Was Jesus Eternally Tormented?

[MatthewG]

If the wages of sin is death...
and "death" = "eternal torment"...
what would Jesus have to do to take our place and pay our penalty for sin?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

The souls that were in paradise and those in prison all had souls that lived in Sheol. Jesus describes the place very well, with the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.


“Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him would not be lost but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭18‬ ‭ERV‬‬

It’s odd what Jesus says here God sent his son into the world He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through Him (The Son), I believe the son suffered the wrath of sin during his judgment, his scoffing in court, and being judged by Israel to be crucified - being handed over by the Romans and put on a cross to die.

A brutal death, he suffered which to me was significant of the hatred towards God; and not wanting anything to do with the one who desired to heal them and help them if they were willing to turn to Him. (Matthew 26-27).

Something interesting here is a man who became a disciple of Christ put him in a tomb the man made for himself to borrow; as the man who came to get Jesus body believed that God would raise it up again to signfy that life after death is true; and the place where people being going to Sheol; eventually is done away with.

That's right...Jesus would have to be eternally tormented. Is He presently suffering eternal torment?

You know thinking of this, you make me think of the flesh of the Lord. Who’s suffered with temptations from the devil, even being offered the whole world if Jesus would bow his knee, he surely was tempted but refrained from falling in the Garden; saying not my will Father but your will be done; and I believe this was the cup of sin or the that Jesus would become the sin offering for the world which because of him and the Jews we have this good news that there is more in this life than just psychical.

No, He didn't suffer "eternal torment" - He suffered death...which is exactly what Scripture says is the wages of sin.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

And because the Father knew He was not guilty of sin, He was able to raise Jesus up after Jesus suffered death,

“From this time on we don’t think of anyone as the world thinks of people. It is true that in the past we thought of Christ as the world thinks. But we don’t think that way now. When anyone is in Christ, it is a whole new world. The old things are gone; suddenly, everything is new! All this is from God. Through Christ, God made peace between himself and us. And God gave us the work of bringing people into peace with him. I mean that God was in Christ, making peace between the world and himself. In Christ, God did not hold people guilty for their sins. And he gave us this message of peace to tell people. So we have been sent to speak for Christ. It is like God is calling to people through us. We speak for Christ when we beg you to be at peace with God. Christ had no sin, but God made him become sin so that in Christ we could be right with God.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭16‬-‭21‬ ‭ERV‬‬

2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ had no sin, but God made him become sin so that in Christ we could be right with God. | Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) | Download The Bible App Now

Christ had no sin, but God made him become sin so that in Christ we could be right with God.

bible.com

unlike the impenitent wicked who deserve the death they will die which is the Second Death, an eternal death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.

I’m no so sure this is true.

 

[The Learner]

But back to phoneman's original question, which everyone seems to want to avoid. Is Jesus suffering eternally? If not, what are the implications for the atonement?

Jesus went to the paradise side of the grave according to Peter, preaching the good news to those there.
The dead are alive like we are on earth. They sleep and wake up. Otherwise, how would the dude on the cross know he was in Paradise that same day?

Isaiah 14
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.

A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:

The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.

 

[The Learner]

At the resurrection at the great white throne final judgement, all the dead are resurrected, meaning to put a spirit, soul, back into a body.
They are judged and if their names are not found in the book of life, (they won't be as the believers went to be with Christ in heaven at their deaths, but God is fair). These people with a resurrected body, the angels then cast into hell- the lake of fire are all combined and they are destroyed, experience everlasting fire in some way, a very unpleasant experience for sure, worse than the hell they came out from earlier.


All these dead had no part in the first resurrection which is only for the holy saved people of God.
There is a resurrection of the just, and a resurrection of the wicked.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

It makes sense then when Jesus says God will destroy both body and soul in hell.

Rev 20

The Judgment of the Dead​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

AMPC
Having [the same] hope in God which these themselves hold and look for, that there is to be a resurrection both of the righteous and the unrighteous (the just and the unjust).

CEV
I am just as sure as these people are that God will raise from death everyone, good or evil.

ERV
I have the same hope in God that these Jews have—the hope that all people, good and bad, will be raised from death.

EXB
I have the same hope in God that they ·have [accept]—the hope that all people, ·good and bad [righteous and unrighteous], will surely be ·raised from the dead [resurrected; C the righteous to salvation, the wicked for judgment; Is. 26:19; Dan. 12:2].

PHILLIPS
While Tertullus was speaking the Jews kept joining in, asserting that these were the facts. Then Paul, at a nod from the governor made his reply: “I am well aware that you have been governor of this nation for many years, and I can therefore make my defence with every confidence. You can easily verify the fact that it is not more than twelve days ago that I went up to worship at Jerusalem. I was never found either arguing with anyone in the Temple or gathering a crowd, either in the synagogues or in the open air. These men are quite unable to prove the charges they are now making against me. I will freely admit to you, however, that I do worship the God of our fathers according to the Way which they call a heresy, although in fact I believe in the scriptural authority of both the Law and the Prophets. I have the same hope in God which they themselves hold, that there is to be a resurrection of both good men and bad. With this hope before me I do my utmost to live my whole life with a clear conscience before God and man.

NCV
I have the same hope in God that they have—the hope that all people, good and bad, will surely be raised from the dead.

Matthew 25:31-46
English Standard Version
The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Two resurrections is not consistent with those texts.

both
/bōTH/
Learn to pronounce
predeterminer · determiner · pronoun
used to refer to two people or things, regarded and identified together.
"both his parents indulged him"
adverb
used before the first of two alternatives to emphasize that the statement being made applies to each (the other alternative being introduced by “and”).
"it has won favor with both young and old"

 

[The Learner]

The first resurrection is when believers get their new body.
The first resurrection is for the righteous who God has justified

The rest of the dead God raises up at the final judgement.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I do not see a gap in Heb 9:27. Where else do you see a 1,000 year gap in Scripture, Brother, Friend? I am open to correction.

