Was Jesus Eternally Tormented?

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Scott Downey

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Ezekiel 32:21
The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: ‘They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’
 

Scott Downey

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John 3:39 abides, means remains forever. God's wrath remains forever on the unbelieving person. It that person completely ceased to exist, then the scripture could not be true.
abides here is present tense, it is continuing and eternal.

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The KJV translates Strong's G3306 in the following manner: abide (61x), remain (16x), dwell (15x), continue (11x), tarry (9x), endure (3x), miscellaneous (5x)

  1. to remain, abide
    1. in reference to place
      1. to sojourn, tarry
      2. not to depart
        1. to continue to be present
        2. to be held, kept, continually
    2. in reference to time
      1. to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
        1. of persons, to survive, live
    3. in reference to state or condition
      1. to remain as one, not to become another or different
  2. to wait for, await one
 

Earburner

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@Scott Downey
@Phoneman777

Hi ~
OT men over a span of time were given “bits and pieces” of knowledge, with “much Understanding” of the knowledge being “KEPT SECRET”.

Every “natural new born man”, experiences the Same...secularly and spiritually....”bits and pieces” of knowledge, with “much Understanding” of the knowledge .... being a wonderment, believed, doubted, a quiz or sorts.

Jesus “introduced” REVEALINGS “of HOW TO GAIN the Historical KEPT Secrets of “UNDERSTANDING Gods Word...ACCORDING TO...Gods Understanding”.

Scripture is SIMPLY KNOWLEDGE....
* Men “UNDERSTAND” any KNOWLEDGE, by: MINDFULLY....thinking...ciphering...weighing BETWEEN this and that...via
MINDFUL LOGIC....OF “this MAKES SENSE to a mans Natural senses and that DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to a mans Natural senses.


* Seriously...WHO CAN prod, figure, deduce, conclude, Gods Thoughts, Gods Understanding OF GODS OWN WORD....by, through, of A MANS MIND?
* Answer? No one.

Remember a mans carnal mind IS naturally AGAINST God.
Remember the warning, of private interpretation of Gods Word is moot.
Remember the warning, of Philosophers whose ploy was teaching any listener via their own mindful conclusions, Meaning of Gods Word.

THE OFFERING of Jesus’ Knowledge....
THE Lord God Himself...GIVES His Understanding OF the Knowledge of Gods Word...TO men WITH the Lord God......WHO SEEK the Lord Gods UNDERSTANDING, by, through, of the Lord God Himself.

We are fully Aware...Satan KNOWS the Knowledge of Gods Word.
We are fully Aware...Many Men KNOW the Knowledge of Gods Word.
....The Phenomena IS....FEW “individuals” SEEK or RECEIVE and UNDERSTAND the meaning of Gods Word.......According to Having RECEIVED Gods Understanding of Gods own Word.

* God SENT “preachers” to PREACH “the Knowledge of Gods Word”.
* God DID NOT SEND “preachers” to Explain the MEANING/UNDERSTANDING of Gods Word.
* And TODAY’S Dilemma...
* Preachers PREACHING...and Preachers TEACHING a multitude of Gods “supposed Understanding of Gods Own Word”.
* TODAY’S Dilemma...
* Easy peasy....LISTENING MEN...Listening TO other men PREACHING Gods Word....YEAH....Praise and Good...TO HEAR Gods WORD...
* OOPS....the LAZY LISTENER....failing to VERIFY and IN CONTEXT...of WHAT he is HEARING...IS TRUE..according to Gods Contextual Scriptural Written Word.
*
FURTHER OOPS...the LAZY LISTENER....depends on, acquiesces to Whatever the “Preacher” says Gods Word means.......BY DEFAULT “discarding Gods OWN “role” of God Himself giving men His Understanding of His Own Word”.


Prov 2:
[6] For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Something NEW Jesus’ chosen disciples Heard, Learned, Experienced...and Taught that other men MIGHT KNOW and Themselves Experience...

Col 1:
[9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

The BIG PICTURE is “INDIVIDUAL mortal men” electing to Freely Choose to HAVE an Exclusive Ever Lasting, One on One Relationship WITH and IN the Lord God Almighty, DO so, and it IS a One time Forever established Relationship.
( A mortal man
WITH the Lord God, IS NOT secure. That man CAN LEAVE being WITH the Lord God. The Lord God CAN LEAVE being WITH that man.
Security IS a man BEING WITH and IN Christ (the wisdom, power, seed of God)...and Christ (the wisdom, power, seed of God) IN a man.

