Was Jesus Eternally Tormented?

[The Learner]

(1) נַפְשִׁי = myself: לא אדע נפשׁי Job 9:21 I know not myself.
(2) נַפְשְׁךָ = thyself: שׁמר נ׳ Deuteronomy 4:9 keep thyself.
(3) נַפְשׁוֺ = himself: אהב כנ׳ 1 Samuel 18:1, 3; 1 Samuel 20:17 loved as himself.
(4) נַפְשָׁהּ = herself: צדּקה נ׳ Jeremiah 3:11 justified herself.
(5) נַפְשָׁם = themselves: הציל נ׳ deliver themselves Isaiah 47:14; Ezekiel 14:14, 20.
(6) נַפְשְׁכֶם, נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם = yourselves: אַלתַּֿשִּׁאוּ נ׳ Jeremiah 37:9 deceive not yourselves, also Jeremiah 42:20; Jeremiah 44:7; ענּה נ׳ Leviticus 16:29, 31; Leviticus 23:27, 32; Numbers 29:7 (P); נשׁמרתם לנ׳ Deuteronomy 4:15; Joshua 23:11 (D).
(7) נַפְשׁוֺתֵינוּ = ourselves: על נ׳ Jeremiah 26:19 against ourselves.
c. = person of man, individual, + 144 times, first in D2; especially in H, P, and kindred writers:
(1) with אָדָם: אדם נ׳ Leviticus 24:17 opposed to בהמה נ׳ Leviticus 24:18 (both H), and so אדם נ׳ human persons Numbers 31:35, 40, 46 (P) 1 Chronicles 5:21; Ezekiel 27:13. Elsewhere without אדם : ברכה נ׳ Proverbs 11:25 one who blesses; רְמִיָּה נ׳ Proverbs 19:15 idle person; תחת נ׳ נ׳ person in place of person, Job 16:4; כפּר על נ׳ Exodus 30:15, 16; Numbers 15:28; Numbers 31:50 (all P) Leviticus 17:11 (H).
(2) נפשׁ = person, any one: Deuteronomy 24:7; Deuteronomy 27:25; Proverbs 28:17; Ezekiel 18:4 (3 times in verse); Ezekiel 33:6; elsewhere only H P: Leviticus 2:1; Leviticus 4:2, 27; 5:1, 2, 4, 15, 17; 5:21; 7:18, 20, 21, 25, 27; 23:29, 30 (twice in verse); Numbers 5:6; 15:27, 30; 19:22; 31:19, 28; 35:11, 15, 30 (twice in verse); Joshua 20:3, 9 (all P), Leviticus 17:10, 12, 15; 20:6 (twice in verse); 22:6, 11 (all H); נכרתה הנ׳ הַהִוא מן that person shall be cut off from: only in Genesis 17:14; Exodus 12:15, 19; 31:14; Leviticus 7:20, 21, 27; Numbers 9:13; 15:30, 31; 19:13, 20 (all P), Leviticus 19:8; Leviticus 22:3 (both H).
† (3) נפשׁ collective for persons, in enumerations: Deuteronomy 10:22; Joshua 10:28, 30, 32, 35, 37 (twice in verse); Joshua 10:39; Joshua 11:11 (all D2) Jeremiah 43:6; Jeremiah 52:29, 30 (twice in verse); Ezekiel 22:25; elsewhere only Genesis 12:5; Genesis 46:15, 18, 22, 25, 26 (twice in verse); Genesis 46:27 (twice in verse); Exodus 1:5 (twice in verse); Exodus 12:16; Numbers 31:35, 40 (all P).
† (4) נְפָשׁוֺת persons Genesis 36:6; Exodus 12:4; Exodus 16:16; Numbers 19:18 (all P), Leviticus 18:29; Leviticus 20:25; Leviticus 27:2 (all H), 2 Kings 12:5; Proverbs 11:30; Proverbs 14:25; Ezekiel 13:18 (3 times in verse); 13:19 (twice in verse); 13:20 (twice in verse); 17:17; 18:4; 22:27 (נפשׁים 13:20 see above).
† (5) נפשׁ = deceased person, sometimes with מֵת, נֶפֶשׁ מֵת Numbers 6:6 (P), נַפְשֹׁת מֵת (Greek Version of the LXX Syriac Version נֶפֶשׁ) Leviticus 21:11 (H); usually without מֵת, נפשׁ (ה)אדם Numbers 9:6, 7; Numbers 19:11, 13 (P); or simply נפשׁ, Leviticus 19:28; Leviticus 21:1; Leviticus 22:4 (all H) Numbers 5:2; Numbers 6:11; Numbers 9:10 (all P); elsewhere only Haggai 2:13.
5. נפשׁ = seat of the appetites, in all periods (46 times) —
a. hunger: רְעֵבָה נ׳ hungry soul Psalm 107:9; Proverbs 27:7; with noun or verb of שׂבע satisfy Isaiah 56:11; Isaiah 58:10; Jeremiah 50:19; Ezekiel 7:19; Psalm 63:6; Psalm 107:9; Proverbs 13:25; Proverbs 27:7; מתוק לנ׳ Proverbs 16:24 sweet to the taste.