Hebrews 9:27
English Standard Version
27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

 

[The Learner]

The order of resurrection
First Christ
Second those who are Christ's at His second appearing.
Third then comes the end, known as the final judgement.

Refer to Revelation 20 as confirmation of this

1 Corinthians 15

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

How do these texts fit in?

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Mark 12:36
David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.”’

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Mark 16:19
So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Luke 20:42
For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 22:69
But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Acts 2:33
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us

Ephesians 1:20
that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 3:1
Put On the New Self
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Hebrews 1:13
And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

1 Corinthians 15:28
Verse Concepts
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Source: 9 Bible verses about The Submission Of Christ

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus went to the paradise side of the grave according to Peter, preaching the good news to those there.

That passage of scripture from Peter had been referred to several times over the course of this thread, being used to "prove" Jesus went to either paradise or hell, or the paradise side of hell, whatever that means. First, as far as I'm concerned, paradise isn't in hell, but in heaven, and second, Jesus didn't go there the day He died, therefore neither did the thief.
See Revelation 2:7; John 20:17.



The verses from Peter are among the chief verses from which people have devised the idea that Jesus preached to people in hell. I would ask these questions however in order to direct perhaps a closer reading of the passage at hand... First, answer this...
By whose power did they peach, and when did the prophets of old warn Israel and preach righteousness? The answer is found in Peter also...

Now to Peter's verses...
Note first...KJV 2 Peter 2:4-5
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

KJV 1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

KJV 1 Peter 1:10-11
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

KJV 1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.





By what power was the preaching done?
At what time was the preaching done?
And through whom was the preaching done?

 

[Brakelite]

Please allow me to offer my understanding of the above.
Jesus was quickened by the Spirit, by which also he preached to...
The spirits in prison... Those in the prison house of sin.
When? In the days of Noah.
Who did the actual preaching? Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and filled with the spirit of Christ.
Not that complicated when understood within the framework and context of all of scripture.

 

[Brakelite]

The order of resurrection
First Christ
Second those who are Christ's at His second appearing.
Third then comes the end, known as the final judgement.

Refer to Revelation 20 as confirmation of this

1 Corinthians 15

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

On this I believe you and I are close...
There's a resurrection from the grave for sinners and redeemed. For the redeemed the Resurrection takes place at the second coming. There was no gnashing of teeth for them in the grave.
For sinners, their Resurrection takes place at the end of the millennium...
KJV Revelation 20:5
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

...at which time they face their Judge, who is fair and just and reveals to them precisely why they stand condemned. Then, and only then, will they start to fear and quake because then they shall know their fate.

KJV Revelation 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Then they shall wail and weep and gnash their teeth while suffering in the fire until they are destroyed. Their suffering will be just and fully commensurate with their evil works. Their sin. Children who in ignorance sinned little, will suffer little. Those who fully and with determination inflicted pain and suffering upon others for no cause, shall suffer greatly and for a longer time. But in the end, all sinners will cease to be. Then the new earth will be created upon the ashes of the old.
KJV Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Earburner]

Please allow me to offer my understanding of the above.
Jesus was quickened by the Spirit, by which also he preached to...
The spirits in prison... Those in the prison house of sin.
When? In the days of Noah.
Who did the actual preaching? Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and filled with the spirit of Christ.
Not that complicated when understood within the framework and context of all of scripture.

Brakelite, Thank you for reaffirming and confirming my same thoughts, of which I recently posted here.
Maybe the facts of the Lord's truth will sink into those who have swallowed "church-ianity's" religious regurgitated slop.

 

[Taken]

I

I agree, they have not yet ceased to exist. An individual is not yet destroyed utterly until the lake of fire. Meanwhile we sleep, until one or other of the 2 resurrections.

Meanwhile “we” sleep, is incomplete.
SLEEP is a term meaning resting of the BODY.
SLEEP applied to ANY BODY, (alive or Dead) indicates that BODY that BODY, shall Be RAISED UP.

However the term “we” sleep, (REST), does not ALWAYS apply to a mans SOUL, (in or out) of the Body.

A “SAVED” Living soul, IN a Living body, By the act of Gods SAVING that soul, is Given, Peace/Rest....YET, BECAUSE it is still “in” a natural living BODY....CAN AT TIMES, have conflict, with the THOUGHTS and ACTS of natural mind of the natural body....
* There is a WARNING in Scripture “for man to work out his Salvation”...
* There is TEACHING in Scripture “for man to recognize and continue recognizing the Peace/Rest good thoughts of his soul, TO SUPERSEDE, devious, wicked, underhanded thoughts of his Natural Mind”.
* In a nutshell, that is a Living man’s DOING a Type of Works, in the man himself...MAKING his own MIND...in the Likeness of Christ Jesus...
* Called Having a MIND “LIKE” Christ Jesus.

A “SAVED” Living soul, Departed out of a Dead BODY, “IS” thereafter “ALWAYS” at peace/rest...”IN” Heaven “WITH Gods comfort, beauty, light, glory.”

An “UNSAVED” Living soul, Departed out of a DEAD BODY, “IS” thereafter
“NOT” at peace/rest....that “living soul “ is “IN” Hell “WITHOUT God, WITHOUT Gods peace/rest/comfort/beauty/light/glory.”

Dead Body’s “know” nothing.
All Living souls OF Dead Body’s depart out of the Dead Body’s.
Departed “saved” Living souls ARE “WITH” God, in heaven, in comfort.
Departed “unsaved” Living souls ARE “WITHOUT” God, in hell, in duress.

ANY TIME God desires (according to Gods Will and Pleasure), God CAN return (re-IMPART) a Living soul INTO a DEAD BODY, and that BODY will revive, rise up Alive, by the Power of Gods Breath (Life), Being IMPARTED into that Body.