The WORDLY DECEPTION is “INDIVIDUAL mortal men” perpetually instigating, advocating, preaching....Favorable and/or Unfavorable RELATIONSHIPS “between and among men”........AFFECT a mans Personal One on One Established Relationship WITH the Lord God.

No! That is completely Backwards....An individual mortal mans One on One exclusive Personal Relationship WITH and IN the Lord God....THERE AFTER AFFECTS a mans Personal Relationship with Other men...it does NOT jeopardize an individual mans ever lasting relationship WITH and IN the Lord God.
(And the DILEMMA OF other men...IS: “thinking” “implying” “concluding”... A man WHO HAS an established One on One Relationship WITH and IN God....has been touch with a some Magical Wand that such men will, must, YIELD, AGREE, with (and even BE a doormat), to all other men.). Not so.


Not identifying your particular positions...Just sharing considerations of possibilities of why men disagree.

Glory to God,
Taken
So let's boil all that down to ONE simple question.

Keeping it simple:
1. Was Adam & Eve GIVEN an eternal and Immortal soul, or
2. Did A&E simply become a mortal soul, through the combination of the oxygen craving living cells within their flesh and blood, through God breathing oxygenated air into them?

Remember, Moses had no knowledge whatsoever, of how our flesh, blood and breathing work together, in order to keep the brain cells alive for consciousness.
 

Scott Downey

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To be a JW you have to be scrutinized closely as to doctrine and taught by men to 'know their truths'
However in the NC no man teaches anyone to know the Lord. They are taught by the Lord directly.
If you have to be taught salvation, then it is a lying witness to the scriptures.

A New Covenant​

Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Those of the world will go to their own place and continue to know nothing and those of the Lord will be with Him, forever seated in heavenly places where He will continue revelation for ages to come.
We only know Christ by revelation of the Spirit, not by the teaching of man.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


Let Truth Abide in You​

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to [f]deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you [g]will abide in Him.

The Children of God​

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that [h]when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming


So then who is the Son...
The Son was with God in the beginning and not a created man. He is the Lord from Heaven.

John 1

The Eternal Word​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [a]comprehend it.

John’s Witness: The True Light​

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That[b] was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Becomes Flesh​

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [f]is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

16 [g]And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
 

Taken

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Do we need to speculate -
when the white paint becomes the red paint you want to buy?
when the white milk becomes the chocolate milk you want to drink?
when the unlit bulb becomes the current-conducting bulb we want for light?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and man (literally "dust of the ground") BECAME a living Soul".
Right or wrong, my friend?

Perhaps I study scripture differently.
I am not a person who lived during OT days, yet I read OT mens teaching, with consideration of “their” perspective IN THOSE DAYS, of Gods bit by bit knowledge being revealed and God “withholding” His understanding to particular men. In that context, it is IMO, speculative.

I being born 2,000 + years AFTER Jesus the Christ appeared WITH additional (previously unknown) knowledge and a WAY to Understand that knowledge (according to Gods Understanding)....surpasses, speculation.

Gods Creation...is revealed IN the Early OT.
Gods Making... a change to a Created thing..is revealed IN the Early OT.

Gods FURTHER Making...a change to a Created thing..is further EXPRESSLY DETAILED revealed IN the NT.

As far as Living souls departing a Dead BODY, OT men reveal they KNEW that knowledge. Understood what all that meant, very early on in the OT?
My opinion...no.

Gen 35 Background; Rachel is pregnant, about to deliver. During the delivery...
Rachel’s BODY dies. Rachel’s Living SOUL departs her mortally dying Body.
Rachel’s BODY is buried, (shall commence returning to dust of the earth.)