b. thirst: עֲיֵפָה נ׳ weary soul Proverbs 25:25; Jeremiah 31:25; כארץ עיפה נ׳ Psalm 143:6; צמאה נ׳ Psalm 42:3; Psalm 63:2.
c. appetite in general: יַקִּיפוּ עָלָיו אֹיְבַי בנ׳ Psalm 17:9 my enemies compass me about with greed; הִרְחִיבָה שְׁאוֺל נַפְשָׁהּ וּפָֽעֲרָה פִיהָ Isaiah 5:14 She’ôl enlarged her appetite, etc., compare Habakkuk 2:5; Proverbs 23:2 בַּעַל נֶפֶשׁ; Ecclesiastes uses נפשׁ only in the sense of a, b, c; the נפשׁ craves, lacks, and is filled with good things: Ecclesiastes 2:24; Ecclesiastes 4:8; Ecclesiastes 6:2, 3, 7, 9; Ecclesiastes 7:28.
6. = נ׳ seat of emotions and passions (151 times) —
a. desire: † אִוְּתָה נ׳ soul desires Deuteronomy 12:20; Deuteronomy 14:26; 1 Samuel 2:16; 2 Samuel 3:21; 1 Kings 11:37; Job 23:13; Proverbs 13:4; Proverbs 21:10; Micah 7:1; תַּאֲוַת נ׳ Psalm 10:3; Isaiah 26:8; † אַוַּת נ׳ Deuteronomy 12:15, 20, 21; Deuteronomy 18:6; 1 Samuel 23:20; Jeremiah 2:24; so also לנפשׁ according to one's desire Deuteronomy 21:14; Psalm 78:18; Jeremiah 34:16; כנפשׁ Deuteronomy 23:25; האח נפשׁנו ah, our desire Psalm 35:25; בנפשׁ at one's desire Psalm 105:22; Ezekiel 16:27; יָֽצְאָה נ'בְדַבְּרוֹ Songs 5:6; נשׂא נ׳ lift up the soul, desire Deuteronomy 24:15; 2 Samuel 14:14 (read אליהם, not אלהים), Psalm 24:4; Psalm 25:1; Psalm 86:4; Psalm 143:8; Proverbs 19:8; Jeremiah 22:27; Jeremiah 44:14; Hosea 4:8.
†b. abhorrence, loathing: געלה נ׳ soul abhorreth Leviticus 26:11, 15, 30, 43 (H) Jeremiah 14:19; בחלה בי וגם נ׳ Zechariah 11:8 and their soul also fell a loathing against me.
c. sorrow and distress: † מרי נ׳ bitter, gloomy, discontented of soul Judges 18:25 (E) 2 Samuel 17:8; Job 3:20; Proverbs 31:6; † מר נ׳ 1 Samuel 22:2 compare Job 7:11; Job 10:1; Isaiah 38:15; Ezekiel 27:1; עָֽגְמָה נ׳ Job 30:35 grieved; אגמי נ׳ sad of soul Isaiah 19:10; תבכה נ׳ my soul shall weep Jeremiah 13:17; ירעה נ׳ his soul trembleth Isaiah 15:4; צרת נ׳ distress of soul Genesis 42:21 (E).
†d. תגיל נ׳ my soul rejoiceth Psalm 35:9; Isaiah 61:10; שׂמּח נ׳ rejoice the soul Psalm 86:4; also Psalm 94:19; Psalm 138:3; Proverbs 29:17.
†e. love: אהבה נ׳ my soul loveth Songs 1:7; Songs 3:1, 2, 3, 4; יְדִדוּת נ׳ darling of my soul Jeremiah 12:7; ב׳ דבקה נ׳ his soul clave unto Genesis 34:3 (J), with אחרי Psalm 63:9; חשׁקה ב׳ נ׳ soul is attached to Genesis 34:8 (P).
f. alienation, hatred, revenge: † מן תֵּקַע נ׳ the soul is alienated from Jeremiah 6:8; Ezekiel 23:17, 18; מן נקעה נ׳ Ezekiel 23:18, 22, 28; שְׂנֻאי נ׳ hated of soul 2 Samuel 5:8 (Qr); שׂנאה נ׳ Psalm 11:5; Isaiah 1:14.
g. other emotions and feelings: השׁיב נ׳ bring back soul Lamentations 1:11, 19 (i.e. revive, compare with שׁוּב 1 Kings 17:21f), hence figurative refresh, cheer, 1 Kings 17:16; Psalm 19:8; Proverbs 25:14; Ruth 4:15; שׁובב נ׳ Psalm 23:3; מַחְמַל נ׳ your souls' compassion Ezekiel 24:21; קצרה נ׳ soul was impatient Numbers 21:4 (E), Judges 10:16; Judges 16:16; Zechariah 11:8; כי אאריך נ׳ that I should prolong my patience Job 6:11 הגר ידעתם אתנֿ׳ ye know the feeling of the stranger Exodus 23:9 (RD).
