelite]

However it would work, we can be certain that God can bring good harmonious results in His plans and intentions for man.

Much love!

In hindsight we would no doubt agree with Him ... We have a little more difficulty in deciding what He would like to do in the future.

 

[Brakelite]

Not sure where you get that idea, but in the case of Job, satan was hardly humble....

Don't think this is where Qo was going with this. He was talking about when Lucifer... The anointed cherub, decorated with precious stones and beauty surpassing any other creature but God Himself, was encouraged to remain humble through his position in the very presence of God

At Galatians 3:1, Paul was rebuking certain ones in the congregations there for allowing themselves to be influenced by an element of Judaizers among them, Jews who were attempting to establish their own righteousness through the Mosaic arrangement in place of the ‘righteousness due to faith’ provided by the new covenant. (Galatians 2:15- Galatians 3:14; Galatians 4:9-10)

Racially, “the congregations of Galatia” (Galatians 1:2) to whom Paul wrote were a mixture of Jews and non-Jews, the latter being both circumcised proselytes and non-circumcised Gentiles, and no doubt some were of Celtic descent. (Acts 13:14, 43; Galatians 16:1; Galatians 5:2) All together, they were addressed as Galatian Christians because the area in which they lived was called Galatia. The whole tenor of the letter is that Paul was writing to those with whom he was well acquainted in the southern part of this Roman province, not to total strangers in the northern sector, which he apparently never visited.

You are assuming that those who were thus warned of the circumcision issue took no notice of Paul and sent their false gospel everywhere else. The records and historical reports of those churches indicate this was not so. Also, all those churches be their very existence became the enemy to Rome. If they had taken on board the same fake doctrines of Rome such as Sunday sacredness, why were they enemies?

I know this is a real sticking point with SDA's, but just from the Christian scriptures I see absolutely no support for keeping a weekly Sabbath.

The Ten commandments aren't Christian scripture??

Geographically it is impossible to keep the Sabbath for all worshippers around the world on the same day of the week. The international date line presents a challenge because the date line is an imaginary line that runs for the most part through the Pacific Ocean along the 180th meridian. Countries to the west of the date line are one day ahead of those to the east. When Israel was in one geographical location, the keeping of the Sabbath was not difficult, but now that they occupy every land, how is the seventh day Saturday in some parts but Friday in others?

When God spoiled the Sabbath in the beginning with the expectation and retirement that the world be populated, you don't think He was aware He had created a round world?

Jesus held the Sabbath observance

What do you mean... Held the Sabbath observance? What is that?

Sabbath-keeping became an integral part of life for the Israelites.....and for the Jews it still is a very important law....(Deuteronomy 5:12) In Israel, every new multistory building erected since 2001 must have at least one elevator that automatically stops at each floor, so that devout Jews, who observe the Sabbath from Friday evening until Saturday evening, do not have to do the “work” of pressing the buttons in an elevator.

If Jesus were walking in Israel today He'd be as alarmed at the above as He was with the rulers 2000 years ago .

Did the commandment about keeping the Sabbath also come to an end? We believe it did.

In favor of Sunday right?

 

[BarneyFife]

Ask anyone and see if there is a person or family on earth at present who is happy with the way things are, and are not experiencing some kind of “heavy stuff”.....this is the last minutes of the last days.....would we, or should we, expect anything else???? (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

There's heavy stuff and then there's heavy stuff, and if I haven't lived long enough to tell the difference by now, I'm running out of time to figure it out. ;)

 

[theefaith]

This is a parable...not a true story. The players in this parable are representative of people living when Jesus gave it. The rich man pictured the Pharisees, and the beggar pictured the poor spiritually impoverished sinners whom their shepherds neglected and treated with contempt. Their deaths represented a change in status with the preaching of God’s son. The “bosom of Abraham” was a position of favour with God.....the Pharisees lost it, but those who listened to Jesus gained it.
This is nothing to do with literal life after death, (heaven and hell) but how one can experience spiritual life and death by how they worship, and who they listen to.



This is the elect, speaking to fellow members of the body of Christ. All the Bible writers were of this body. The NT was written by them, and for them....and by extension the principles of conduct apply to all. The chosen ones (the elect) alone will attain a heavenly resurrection, having experienced an anointing with God’s holy spirit, and being given an inordinate desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord.

This anointing has to override the natural desire in humans to live in paradise, which is where God created us to live. We cannot imagine paradise without our loved ones beside us, but those who are chosen to rule with Christ in heaven are prepared to leave all earthly ties behind, and to go to an entirely new and different realm with a completely new and different body. Those who have a natural desire to live in paradise, usually see it like the garden of Eden.....because that is where our home should have been all along....with the whole earth transformed to be like Eden, with all the creatures that God created to share this planet with us.

Mankind in their sinful condition and under the devil’s rulership, have corrupted any image of paradise that isn’t a commercial investment. People must pay big money to even enjoy it for a short time.

Do you see heaven as being like that? Can you understand why humans flock to paradise locations on earth, even for a little while? We are drawn to those places because that is where God planned for us to live all along.....he never intended for a single human being to die and go somewhere else. The “tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee that no one died. (Genesis 3:22-24)

There is no “heaven or hell” scenario ever mentioned in the Bible because we do not have an immortal soul that lives on somewhere else after death. That is a satanic lie. Death is the opposite of life. The Bible teaches resurrection, not immortality of the soul.


Please tell me that you don’t imagine that this is speaking about Mary.......there are no ‘women’ in heaven because spirit beings do not have gender. This is not a literal woman. Females are the carriers of life, not the generators of it. Revelation is presented in signs and symbols, so understanding what the whole of Revelation ch 12 means will show you who the woman really is...and what she gave birth to.

Is this a literal person?

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

is this a literal person?

rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

2 Maccabees 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesomethought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

the promised land was a type of heaven!
The bondage down in Egypt was a type of purgatory!

how can we have eternal life in Christ without an immortal soul?

Mk 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

the immortal soul!

Matt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

world to come????

the purpose of a parable is to convey a truth!

 

[bbyrd009]

Would it qualify as hyperbole, figure of speech, maybe?

well could be i guess, considering that time is not a factor to Yah?

 

[bbyrd009]

And yet Jesus gave several lessons in which the idea of keeping watch for His coming was made prominent, with the idea that if you weren't watching, you would miss it. Like the Jews did the first time.

sure; Bible language is often ambiguous—on purpose, i think—and more than one interp is often possible, so i would say that any interp one has developed should agree across all Scripture, and if it doesnt, then i would be suspicious tho