Gen 35:
[16] And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
[17] And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
[18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
[19] And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

Later in the OT, (1 Kings 17) one man reveals a bit more knowledge and lends, some Understanding of what that meant? My opinion...yes.
Then again Later in the OT. Isaiah 57:16...souls are made by God.
Then in the NT...body’s are dead, buried; Departed Living souls of those Dead Body’s are seeing, hearing, speaking, feeling, having conversations with other Departed Living souls....Luke 16:19-31

1 Kings (17) Background; Elijah, a faithful Godly man is sent to one place, to be nourished, then sent to another place to be nourished by a WIDOW woman and her young son. In those days...Rain is scarce, the Widows provisions for her and her son are scarce...
Elijah is sent to this Widow.
Elijah requests nourishment from the Widow.
** Elijah requests “he” be given nourishment BEFORE the Widow and her son.
** Elijah assures the Widow “regardless of lack of rain her provisions will be sufficiently provided”.
** The Widow does as Elijah requests.
Yes...at that point, a reader can Speculate...will the Widow’s provisions suffice.
** The Widow’s son becomes sick....and the son’s body dies.
Yes...one can speculate the Widow reacted, BLAMING “what about her life had changed” (ie Elijah coming into her life) “as the FAULT of her sons demise”.

Elijah’s Belief, supersedes the duress, blaming and belief of the Widow.
THE act of Elijah...Calling on God...The Response/Act of God...

1 Kings 17:
[17] And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
[18] And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
[19] And he (Elijah) said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
[20] And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
[21] And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
[22] And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

[23] And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

[24] And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

A living soul IN the body, the body is ALIVE.
A living soul OUT of the body, the body is DEAD.
A living soul IN or OUT of a body, remains a LIVING soul.

Living souls CAN BE RETURNED to “DEAD BODY’S” according to Gods WILL...and the Body returns to having LIFE IN that BODY.

WHAT happens to LIVING souls, Departed OUT of DEAD BODY’S, is detailed knowledge given us IN the NT.

Remembering....Jesus arriving and TEACHING knowledge that had been Kept Secret....was a long process, via men traveling, via walking, via camel back, via boats.....and sharing the knowledge by WORD of MOUTH....and when prudent by WRITTEN letters.
THE Process to Spread NEW KNOWLEDGE...was SLOW. (No where near the Instant ability of world wide communication possible today.)

THE Process to COMPILE, the hundreds of ORAL preaching/teaching, the hundreds of SCRIBES of “their” hand written dictations....and the Determinations of appointed “RECORDERS” (to make a compilation of SCRIPTS/ SCROLLS....pursuant to “SCRIBES text”....)
AND.... with regard to: WHICH SCRIBES, were writing texts, making copies, distributing them........AND WHO SUCH SCRIBES WERE “making dictations OF WHOSE Speech”.....
*Prophets and Disciples had Scribes...
*Kings had Scribes...(still do)
*Barrons (by whatever so called title...wealthy men with influence...had Scribes...(still do)

Point being...Prophets, Disciples, and the Scribes thereof are LEAD by the Spirit of God, to WRITE, according to Gods Will.

THEN as TODAY....Kings (or by whatever Governing title they are called) and Barrons (or by whatever Influential title they are called) ... Have SCRIBES to dictate, copy and disseminate their “thoughts and belief”.... to further their Personal Agenda, which has NOTHING to DO with Gods WILL.

The WHOLE point of a Compiling a SINGLE BOOK of Gods Word, as God Himself taught TO His Prophets and appointed Apostles....was expressly for the Benefit of World wide mankind to VERIFY what men HEAR and ARE TOLD regarding Gods Word.

And 2,000+years later....the world continues spinning....Men reject Hearing, Men are satisfied to believe what they do Hear, without Verifying....
And in particularly the last several Decades Hundreds of conflicting texts written, published, distributed.....all purporting to be Gods Word.

AND? Men are side-lined debating, arguing, disagreeing, committing to warring BECAUSE of a man-made debacle of ignorance, lies and confusion.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Taken

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So let's boil all that down to ONE simple question.

Keeping it simple:
1. Was Adam & Eve GIVEN an eternal and Immortal soul, or
2. Did A&E simply become a mortal soul, through the combination of the oxygen craving living cells within their flesh and blood, through God breathing oxygenated air into them?