Scriptural “case” texts, reveal...KNOWLEDGE;
1) Cases of men bodily DYING...and moments, even days, after the Body is Dead, their Soul Departed, OF their departed soul being RETURNED to their Body, and their ...... Blood LIfe of their body resumes....and Gods Breath of Life in their soul life returns to their Body.
....
2) There are Similar (minutes/hours) of text cases in reports, outside of Scripture, of the same.
...
3) KNOWLEDGE revealed IN Scripture, informs us, God has a DEADLINE, whereby a man RECEIVING Salvation of his Living soul, SHALL CEASE, at a specific Time, unknown to manKind.
...
4) KNOWLEDGE revealed IN Scripture, informs us,
ALL Living souls SHALL return to ALL Dead Body’s and ALL Dead Body’s SHALL BE RAISED UP....VOID of their Blood Life to resume...
...
5) ALL body’s raised UP...(by the Power of (Gods Life) in their Living soul, and that Living soul, being RE-IMPARTED to their dead body.
...
6) ALL such raised UP body’s SHALL “SEE” Christ Jesus....BELIEVE...and Worship (Bow down) Before Him.
(Which then AT THAT TIME, Prophecy is fulfilled, that ALL shall Believe and Worship Him.)
...
7) Judgement shall commence...OF the QUICK and the DEAD...book(S) of Evidence opened...Sentencing shall commence according to the Evidence IN the book(S).
...
8) Every man IS Judged and Rewarded “according to his Works”.
... The QUICK...”Believed, while alive in their natural Blood Life, Confessed Heartful Belief, while alive in their natural Blood Life, Maybe or Maybe not did charity, helping works toward other men (and gave God the glory/credit), Became Soul saved, Willingly gave their bodily life unto Death (for their love of God) and received God Seed (rebirthing their natural Spirit into a spiritual spirit...called quickened/born again.)
* They shall receive their rewards.../crowns.
9)
....The DEAD...”Rejected God” while bodily alive in their Blood Life; Soul, not Saved, Spirit not Quickened; ——> They receive a JUST and MERCIFUL sentence.
Their BODY...void of its Blood Life.
Gods Breath of LIFE in their soul, Returns to God.
Their natural Spirit, (never quickened born again) is VOID of everlasting Life...is DEAD with their mortal Blood life.
...The Lifeless Body and Lifeless Soul...DESTROYED.
...Justice Served...(rejected God) they chose to be WITHOUT God...they get what they chose.
...Mercy Given...(rejected God) body, soul, spirit, VOID of LIFE...(they feel no pain, suffering, are Destroyed and Remembered no more.)

* AND FYI...a mans “CONFLICT” between his heart, soul, and carnal minds THOUGHTS, “are” a mans “inner” conflict. That which God Himself “offers” the “relief and cure”....for the mans heart, soul, mind to BECOME “one” WITH God...”by, through, of HIS POWER”.
* MEN...teach, promote, advocate, by, through, of sciences and pharmakia...a mans “inner conflict”, (anxiety, bipolar, ie scientific names)...are soothed, relieved, cured by, through, of lab created synthetic and often poisonous organ harming chemical compounds.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Scott Downey]

Meanwhile “we” sleep, is incomplete.
SLEEP is a term meaning resting of the BODY.
SLEEP applied to ANY BODY, (alive or Dead) indicates that BODY that BODY, shall Be RAISED UP.

However the term “we” sleep, (REST), does not ALWAYS apply to a mans SOUL, (in or out) of the Body.

A “SAVED” Living soul, IN a Living body, By the act of Gods SAVING that soul, is Given, Peace/Rest....YET, BECAUSE it is still “in” a natural living BODY....CAN AT TIMES, have conflict, with the THOUGHTS and ACTS of natural mind of the natural body....
* There is a WARNING in Scripture “for man to work out his Salvation”...
* There is TEACHING in Scripture “for man to recognize and continue recognizing the Peace/Rest good thoughts of his soul, TO SUPERSEDE, devious, wicked, underhanded thoughts of his Natural Mind”.
* In a nutshell, that is a Living man’s DOING a Type of Works, in the man himself...MAKING his own MIND...in the Likeness of Christ Jesus...
* Called Having a MIND “LIKE” Christ Jesus.

A “SAVED” Living soul, Departed out of a Dead BODY, “IS” thereafter “ALWAYS” at peace/rest...”IN” Heaven “WITH Gods comfort, beauty, light, glory.”

An “UNSAVED” Living soul, Departed out of a DEAD BODY, “IS” thereafter
“NOT” at peace/rest....that “living soul “ is “IN” Hell “WITHOUT God, WITHOUT Gods peace/rest/comfort/beauty/light/glory.”

Dead Body’s “know” nothing.
All Living souls OF Dead Body’s depart out of the Dead Body’s.
Departed “saved” Living souls ARE “WITH” God, in heaven, in comfort.
Departed “unsaved” Living souls ARE “WITHOUT” God, in hell, in duress.

ANY TIME God desires (according to Gods Will and Pleasure), God CAN return (re-IMPART) a Living soul INTO a DEAD BODY, and that BODY will revive, rise up Alive, by the Power of Gods Breath (Life), Being IMPARTED into that Body.