7. נפשׁ is used occasionally for mental acts + לבב (see 10); possibly also alone, owing to unconscious assimilation by late writers; but most, if not all, examples may be otherwise explained: נפשׁי ידעת מאד Psalm 139:14 my soul knoweth well (or I know well; compare 4 a); בלא לא טוב דעת נ׳ Proverbs 19:2 that the soul be without knowledge is not good (but RVm desire without knowledge, compare 6 a); דעה חכמה לנ׳ Proverbs 24:14 know wisdom for thy soul (or according to thy desire, compare6a); אל תדמי בנ׳ Esther 4:13 think not in thy soul (or in thyself, compare 4b); כמו שׁער בג׳ Proverbs 23:7 as he reckoneth in his soul (but RV in himself, compare 4 b); מה תאמר נ׳ 1 Samuel 20:4 (but AV RV following Greek Version of the LXX ἐπιθυμεῖ = תְּאַוֶּה; see 6 a).
8. נפשׁ for acts of the will is dubious: אם ישׁ נפשׁכם (את) if it is your purpose Genesis 23:8 (P) 2 Kings 9:15 (or if it is your desire, 6a); בחרה נ׳ my soul chooseth Job 7:15; מאנה נ׳ my soul, refuseth Job 6:7; Psalm 77:3; חפצה נ׳ their soul delighteth in Isaiah 66:3; רצתה נ׳ my soul delighteth in Isaiah 42:1; (all perhaps emotional, 6b, d, g).
9. נפשׁ = character is still more dubious: בּוֹ נ'לא־יָֽשְׁרָה Habakkuk 2:4 his soul is not right in him (but Greek Version of the LXX οὐκ εὐδοκεῖ ἡ ψυχή μου ἐν αὐτῷ [εὐδοκεῖ = רצתה], see 6); נַפְשִׁי לאֹ מְטֻמָּאָה Ezekiel 4:14 my soul hath not (or I have not, 4a) been polluted.
†10. נ׳ in D, when used with לבב, is assimilated to it, and shares with it the meanings of 7, 8, 9; and so in later writers influenced by D (unless we may think that ל׳ is used of intellect, while נ׳ is used of the feelings): thus, בכל לבב ובכל נפשׁ (see לבב): with דרשׁ Deuteronomy 4:29; 2 Chronicles 15:12; עשׂה Deuteronomy 26:16; אהב Deuteronomy 6:5; 13:4; 30:6; ידע Joshua 23:14; עבד Deuteronomy 10:12; Deuteronomy 11:13; Joshua 22:5; שׁמע בקלו Deuteronomy 30:2; שׁוב אל Deuteronomy 30:10; 1 Kings 8:48 2 Chronicles 6:38; 2 Kings 23:25; שׁמר מצות 2 Kings 23:3 2 Chronicles 34:31; הלך לפני 1 Kings 2:4; and Deuteronomy 11:18; 1 Samuel 2:35; 1 Chronicles 22:19; 1 Chronicles 28:9; Jeremiah 32:41; Psalm 13:8 [Psalm 13:2] [?]; Proverbs 2:10; Proverbs 24:12.
Note. — In three cases is generally found closer approach to supposed radical meaning breath: —
a. שׁמן וקטרת ישׂמח לב ומתק רעהו מעצת נפשׁ Proverbs 27:9. Ges (after Döderlein) renders מעצת נ׳ more than odorous trees, so later edds., even Buhl; but Vulgate De SS transpose) מֵעֲצַת רֵעֵהוּ וּמֶתֶק נ׳. Greek Version of the LXX Hi Bi ומתקרעה = the soul is rent asunder by cares. In any case נפשׁ is || לב, compare 10.
b. נַפְשׁוֺ גֶּחָלִים תְּלַהֵט Job 41:13 his breath kindleth coals (of the crocodile). The piece is one of the latest in the book; primitive meaning hardly in such a passage; context favours reference to passion or fury; perhaps below 6f, his passion or fury kindleth coals.
c. בָּתֵּי הַנֶּפֶשׁ Isaiah 3:20 perfume boxes; meaning evident from context; but not necessarily scent (breath)-boxes; may be 6 a, boxes of desire, or 5, boxes exciting the sense of smell; = smelling boxes or bottles. No sufficient evidence in Biblical Hebrew, therefore, for meaning breath, odour. — See, for complete study of נֶפֶשׁ (all passages), BrJBL 1897,17 ff.
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BLB Scripture Index of Brown-Driver-Briggs
Genesis