Remember, Moses had no knowledge whatsoever, of how our flesh, blood and breathing work together, in order to keep the brain cells alive for consciousness.
Adam and Eve were CREATED/Bodily Formed and THEN MADE ALIVE.
The BODY IS mortal and IS (BY Gods Word, Desire)...sentenced to DIE.
The SOUL IS not mortal and IS (BY Gods Word, Desire)....taught THE SOUL CAN be Forgiven its Sin, Saved, OR Not Forgiven, Not Saved, and ultimately DESTROYED.

DEATH of a BODY....IS physical separation from God.
DEATH of a SOUL....IS spiritual separation from God.

Numerous BODY’S have lived and died and are physically separated from God.
ALL SOULS...in living body’s or departed out of dead bodys.....ARE ALL STILL LIVING SOULS.

Some Living souls IN living body’s ARE “spiritually separated from God...called “unsaved”....called “spiritually dead”.

Some Living souls IN living body’s ARE “spiritually with God....called “non-converted” Believers.

Some Living souls IN livings body’s ARE “spiritually with and In Christ...called “Converted”, called “Saved”, called “Quickened”, called “Born Again”, called “SEALED unto God”, called “born of God”, called “a son of God”.

Per your Question ....Was Adam and Eve “given an IMMORTAL soul”....? No.
Was Adam’s soul SAVED? Yes.
Does Gods Works of SAVING a soul, thereafter KEEP that Living soul ALIVE forever? Yes.

(Remembering God created a man and a woman and Called ‘THEM’ ADAM...
It was the male who named the woman Eve, not God. Nor did God ever call the woman “Eve”. )

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Brakelite

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Perhaps I study scripture differently.
I am not a person who lived during OT days, yet I read OT mens teaching, with consideration of “their” perspective IN THOSE DAYS, of Gods bit by bit knowledge being revealed and God “withholding” His understanding to particular men. In that context, it is IMO, speculative.

I being born 2,000 + years AFTER Jesus the Christ appeared WITH additional (previously unknown) knowledge and a WAY to Understand that knowledge (according to Gods Understanding)....surpasses, speculation.

Gods Creation...is revealed IN the Early OT.
Gods Making... a change to a Created thing..is revealed IN the Early OT.

Gods FURTHER Making...a change to a Created thing..is further EXPRESSLY DETAILED revealed IN the NT.

As far as Living souls departing a Dead BODY, OT men reveal they KNEW that knowledge. Understood what all that meant, very early on in the OT?
My opinion...no.

Gen 35 Background; Rachel is pregnant, about to deliver. During the delivery...
Rachel’s BODY dies. Rachel’s Living SOUL departs her mortally dying Body.
Rachel’s BODY is buried, (shall commence returning to dust of the earth.)

Gen 35:
[16] And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
[17] And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
[18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
[19] And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

Later in the OT, (1 Kings 17) one man reveals a bit more knowledge and lends, some Understanding of what that meant? My opinion...yes.
Then again Later in the OT. Isaiah 57:16...souls are made by God.
Then in the NT...body’s are dead, buried; Departed Living souls of those Dead Body’s are seeing, hearing, speaking, feeling, having conversations with other Departed Living souls....Luke 16:19-31

1 Kings (17) Background; Elijah, a faithful Godly man is sent to one place, to be nourished, then sent to another place to be nourished by a WIDOW woman and her young son. In those days...Rain is scarce, the Widows provisions for her and her son are scarce...
Elijah is sent to this Widow.
Elijah requests nourishment from the Widow.
** Elijah requests “he” be given nourishment BEFORE the Widow and her son.
** Elijah assures the Widow “regardless of lack of rain her provisions will be sufficiently provided”.
** The Widow does as Elijah requests.
Yes...at that point, a reader can Speculate...will the Widow’s provisions suffice.
** The Widow’s son becomes sick....and the son’s body dies.
Yes...one can speculate the Widow reacted, BLAMING “what about her life had changed” (ie Elijah coming into her life) “as the FAULT of her sons demise”.

Elijah’s Belief, supersedes the duress, blaming and belief of the Widow.
THE act of Elijah...Calling on God...The Response/Act of God...

1 Kings 17:
[17] And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
[18] And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
[19] And he (Elijah) said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
[20] And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
[21] And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
[22] And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

[23] And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

[24] And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

A living soul IN the body, the body is ALIVE.
A living soul OUT of the body, the body is DEAD.
A living soul IN or OUT of a body, remains a LIVING soul.