Scriptural “case” texts, reveal...KNOWLEDGE;
1) Cases of men bodily DYING...and moments, even days, after the Body is Dead, their Soul Departed, OF their departed soul being RETURNED to their Body, and their ...... Blood LIfe of their body resumes....and Gods Breath of Life in their soul life returns to their Body.
....
2) There are Similar (minutes/hours) of text cases in reports, outside of Scripture, of the same.
...
3) KNOWLEDGE revealed IN Scripture, informs us, God has a DEADLINE, whereby a man RECEIVING Salvation of his Living soul, SHALL CEASE, at a specific Time, unknown to manKind.
...
4) KNOWLEDGE revealed IN Scripture, informs us,
ALL Living souls SHALL return to ALL Dead Body’s and ALL Dead Body’s SHALL BE RAISED UP....VOID of their Blood Life to resume...
...
5) ALL body’s raised UP...(by the Power of (Gods Life) in their Living soul, and that Living soul, being RE-IMPARTED to their dead body.
...
6) ALL such raised UP body’s SHALL “SEE” Christ Jesus....BELIEVE...and Worship (Bow down) Before Him.
(Which then AT THAT TIME, Prophecy is fulfilled, that ALL shall Believe and Worship Him.)
...
7) Judgement shall commence...OF the QUICK and the DEAD...book(S) of Evidence opened...Sentencing shall commence according to the Evidence IN the book(S).
...
8) Every man IS Judged and Rewarded “according to his Works”.
... The QUICK...”Believed, while alive in their natural Blood Life, Confessed Heartful Belief, while alive in their natural Blood Life, Maybe or Maybe not did charity, helping works toward other men (and gave God the glory/credit), Became Soul saved, Willingly gave their bodily life unto Death (for their love of God) and received God Seed (rebirthing their natural Spirit into a spiritual spirit...called quickened/born again.)
* They shall receive their rewards.../crowns.
9)
....The DEAD...”Rejected God” while bodily alive in their Blood Life; Soul, not Saved, Spirit not Quickened; ——> They receive a JUST and MERCIFUL sentence.
Their BODY...void of its Blood Life.
Gods Breath of LIFE in their soul, Returns to God.
Their natural Spirit, (never quickened born again) is VOID of everlasting Life...is DEAD with their mortal Blood life.
...The Lifeless Body and Lifeless Soul...DESTROYED.
...Justice Served...(rejected God) they chose to be WITHOUT God...they get what they chose.
...Mercy Given...(rejected God) body, soul, spirit, VOID of LIFE...(they feel no pain, suffering, are Destroyed and Remembered no more.)

* AND FYI...a mans “CONFLICT” between his heart, soul, and carnal minds THOUGHTS, “are” a mans “inner” conflict. That which God Himself “offers” the “relief and cure”....for the mans heart, soul, mind to BECOME “one” WITH God...”by, through, of HIS POWER”.
* MEN...teach, promote, advocate, by, through, of sciences and pharmakia...a mans “inner conflict”, (anxiety, bipolar, ie scientific names)...are soothed, relieved, cured by, through, of lab created synthetic and often poisonous organ harming chemical compounds.

Glory to God,
Taken

yes sleep has to do with the body only, not the soul or spirit.
I realize for some this is hard to understand, however as 2 Cor 5:1-9 says, when we die are present with the Lord.

And Hebrews 12 says the same thing.
1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the [a]author and [b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


At death the body is said to sleep.
Awake has to do with becoming alive.

John 11:11
These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

1 Thessalonians 5:10
who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Ephesians 5:14
Therefore He says: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”

This here also proves that after death of the body, the soul is NOT DEAD.
39 When He came in, He said to them, “Why make this commotion and weep? The child is not dead, but sleeping.”

Mark 5
22 And behold, one of the rulers of the synagogue came, Jairus by name. And when he saw Him, he fell at His feet 23 and begged Him earnestly, saying, “My little daughter lies at the point of death. Come and lay Your hands on her, that she may be healed, and she will live.” 24 So Jesus went with him, and a great multitude followed Him and thronged Him.

35 While He was still speaking, some came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house who said, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?”

36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, He said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not be afraid; only believe.” 37 And He permitted no one to follow Him except Peter, James, and John the brother of James. 38 Then He came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and saw [g]a tumult and those who wept and wailed loudly. 39 When He came in, He said to them, “Why make this commotion and weep? The child is not dead, but sleeping.”

40 And they ridiculed Him. But when He had put them all outside, He took the father and the mother of the child, and those who were with Him, and entered where the child was lying. 41 Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, “Talitha, cumi,” which is translated, “Little girl, I say to you, arise.” 42 Immediately the girl arose and walked, for she was twelve years of age. And they were overcome with great amazement. 43 But He commanded them strictly that no one should know it, and said that something should be given her to eat.

 

[Brakelite]

Meanwhile “we” sleep, is incomplete.
SLEEP is a term meaning resting of the BODY.
SLEEP applied to ANY BODY, (alive or Dead) indicates that BODY that BODY, shall Be RAISED UP.

However the term “we” sleep, (REST), does not ALWAYS apply to a mans SOUL, (in or out) of the Body.

A “SAVED” Living soul, IN a Living body, By the act of Gods SAVING that soul, is Given, Peace/Rest....YET, BECAUSE it is still “in” a natural living BODY....CAN AT TIMES, have conflict, with the THOUGHTS and ACTS of natural mind of the natural body....
* There is a WARNING in Scripture “for man to work out his Salvation”...
* There is TEACHING in Scripture “for man to recognize and continue recognizing the Peace/Rest good thoughts of his soul, TO SUPERSEDE, devious, wicked, underhanded thoughts of his Natural Mind”.
* In a nutshell, that is a Living man’s DOING a Type of Works, in the man himself...MAKING his own MIND...in the Likeness of Christ Jesus...
* Called Having a MIND “LIKE” Christ Jesus.

A “SAVED” Living soul, Departed out of a Dead BODY, “IS” thereafter “ALWAYS” at peace/rest...”IN” Heaven “WITH Gods comfort, beauty, light, glory.”

An “UNSAVED” Living soul, Departed out of a DEAD BODY, “IS” thereafter
“NOT” at peace/rest....that “living soul “ is “IN” Hell “WITHOUT God, WITHOUT Gods peace/rest/comfort/beauty/light/glory.”

Dead Body’s “know” nothing.
All Living souls OF Dead Body’s depart out of the Dead Body’s.
Departed “saved” Living souls ARE “WITH” God, in heaven, in comfort.
Departed “unsaved” Living souls ARE “WITHOUT” God, in hell, in duress.

ANY TIME God desires (according to Gods Will and Pleasure), God CAN return (re-IMPART) a Living soul INTO a DEAD BODY, and that BODY will revive, rise up Alive, by the Power of Gods Breath (Life), Being IMPARTED into that Body.