1:20; 1:20; 1:21; 1:24; 1:30; 2:7; 2:7; 2:19; 2:19; 9:4; 9:5; 9:10; 9:12; 9:15; 9:16; 12:5; 12:13; 12:13; 17:14; 19:19; 19:20; 23:8; 34:3; 34:8; 35:18; 36:6; 36:6; 37:21; 37:21; 42:21; 44:30; 46:15; 46:18; 46:22; 46:25; 46:26; 46:27; 49:6; 49:6

 

[The Learner]

A typical historical understanding is how I know things are what they are.
I do not diverge off the path into new understandings of scripture according to science of human wisdom, which scripturally is from below, not from heaven. Moses the unlearned as you call him, wrote much scripture, but you are giving it little substance of reality, maybe you are corrupted in your understanding.

science is from hell? really?

 

[The Learner]

Btw, WHEN did you receive eternal life/existence?

No speakers, let me know what was said, 3 Stages of Eternal Life - Jean E. Jones

"
Eternal life is that blessed state of existence with God in perfect righteousness, which life is a gift of His grace because of the incarnation and redemptive activity of Jesus Christ. From the moment of his or her conversion the Christian has this gift of eternal life. However, it is experienced in three modes or stages. The first is by faith while still in this mortal life here on the present earth. The second is that of the soul before God in heaven while the body is in the grave. And the third will be that of the body and soul after the resurrection forever in the new heaven and earth.

While there are three modes of eternal life, it is the same life that the Christian experiences in three different stages. Though now by faith only in this present mortal life, it is nonetheless as real as the possession of it in heaven before God's throne and in the new heaven and earth after the resurrection. Nevertheless, as Christians possess eternal life in their faith in Christ now in this earthly life, they long for the time when he or she will enter the second mode where all suffering will be gone and all tears taken away. And finally they look forward to the End at the second coming of Christ when they with their newly resurrected bodies will life forever in the third mode, the new heaven and earth.31"

Three Modes of Eternal Life - by Dr. Louis A. Brighton

 

[The Learner]

Eternal life is that blessed state of existence with God in perfect righteousness, which life is a gift of His grace because of the incarnation and redemptive activity of Jesus Christ. From the moment of his or her conversion the Christian has this gift of eternal life. However, it is experienced in three modes or stages. The first is by faith while still in this mortal life here on the present earth. The second is that of the soul before God in heaven while the body is in the grave. And the third will be that of the body and soul after the resurrection forever in the new heaven and earth.