Scriptural “case” texts, reveal...KNOWLEDGE;
1) Cases of men bodily DYING...and moments, even days, after the Body is Dead, their Soul Departed, OF their departed soul being RETURNED to their Body, and their ...... Blood LIfe of their body resumes....and Gods Breath of Life in their soul life returns to their Body.
....
2) There are Similar (minutes/hours) of text cases in reports, outside of Scripture, of the same.
...
3) KNOWLEDGE revealed IN Scripture, informs us, God has a DEADLINE, whereby a man RECEIVING Salvation of his Living soul, SHALL CEASE, at a specific Time, unknown to manKind.
...
4) KNOWLEDGE revealed IN Scripture, informs us,
ALL Living souls SHALL return to ALL Dead Body’s and ALL Dead Body’s SHALL BE RAISED UP....VOID of their Blood Life to resume...
...
5) ALL body’s raised UP...(by the Power of (Gods Life) in their Living soul, and that Living soul, being RE-IMPARTED to their dead body.
...
6) ALL such raised UP body’s SHALL “SEE” Christ Jesus....BELIEVE...and Worship (Bow down) Before Him.
(Which then AT THAT TIME, Prophecy is fulfilled, that ALL shall Believe and Worship Him.)
...
7) Judgement shall commence...OF the QUICK and the DEAD...book(S) of Evidence opened...Sentencing shall commence according to the Evidence IN the book(S).
...
8) Every man IS Judged and Rewarded “according to his Works”.
... The QUICK...”Believed, while alive in their natural Blood Life, Confessed Heartful Belief, while alive in their natural Blood Life, Maybe or Maybe not did charity, helping works toward other men (and gave God the glory/credit), Became Soul saved, Willingly gave their bodily life unto Death (for their love of God) and received God Seed (rebirthing their natural Spirit into a spiritual spirit...called quickened/born again.)
* They shall receive their rewards.../crowns.
9)
....The DEAD...”Rejected God” while bodily alive in their Blood Life; Soul, not Saved, Spirit not Quickened; ——> They receive a JUST and MERCIFUL sentence.
Their BODY...void of its Blood Life.
Gods Breath of LIFE in their soul, Returns to God.
Their natural Spirit, (never quickened born again) is VOID of everlasting Life...is DEAD with their mortal Blood life.
...The Lifeless Body and Lifeless Soul...DESTROYED.
...Justice Served...(rejected God) they chose to be WITHOUT God...they get what they chose.
...Mercy Given...(rejected God) body, soul, spirit, VOID of LIFE...(they feel no pain, suffering, are Destroyed and Remembered no more.)

* AND FYI...a mans “CONFLICT” between his heart, soul, and carnal minds THOUGHTS, “are” a mans “inner” conflict. That which God Himself “offers” the “relief and cure”....for the mans heart, soul, mind to BECOME “one” WITH God...”by, through, of HIS POWER”.
* MEN...teach, promote, advocate, by, through, of sciences and pharmakia...a mans “inner conflict”, (anxiety, bipolar, ie scientific names)...are soothed, relieved, cured by, through, of lab created synthetic and often poisonous organ harming chemical compounds.

Glory to God,
Taken

Your wrote a great deal there, yet without any scriptural support. Not surprising really considering there isn't any mention of sleep and heaven in the same sentence. "Sleeping in Jesus" is merely a human construct, a euphemism for dead. In reality, all that remains of us in death is the memory of us in others. And then they die, and after a few short generations there is none, not one, who remembers us... Except Jesus. He doesn't forget. Our names are written. Our destiny sure. Our awakening inevitable... On the last day... When they that sleep in the dust of the earth hear that trumpet, and the voice of the archangel wakes us to a new beginning. How I look forward to walking up in the middle of a graveyard and rising to meet Jesus with other like minced souls. Sadly, a minority, but exciting nevertheless. That's our hope. That's the Christian hope. Not to go to heaven or anywhere else at death... But rather what the apostles taught.
A resurrection.

 

[MatthewG]

My belief tends to lead me to believe everyone went to hell at one point and time. Even JESUS when he died on the cross (Matthew 27:45-54), because he was yet to be resurrected (Matthew 28:6) and show that there will be more after this life. He was promised to be with the person on the cross (Luke 23:43), in Paradise the same day. That would be sheol that had two compartments - of souls that have not been resurrected (see: Luke 16:19-31). Jesus promised to be as Jonah being three days and three nights in the whale (Matthew 12:40) was in Paradise as the soul of the Word of God - that was made flesh. Traveled down from Paradise to the prison part of Sheol, and preached a message to those in prison (1 Peter 3:15-21), until the three days were up and Jesus was raised again from the dead by God (Mark 16:5-7). Eventually the place of Sheol was dumped out (Revelation 20:13-14), and done away with leaving two places for people to live when they die now today. Which is either inside of the Kingdom with God, by doing the commandments (Revelation 22:14); they may have the right to the tree of life, and those who are outside the city gates that never close (Revelation 22:15).

Really interesting things here.

 

[Taken]

Brakelite, Thank you for reaffirming and confirming my same thoughts, of which I recently posted here.
Maybe the facts of the Lord's truth will sink into those who have swallowed "church-ianity's" religious regurgitated slop.

IF you believe Christ Jesus IS God...do you as well Believe Christ Jesus IS:
Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient ?

Historically God has made His Presence known to man-KIND, BY WHAT He is Called, and BY WHAT He is Called has revealed intent of His Works.

The term “God” is general.
The terms “LORD, Lord, I AM, Yahweh, Jesus, Christ, Savior, etc. are specific and give us notice to “specific” intents and works of God.

The “Word of God” in Heaven, was sent forth out Gods mouth.
The “Word of God” was sent forth to Earth, in the likeness as a Jewish man.
The “Word of God” was given a name; JESUS.
Jesus, it was revealed “WOULD Be called; The Son of God.
“God Announced” the day, God called Jesus, Gods begotten Son.
It’s a Paradox which requires Understanding.
God is without Beginning.
God expressed in Great Detail, “KINDS of things ONLY reproduce their SAME KIND of things”.
God DOES NOT “reproduce” offspring, which by default, an OFFSPRING, “HAS a beginning”.
God DID NOT “reproduce an offspring...ie JESUS”....
God SENT His WORD forth OUT of His MOUTH, prepared His Word, a Visible (for earthly mens EYES to see) BODY, and CALLED that BODY, which earthly men COULD SEE.... “The Son of Man.”
It was FORETOLD...THAT Son of Man, WOULD BE called; “the Son of God”.
Some 30 years LATER...God announced...THAT day, JESUS is Gods Begotten SON.
Thereafter, it was Suitable, for earthly men to ALSO call that BODY, the Name given that Body.....Jesus, the Son of God.
Further revealing, that that humbled, revealed Word of God, called Jesus, called the Son of Man....thereafter called the Son of God......IS the Christ Messiah, which God Promised, (prophecy fulfilled).
Further revealing, the Christ....IS the Wisdom, the Power, the Spirit, the Seed “OF God”....IS in all essence...GOD walking the Earth WITH earthly men....and FIRST hand face to face, teaching and preaching to manKIND.
Men KILLED His prepared BODY....but men DID NOT KILL His Soul or Spirit.

WHAT earthly men SAW, was a prepared BODY.
Men did NOT SEE His Soul or His Spirit.
Men DID SEE the “effects” of His Soul and His Spirit, by, through, of...”results” of His “works”.

POINT BEING...God IS HOLY, invisible to the eyes of unholy Earthly men.
YET, by, through, of Gods Power, He CAN APPEAR to mankind’s eyes, IN a FASHION human mens eyes CAN SEE, and a man CAN KNOW, they ARE IN the presence OF God Himself.

Human men SAW, God in the (Bodily) FASHION of a specific man, OF the Race of men Called JEWS, ie men naturally born of the specific ISRAEL Tribe of Judah, of specific Jews of the Tribe of Judah, that which were FAITHFUL Jews, Descended from the House of king David.
THAT express FASHION, by LAW of God and Men, ENTITLED JESUS, inheritance RIGHTS, TO: Abrahams Promised Land and king David’s everlasting Throne.
Prophecy fulfilled...FOR WHEN “the Son of Man” RETURNS...His inheritance to Abraham’s promised Land and His inheritance to king David’s Throne IS ALREADY ESTABLISHED for Him to CLAIM, SIT, RULE over HIS kingdom with Absolute Power and Authority.

POINT BEING... mankind was SENT, the Word of God, in the Likeness, Fashion AS A “visible Earthly men”, CALLED the “Son of Man”.
POINT BEING....mankind IS WAITING for the “VISIBLE to earthly mens eyes”............the RETURN of the “Son of Man”.

Gods Promise IS........the Son of Man.......SHALL RETURN.
All Eyes SHALL LOOK UP and SEE Him.
Where IS He....? Sitting on a White cloud
What will He be DOING...? REAPING the Earth.
(Rev 14: 14,15,16)

Following Scripture...WHEN the Son of Man “was sent to earth”, He was “Sent Humbled”....NOT with HIS “Reputation”....ie .His “POWER” to RULE and JUDGE.
WHEN the Son of Man ... “RETURNS to Earth...He RETURNS “WITH” His Reputation......WITH HIS POWER to “RULE and JUDGE”.

BEFORE the Son of Man, RETURNS to Earth, WITH His “reputation”...Power TO rule His Kingdom (His inheritance of Abraham’s promised Land and inheritance of king David’s Throne) and Authority to JUDGE)...........

The “Lord” descends from the high Heavens to the lower Heavens (clouds)...and summons UP Christ’s Church.

The “Lamb of God” in Heaven Opens the 7 Seals of the Book of Seals., Which unleashes one by one as each seal is broken, Power and Authority unto Satan and his followers of fallen angels, to reek havoc upon inhabitants upon the face of the Earth.

Two Sanctified Witnesses with Gods Word in their mouths are sent to Jerusalem, with Power (to ward off any harm to them), to openly speak Gods Word IN Jerusalem to any and all listeners, FOR 3.5 years, and THEN their power ceases, and they are bodily murdered.

A “Lamb of God“ WITH 12,000 Sanctified virgin men of each of the 12 tribes of Israel “gather on Mt.Zion” ... and BY request and notice to flee to Mt Zion, such notice is given to ALL men of the Tribes of Israel....and a GREAT revival ensues...of ALL the tribes of Israel being Taught the Word of God....BY their OWN kinsmen...and Becoming CONVERTED, “IN” Christ Jesus. 3.5 years

* These LAST DAYS....are Turmoil, Chaos, Tribulations “ALLOWED By God and SENT From God”...Satan and Fallen angels...allowed to influence, threaten, and kill men....siamotainously God sending the Lord to gather Christ’s Church, the Witness, Sanctified men, A Lamb....and ultimately A Single Holy Angel and with the Gospel of Jesus Christ in his mouth, that that Angel Speaks to the Whole World....that “IF” men will Confess Belief IN the Lord God and willingly Defy Satan and willingly give their BODY’s unto DEATH...FOR the Lord God..........they WILL BE SAVED....and then sent...“The Son of Man”....Sent to reap.

* God IS Just and Merciful. While He foretells Great Tribulation and Destruction IS coming Again....Great Tribulation and Destruction comparable to His First Great Tribulation and Destruction....THE SAME is Gods INTENT....as Gods LAST Great Tribulation and Destruction.
To...SAVE and Remove FROM the Tribulation and Destruction ANY and ALL of mankind, WHOSE true allegiance IS “WITH” God....and Ultimately DESTROY ANY and ALL of mankind, WHOSE true allegiance IS “AGAINST” God.....
* The LAST Great Tribulation and Destruction....IS that...THE LAST...
Thereafter ALL is MADE anew...and as it is IN Heaven, so shall it be ON Earth.

Meantime...pay attention, to WHO called by what “name, title”, HAS Been ON Earth, and RETURNS to earth WHEN.

IF you are SAVED, your ears can Hear the Lord’s voice “summoning the gathering of Christ’s Church”, escaping the Wrath and end days tribulations.
IF you are SAVED, (once summoned and gathered together with all of Christ’s Church...Where-ever the Lord goes, you go with Him.)
IF you are an Unsaved Tribesman of Israel, but believer IN God, you will Hear the “summoning” voice and presence of a Lamb to Mt. Zion.
IF you are not SAVED, you will experience the Last Days Tribulation, YET Hear the “voice” of Gods Holy Angel speaking the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Whole world...”that they may Believe, repent and be saved”, IF they so choose.