While there are three modes of eternal life, it is the same life that the Christian experiences in three different stages. Though now by faith only in this present mortal life, it is nonetheless as real as the possession of it in heaven before God's throne and in the new heaven and earth after the resurrection. Nevertheless, as Christians possess eternal life in their faith in Christ now in this earthly life, they long for the time when he or she will enter the second mode where all suffering will be gone and all tears taken away. And finally they look forward to the End at the second coming of Christ when they with their newly resurrected bodies will life forever in the third mode, the new heaven and earth.31

Three Modes of Eternal Life - by Dr. Louis A. Brighton

 

[The Learner]

Strong's Hebrew
5396. nishmah -- breath
... 5395, 5396. nishmah. 5397 . breath. Transliteration: nishmah Phonetic
Spelling: (nish-maw') Short Definition: life-breath. Word ...
/hebrew/5396.htm - 6k
5397. neshamah -- breath
... 5396, 5397. neshamah. 5398 . breath. Transliteration: neshamah Phonetic
Spelling: (nesh-aw-maw') Short Definition: breath. Word ...
/hebrew/5397.htm - 6k

7307. ruach -- breath, wind, spirit
... breath, wind, spirit. Transliteration: ruach Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh) Short
Definition: spirit. ... air, anger, blast, breath, cool, courage, mind, quarter,. ...
/hebrew/7307.htm - 6k

1892. hebel -- vapor, breath
... 1891, 1892. hebel. 1893 . vapor, breath. Transliteration: hebel Phonetic Spelling:
(heh'bel) Short Definition: vanity. Word Origin a prim. ...
/hebrew/1892.htm - 6k

3306. yaphach -- to breathe, puff
... 3305, 3306. yaphach. 3307 . to breathe, puff. Transliteration: yaphach Phonetic
Spelling: (yaw-fakh') Short Definition: breath. Word Origin a prim. ...
/hebrew/3306.htm - 5k

5301. naphach -- to breathe, blow
... blow, breath, give up, cause to lose life, seething, snuff. A primitive root;
to puff, in various applications (literally, to inflate ...
/hebrew/5301.htm - 6k

5315. nephesh -- a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire ...
... person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion NASB Word Usage any (1), anyone (2),
anyone* (1), appetite (7), being (1), beings (3), body (1), breath (1), corpse ...
/hebrew/5315.htm - 7k

639. aph -- a nostril, nose, face, anger
... Word Origin from anaph Definition a nostril, nose, face, anger NASB Word Usage anger
(205), angry (2), angry* (5), before (2), breath (1), countenance (1 ...
/hebrew/639.htm - 6k

659. epha -- of nothing
... of nothing From an unused root probably meaning to breathe; properly, a breath,
ie Nothing -- of nought. 658b, 659. epha. 660 . Strong's Numbers.
/hebrew/659.htm - 5k

6315. puach -- to breathe, blow
... A primitive root; to puff, ie Blow with the breath or air; hence, to fan (as a breeze),
to utter, to kindle (a fire), to scoff -- blow (upon), break, puff ...
/hebrew/6315.htm - 6k

 

[The Learner]

Topical Bible: Breath

 

[Phoneman777]

This just keeps going in circles.

His choice.

Though you have heard my understanding, you have yet to describe what the breath of life is.

That which comes forth from God and joins with an inanimate Body to animate it. It returns to God at death and the Body returns to the dust.

1. Are the unsaved dead still alive, being disembodied eternal souls, living in the religious view of what hell is?

Nope, the dead cease to be...until the resurrection.

2. And if not, what is their existence, and where are they living?

The wicked dead, like all dead, cease to exist until the resurrection.

 

[The Learner]

not keeping up again

 

[Scott Downey]

And that is why you know nothing about what happens when we die, nor the reward of the wicked.

Why do you keep arguing that a soul is not what the Bible says it is: the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?

"He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet will he live". God preserves the Soul by RESURRECTING them, and is why the saints are said to "sleep"...because God's going to wake us up and we'll be alive forevermore, not go wandering around as "disembodied spirits" like pagan ideas made popular by stupid satanic movies like "Ghost".

You base your doctrine on the words of Solomon, who turned against the Lord and did evil in His sight worshiping pagan gods.
While true believers have a more sure word today in what Paul and Peter wrote and Jesus taught about the spirit and soul having eternal life.
Solomon had wisdom given from God but he departed from the Lord in his heart and served other gods and built temples to them, Solomon wisdom had been taken away from him.
Anyone such as you basing doctrine on his words when they are contrary to what the apostles wrote is in bad place, turned pagan themselves following pagan ideas.