BOTTOM LINE....Human eyes can ONLY SEE the “Son of Man”...they Saw Him when He was SENT the First Time...and they shall SEE Him...When He “RETURNS”....
“The Lord, the Lamb....are Titles...They ARE Spirit...which Human Eyes DO NOT SEE the Spirit of God....BY Names and Titles, men KNOW, in WHOSE presence they are in.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Your wrote a great deal there, yet without any scriptural support. Not surprising really considering there isn't any mention of sleep and heaven in the same sentence. "Sleeping in Jesus" is merely a human construct, a euphemism for dead. In reality, all that remains of us in death is the memory of us in others. And then they die, and after a few short generations there is none, not one, who remembers us... Except Jesus. He doesn't forget. Our names are written. Our destiny sure. Our awakening inevitable... On the last day... When they that sleep in the dust of the earth hear that trumpet, and the voice of the archangel wakes us to a new beginning. How I look forward to walking up in the middle of a graveyard and rising to meet Jesus with other like minced souls. Sadly, a minority, but exciting nevertheless. That's our hope. That's the Christian hope. Not to go to heaven or anywhere else at death... But rather what the apostles taught.
A resurrection.

No scriptural support.......Correct....your job to search the scripture and verify that which IS called the Word of God, IS so.

SLEEP does not apply to a SOUL in Heaven...nor did I suggest any such thing.
SLEEP applies to a BODY...with the expectation that BODY shall be raised up.....naturally after living man has napped....or supernaturally which God raises up Dead Body’s.....expressly detailed in what I wrote.

Trumpets are hundreds of times mentioned and Sounded throughout Scriptural Texts.

Every Trump blown HAS a Specific Intended Sound, for a Specific Intended purpose.
Spiritually They are SIGNALS of a prophesied expectation to come into Fruition.

A TRUMP is specifically SOUNDED, specifically BY an archangel, specifically to be HEARD in the ears of CHRIST’S CHURCH, Notice they are being summoned UP to the Lord.

The Lord descends from heaven....with a SHOUT...with the VOICE of the archangel...with the TRUMP of God....
^^^ THAT IS NOT...the LAST TRUMP...THAT is the VOICE of the ARCHANGEL.

1 Thes 4......is NOT about the LAST Trump being blown...or a Trumpet being blown BY an ANGEL.

Scripture itself distinguishes a Difference between Angels and Archangels.
Pay attention to what IS SAID.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Closing toward the end of the Last days of the Last Great Tribulation, Seven ANGELS (NOT archangels)...are given Seven Trumpets, to BLOW on Signal. THOSE Trumpets sounds are the VOICES of ANGELS...not archangels.

The Seventh Angel SOUNDS the LAST (seventh) Trumpet.
Rev 11:15

“Sleeping IN Jesus”....?
That applies to a man....having freely and heartfully chosen to be “crucified with Jesus”...Their BODY is still mortally (physically) alive, but spiritually dead.
Mortally (physically) Dead Body’s are Separated from God...they are DEAD...
God is not a God of the Dead...Gods Life is NOT IN physically Dead body’s.

A man “crucified” with Jesus...is “spiritually bodily dead”....and “HIS BODY”...
IS “KEPT” in the Care of and with Christ Jesus....Called SANCTIFIED...ie.
set apart.

Spiritually that mans BODY, is ALREADY Restored...that man’s BODY, is ALREADY accomplished His ONE REQUIRED bodily death...that man’s BODY is spiritually ALREADY “MADE” anew, “put on UNcorruption”, “overcome” corruption, and that man is IN WAITING....”TO BE RISEN UP IN GLORY”....which shall occur on a precise (unknown to man) Day and Hour of Gods election.

God Gives men Offerings (of Gifts and Blessings) for men to TAKE, Have, Possess, immediately AND to Have, Possess, in the Future, that men WAIT to receive.

It matters not WHAT Gifts and Blessings God Promises an individual to be realized in the Future....Once God declares a Gift or Blessing to a man....
IT IS ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED “spiritually according to God”....whether or not a man SEE it having come to pass “physically”.

You have confused signals, times, trumps, archangels and angels.
Pay attention to Gods “order and way”. It has specific application to every man.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

My belief tends to lead me to believe everyone went to hell at one point and time. Even JESUS when he died on the cross (Matthew 27:45-54), because he was yet to be resurrected (Matthew 28:6) and show that there will be more after this life. He was promised to be with the person on the cross (Luke 23:43), in Paradise the same day. That would be sheol that had two compartments - of souls that have not been resurrected (see: Luke 16:19-31). Jesus promised to be as Jonah being three days and three nights in the whale (Matthew 12:40) was in Paradise as the soul of the Word of God - that was made flesh. Traveled down from Paradise to the prison part of Sheol, and preached a message to those in prison (1 Peter 3:15-21), until the three days were up and Jesus was raised again from the dead by God (Mark 16:5-7). Eventually the place of Sheol was dumped out (Revelation 20:13-14), and done away with leaving two places for people to live when they die now today. Which is either inside of the Kingdom with God, by doing the commandments (Revelation 22:14); they may have the right to the tree of life, and those who are outside the city gates that never close (Revelation 22:15).

Really interesting things here.

Yes. Saved and Unsaved SOULS, departed out of dead body’s at one time BOTH (saved and unsaved SOULS) occupied Hell.

However the saved and unsaved SOULS “were separated” by a great Gulf, which neither the save or unsaved souls could cross over.

The Saved souls were in peace and comfort, WITH the tree of life.
The Unsaved souls were in duress and torments, WITHOUT the tree of life.