1 Kings 11
4 For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not [a]loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom[b] the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. 7 Then Solomon built a [c]high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8 And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

9 So the Lord became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the Lord had commanded

 

[Jack]

I never said the grave yards are full. The point being, the whole earth is a place for a grave, oceans included.
And so yes, there is plenty of room for more to enter into hell, aka the "pit"**, a GRAVE.

**Job 17:16
[16]They shall go down H3381 to the bars H905 of the pit, H7585 when our rest H5183 together H3162 is in the dust. H6083.

Strong's Number - H7585
Hebrew: שׁאל שׁאול
Transliteration: she'ôl she'ôl
Pronunciation: {sheh-ole'} sheh-ole'

• Definition: From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian {retreat }) including its accessories and inmates: - {grave} {hell} pit.

KJV Usage: grave (31x), hell (31x), pit (3x).
Occurs: 65
In verses: 63

You've been practicing your smoke screens!

As I did say, no one is alive in hell (hades, she'ol, the pit, aka THE GRAVE), even though the living bring flowers.

No Scripture, only YOUR opinions.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ says, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

How do you suppose he did that if Abraham was dead and gone poof and had to await the age of the resurrection to see the day of Christ's appearing.
Abraham who was alive in PARADISE at that time. WITNESSED THIS, he was not unconscious or ceased entirely to exist..

John 8
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

In a similar response to the same idea, to those who claimed no resurrection (ceased to exist after death), Christ says this.

Mark 12:26-28

26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly [a]mistaken.”

 

[Scott Downey]

1 Samuel 28, God brings up Samuel from Paradise in Hades to speak and prophesy the words of the Lord to Saul, after he had died.
More proof of life after death.

5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.

6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

 

[Phoneman777]

You base your doctrine on the words of Solomon, who turned against the Lord and did evil in His sight worshiping pagan gods.

So what? I also base my doctrine on murderers and adulterers (Paul and David), liars (Peter), haters who desire to murder (James and John), and other such authors of Scripture because they repented of their sins and were filled with the Holy Ghost.

Solomon doesn't contradict a single word by anyone accept those of the Immortal Soul crowd who teaches the dead know all kinds of things when Solomon says plainly, "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything".

 

[Cassandra]

Why did Samuel, if the witch conjured him up, come up from the earth instead of down from heaven? Also he told Saul that he would join him(thou and thy sons will be with me) .I don't think Saul will be in the Kingdom.

 

[Taken]

Since the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV), at death the Breath of Life returns to God, the Body returns to the Earth, the Soul ceases to exist...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

When an electric current flows through a bulb filament and this union produces light, does the light go on shining on another plain of existence when the current flow is interrupted?

No, it ceases to exist. Just as the Soul at its death ceases to exist. That's why God said the wicked "shall be as though they had not been" and "never shalt (Satan) be anymore".

Hi Phoneman ~ Agree and Disagree.

We have no precise knowledge WHEN A “soul” exists.
We can “speculate per what IS revealed in Scripture.
In the beginning “teaching is” God “FIRST” CREATED a MULTITUDE of KINDS of “THINGS”.
We KNOW, Once God CREATES “things”, He thereafter “MAKES” “something” APPLICABLE / APPLY to those Created things.

God CREATED a fully Form-ED manKIND of thing....and THEN MADE that fully form_ED manKIND of thing ALIVE/ a Living KIND of thing.

The MAKING, was VIA GIVING that manKIND of thing....
A soul (that belongs to God)
With Gods Breath IN that Soul, (which Gods Breath IS Life, belongs to God).

Creation FIRST, MAKING thereafter, WORKS of God.

Isa 57:
[16] For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

The Lord Gives and the Lord Takes Away. Gods Order and Way.

Job 1:
[21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Ezek 18:
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

God IS Spirit....Gods CREATIONS are “natural”....Gods MAKING is “spiritual”.
There ARE TWO “KINDS” of DEATHS...

1) PHYSICAL DEATH (applicable to NATURAL things)
2) SPIRITUAL DEATH (applicable to SPIRITUAL things)

A Physical Death, is whereby A Physical Kind of THING CEASES to EXIST in it’s Original Created FORM.
(Called “passed away”. Men’s body’s can “pass away”...the Earth can “pass away”, etc.)

A Spiritual Death, is whereby A Spiritual Kind of THING....IS “Separated From God”.
(Called “without” God.
Men’s Living body’s can be “without” God....
Living Souls IN Men’s body’s can be “without” God....
Living Souls Departed OUT of a mans Dead body can be “without” God.)

All Spiritual Living Souls Depart OUT of a mans Physically Dead Body:

1) Some Spiritually Living Souls Departed OUT of a Physically Dead Body....
Returns “ESCORTED” TO God....(Are Called Saved souls....Are Called With God in Heaven. Are called in Peace, Rest, Comfort.)

2) Some Spiritually Living Souls Departed OUT of a Physically Dead Body...
ARE “SENT” TO Hell....(Are Called Unsaved souls...Are Called Without God. Are called in torments.)

**) A Departed soul, (Saved or Unsaved), ARE fully Alive, Every “SENSE”....hear-ING, see-ING, touch feel-ING, speak-ING, tast-ING, smell-ING.....are Fully functioning....
AND...nothing NEW...Fully are AFFECTED and REACTIVE to the surroundings of their HABITAT....(which IS NEW )....
Pryor...all Living men...are affected and reactive to their Habitat...(Face of the Earth.
After Bodily Death....Departed Living souls...are affected and reactive to their Habitat....escorted to HEAVEN...or sent to HELL.

3) A Third......Phenomenal/ unusual, but fully Possible Option that HAS and SHALL apply to SOME earthly men. (Revealed In Scripture...and revealed in Accounts of mens testimonies OUTSIDE of Scripture)....
** The Phenomena of Men Physically Bodily Dying...Their Living Soul Departs OUT of their Body...Their Living Soul...returns to God....OR is sent to Hell.........
** AND THEN.... “by the POWER of God”....their Living Soul RETURNS to their Natural Physically Dead Body........AND the “BLOOD LIFE” of their BODY RESUMES Living...

(This is expressly and solely speaking OF an earthly mans BODY and an earthly mans SOUL.........Not speaking OF the “spirit of man” or “Gods WORKS of “rebirthing the spirit of a man”.....(which is entirely a different topic).

Point being, and disagreement....
* Living souls DO NOT CEASE to EXIST, when an earthly mans BODY dies.
* (UNSAVED) Living souls SHALL CEASE to EXIST, AFTER JUDGEMENT and SENTENCING (which HAS NOT YET OCCURRED.)
* Once JUDGEMENT and SENTENCING commences...(which Occurs AFTER “all lives of mortal bodily living men are physically DEAD”)
* THEN SHALL....the LIFE of Gods Breath IN UNSAVED Souls RETURN to God......and THOSE UNSAVED Souls and Body’s thereof...DESTROYED....IN HELL.

Matt 10:
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

@Jack
(Hi Jack...Maybe of interest to you.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman ~ Agree and Disagree.

We have no precise knowledge WHEN A “soul” exists. We can “speculate per what IS revealed in Scripture.

Do we need to speculate -
when the white paint becomes the red paint you want to buy?
when the white milk becomes the chocolate milk you want to drink?
when the unlit bulb becomes the current-conducting bulb we want for light?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and man (literally "dust of the ground") BECAME a living Soul".
Right or wrong, my friend?

 

[Taken]

So what? I also base my doctrine on murderers and adulterers (Paul and David), liars (Peter), haters who desire to murder (James and John), and other such authors of Scripture because they repented of their sins and were filled with the Holy Ghost.

Solomon doesn't contradict a single word by anyone accept those of the Immortal Soul crowd who teaches the dead know all kinds of things when Solomon says plainly, "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything".

@Scott Downey
@Phoneman777

Hi ~
OT men over a span of time were given “bits and pieces” of knowledge, with “much Understanding” of the knowledge being “KEPT SECRET”.

Every “natural new born man”, experiences the Same...secularly and spiritually....”bits and pieces” of knowledge, with “much Understanding” of the knowledge .... being a wonderment, believed, doubted, a quiz or sorts.

Jesus “introduced” REVEALINGS “of HOW TO GAIN the Historical KEPT Secrets of “UNDERSTANDING Gods Word...ACCORDING TO...Gods Understanding”.

Scripture is SIMPLY KNOWLEDGE....
* Men “UNDERSTAND” any KNOWLEDGE, by: MINDFULLY....thinking...ciphering...weighing BETWEEN this and that...via
MINDFUL LOGIC....OF “this MAKES SENSE to a mans Natural senses and that DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to a mans Natural senses.