None of the Saved souls could be escorted to Heaven.........UNTIL....
He (Christ Jesus’ soul went and left hell) who is First and Before all things
(Col. 1:17)
Thereafter, since Jesus returned to Heaven...so also do departed Saved Living souls go to Heaven...currently called Paradise...currently where the Tree of Life is.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

@Scott Downey

Hi Scott...Remembering....Jesus’ Dead BODY was in the tomb, 3 days.
Jesus’ Departed Living SOUL was in Hell preaching. As well the account in Luke 16: 16-forward to end of Chapter....saved living Souls and unsaved living Souls....Each in hell, divided by a great Gulf, having a seeing, hearing, speaking conversation.

Those days must have been phenomenal ... for saved souls in comfort to be witnesses of the duress, distress, agony of the unsaved souls.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Scott Downey]

@Scott Downey

Hi Scott...Remembering....Jesus’ Dead BODY was in the tomb, 3 days.
Jesus’ Departed Living SOUL was in Hell preaching. As well the account in Luke 16: 16-forward to end of Chapter....saved living Souls and unsaved living Souls....Each in hell, divided by a great Gulf, having a seeing, hearing, speaking conversation.

Those days must have been phenomenal ... for saved souls in comfort to be witnesses of the duress, distress, agony of the unsaved souls.

Glory to God,
Taken

Abraham was also in that place before Christ ascends back to the Father from where He had come. Jesus came from Heaven to earth.
As Christ was crucified, Christ tells the man that they were both going to Paradise that very same day which could not have been heaven.
.
He was crucified dead and buried.
His living soul went to Hades (descends into the lower parts of the earth) into Paradise. Christ did this to fill all things, and prove He reigns over hell also as he was given the keys of hell and death both. Imagine the joy they felt in Paradise that was in the lower parts of the earth, experiencing Christ come to take them back with Him into Heaven.

Abraham at his death is in the same place where Christ at His death goes. Abraham's soul witnesses the Day of Christ, he is not sleeping or gone poof out of existence.

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

When Christ ascends, he takes all those in Paradise into Heaven with Himself. Christ never ceases to exist at His death, he descends though into Hades. God was always also in Hell as God filled all things, Now also the Son fills all things. By that you can know Christ was there. Which also Peter speaks to in Acts 2 and 1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Revelation 1:18
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

Eden after the great flood is down below in the depths of the earth and is the place where all righteous go at their deaths and is known as Paradise, which is now in heaven after the ascension of Christ back to the Father.

Ezekiel 31, an excerpt regarding the judgement on Egypt showing where Eden was back then.

10 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was [d]lifted up in its height, 11 therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness. 12 And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it.

13 ‘On its ruin will remain all the birds of the heavens,
And all the beasts of the field will come to its branches—
14 So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them.

‘For they have all been delivered to death,
To the depths of the earth,
Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.’

15 “Thus says the Lord God: ‘In the day when it went down to [e]hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to [f]mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to [g]hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.

18 ‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

I do not see a gap in Heb 9:27. Where else do you see a 1,000 year gap in Scripture, Brother, Friend? I am open to correction.

Hebrews 9:27
English Standard Version
27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

There are also 2 judgements.
As believers, we will not face the white throne judgement (the final judgement)
At our death, we come before the judgement seat of Christ. 2 Cor 5

When Christ says we will not come under judgement but have passed from death into life, he is referring to the final judgement, we are immune from that.

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I know the gospel accounts read like it is all the same judgement at that time, but we have already been judged not guilty by God and Christ and so are not under judgement at that final judgement.

I think we will be witnesses of the final judgement, so will be there but not subject to it. We will be pointed out as the group that has eternal life, while the others will be cast into the fire. All will witness so they must all be present. The final judgement also finalizes the end of the age for us and the others to all of the universe. For believers the final judgement has no power of condemnation, it formalizes that we are not under judgement of destruction,

 

[Phoneman777]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

The souls that were in paradise and those in prison all had souls that lived in Sheol. Jesus describes the place very well, with the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.


“Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him would not be lost but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭18‬ ‭ERV‬‬

It’s odd what Jesus says here God sent his son into the world He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through Him (The Son), I believe the son suffered the wrath of sin during his judgment, his scoffing in court, and being judged by Israel to be crucified - being handed over by the Romans and put on a cross to die.

A brutal death, he suffered which to me was significant of the hatred towards God; and not wanting anything to do with the one who desired to heal them and help them if they were willing to turn to Him. (Matthew 26-27).

Something interesting here is a man who became a disciple of Christ put him in a tomb the man made for himself to borrow; as the man who came to get Jesus body believed that God would raise it up again to signfy that life after death is true; and the place where people being going to Sheol; eventually is done away with.


You know thinking of this, you make me think of the flesh of the Lord. Who’s suffered with temptations from the devil, even being offered the whole world if Jesus would bow his knee, he surely was tempted but refrained from falling in the Garden; saying not my will Father but your will be done; and I believe this was the cup of sin or the that Jesus would become the sin offering for the world which because of him and the Jews we have this good news that there is more in this life than just psychical.



Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.


“From this time on we don’t think of anyone as the world thinks of people. It is true that in the past we thought of Christ as the world thinks. But we don’t think that way now. When anyone is in Christ, it is a whole new world. The old things are gone; suddenly, everything is new! All this is from God. Through Christ, God made peace between himself and us. And God gave us the work of bringing people into peace with him. I mean that God was in Christ, making peace between the world and himself. In Christ, God did not hold people guilty for their sins. And he gave us this message of peace to tell people. So we have been sent to speak for Christ. It is like God is calling to people through us. We speak for Christ when we beg you to be at peace with God. Christ had no sin, but God made him become sin so that in Christ we could be right with God.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭16‬-‭21‬ ‭ERV‬‬

2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ had no sin, but God made him become sin so that in Christ we could be right with God. | Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) | Download The Bible App Now

Christ had no sin, but God made him become sin so that in Christ we could be right with God.

bible.com

I’m no so sure this is true.

If the wages of sin is death, and death = eternal torment, what would Jesus have to endure in order to deliver us from that penalty of eternal torment?

If the wages of sin = eternal torment and Jesus suffered less than eternal torment, are the wages of sin paid?