* Seriously...WHO CAN prod, figure, deduce, conclude, Gods Thoughts, Gods Understanding OF GODS OWN WORD....by, through, of A MANS MIND?
* Answer? No one.

Remember a mans carnal mind IS naturally AGAINST God.
Remember the warning, of private interpretation of Gods Word is moot.
Remember the warning, of Philosophers whose ploy was teaching any listener via their own mindful conclusions, Meaning of Gods Word.

THE OFFERING of Jesus’ Knowledge....
THE Lord God Himself...GIVES His Understanding OF the Knowledge of Gods Word...TO men WITH the Lord God......WHO SEEK the Lord Gods UNDERSTANDING, by, through, of the Lord God Himself.

We are fully Aware...Satan KNOWS the Knowledge of Gods Word.
We are fully Aware...Many Men KNOW the Knowledge of Gods Word.
....The Phenomena IS....FEW “individuals” SEEK or RECEIVE and UNDERSTAND the meaning of Gods Word.......According to Having RECEIVED Gods Understanding of Gods own Word.

* God SENT “preachers” to PREACH “the Knowledge of Gods Word”.
* God DID NOT SEND “preachers” to Explain the MEANING/UNDERSTANDING of Gods Word.
* And TODAY’S Dilemma...
* Preachers PREACHING...and Preachers TEACHING a multitude of Gods “supposed Understanding of Gods Own Word”.
* TODAY’S Dilemma...
* Easy peasy....LISTENING MEN...Listening TO other men PREACHING Gods Word....YEAH....Praise and Good...TO HEAR Gods WORD...
* OOPS....the LAZY LISTENER....failing to VERIFY and IN CONTEXT...of WHAT he is HEARING...IS TRUE..according to Gods Contextual Scriptural Written Word.
* FURTHER OOPS...the LAZY LISTENER....depends on, acquiesces to Whatever the “Preacher” says Gods Word means.......BY DEFAULT “discarding Gods OWN “role” of God Himself giving men His Understanding of His Own Word”.

Prov 2:
[6] For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Something NEW Jesus’ chosen disciples Heard, Learned, Experienced...and Taught that other men MIGHT KNOW and Themselves Experience...

Col 1:
[9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

The BIG PICTURE is “INDIVIDUAL mortal men” electing to Freely Choose to HAVE an Exclusive Ever Lasting, One on One Relationship WITH and IN the Lord God Almighty, DO so, and it IS a One time Forever established Relationship.
( A mortal man WITH the Lord God, IS NOT secure. That man CAN LEAVE being WITH the Lord God. The Lord God CAN LEAVE being WITH that man.
Security IS a man BEING WITH and IN Christ (the wisdom, power, seed of God)...and Christ (the wisdom, power, seed of God) IN a man.

The WORDLY DECEPTION is “INDIVIDUAL mortal men” perpetually instigating, advocating, preaching....Favorable and/or Unfavorable RELATIONSHIPS “between and among men”........AFFECT a mans Personal One on One Established Relationship WITH the Lord God.

No! That is completely Backwards....An individual mortal mans One on One exclusive Personal Relationship WITH and IN the Lord God....THERE AFTER AFFECTS a mans Personal Relationship with Other men...it does NOT jeopardize an individual mans ever lasting relationship WITH and IN the Lord God.
(And the DILEMMA OF other men...IS: “thinking” “implying” “concluding”... A man WHO HAS an established One on One Relationship WITH and IN God....has been touch with a some Magical Wand that such men will, must, YIELD, AGREE, with (and even BE a doormat), to all other men.). Not so.

Not identifying your particular positions...Just sharing considerations of possibilities of why men disagree.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Scott Downey]

Isaiah 14 about the king of Babylon at his death.

9 “Hell[c] from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
‘Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’

 

[Scott Downey]

Souls go to hell.

Psalm 23
13 Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from [d]hell.

Not PC today! Today schools are terrible places to learn be moral and do the right things.

50 shell-shocked teachers, staff flee chaotic Florida school district

“On an everyday basis I am deflecting being attacked, scratched, head-butted, pushed, hit,” one teacher said as her voice choked with emotion.

nypost.com

 

[Scott Downey]

Psalm 55:15
Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

Luke 20:38
For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”