Living souls CAN BE RETURNED to “DEAD BODY’S” according to Gods WILL...and the Body returns to having LIFE IN that BODY.

WHAT happens to LIVING souls, Departed OUT of DEAD BODY’S, is detailed knowledge given us IN the NT.

Remembering....Jesus arriving and TEACHING knowledge that had been Kept Secret....was a long process, via men traveling, via walking, via camel back, via boats.....and sharing the knowledge by WORD of MOUTH....and when prudent by WRITTEN letters.
THE Process to Spread NEW KNOWLEDGE...was SLOW. (No where near the Instant ability of world wide communication possible today.)

THE Process to COMPILE, the hundreds of ORAL preaching/teaching, the hundreds of SCRIBES of “their” hand written dictations....and the Determinations of appointed “RECORDERS” (to make a compilation of SCRIPTS/ SCROLLS....pursuant to “SCRIBES text”....)
AND.... with regard to: WHICH SCRIBES, were writing texts, making copies, distributing them........AND WHO SUCH SCRIBES WERE “making dictations OF WHOSE Speech”.....
*Prophets and Disciples had Scribes...
*Kings had Scribes...(still do)
*Barrons (by whatever so called title...wealthy men with influence...had Scribes...(still do)

Point being...Prophets, Disciples, and the Scribes thereof are LEAD by the Spirit of God, to WRITE, according to Gods Will.

THEN as TODAY....Kings (or by whatever Governing title they are called) and Barrons (or by whatever Influential title they are called) ... Have SCRIBES to dictate, copy and disseminate their “thoughts and belief”.... to further their Personal Agenda, which has NOTHING to DO with Gods WILL.

The WHOLE point of a Compiling a SINGLE BOOK of Gods Word, as God Himself taught TO His Prophets and appointed Apostles....was expressly for the Benefit of World wide mankind to VERIFY what men HEAR and ARE TOLD regarding Gods Word.

And 2,000+years later....the world continues spinning....Men reject Hearing, Men are satisfied to believe what they do Hear, without Verifying....
And in particularly the last several Decades Hundreds of conflicting texts written, published, distributed.....all purporting to be Gods Word.

AND? Men are side-lined debating, arguing, disagreeing, committing to warring BECAUSE of a man-made debacle of ignorance, lies and confusion.

Glory to God,
Taken
You mistakenly believe Moses was writing his own words from his own limited intellectual and spiritual understanding. You are denying the inspiration of the OT. INSPIRATION.. THE Holy Spirit... Said, man became a living soul. A living being. That living being was given an opportunity to live forever if he met certain conditions. He failed. Man disobeyed, the conditions to immortality were not met, their man continued to be mortal, and died. This understanding, this inspired Truth that Moses wrote, formed the framework and foundation for all subsequent truth regarding the nature of man. The concept that some part of man does not die, is a lie, it began with the devil in the garden "ye shall not surely die" and had been packed from pulpits ever since, and that little lie had given birth to other lies... Eternal torment being one of them.
There is only one Who is immortal. God. God is Spirit. Therefore there is only one immortal Spirit. God. Not man. Man's Spirit dies. It does not, it cannot live forever in torment seeing it is mortal.
Fire both cleanses and destroys. It cleanses those who are Christ's, it destroys those who aren't.
Anything else insults the God who created us. Eternal torment insults the Creator. It calls His justice into question. It calls His character into question. It calls Him a liar. It calls His wisdom insufficient to bring a conclusion to sin, but demands that sin become a perpetual blight upon creation.
While there will remain some mysteries on the nature of creation, including ourselves, certain truths have been revealed... Let us cleave to those truths and if anything appears to contradict them, don't change the truth, but wait upon the Lord for greater light.
Keeping life simple.
 

Earburner

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Adam and Eve were CREATED/Bodily Formed and THEN MADE ALIVE.
The BODY IS mortal and IS (BY Gods Word, Desire)...sentenced to DIE.
The SOUL IS not mortal and IS (BY Gods Word, Desire)....taught THE SOUL CAN be Forgiven its Sin, Saved, OR Not Forgiven, Not Saved, and ultimately DESTROYED.

DEATH of a BODY....IS physical separation from God.
DEATH of a SOUL....IS spiritual separation from God.

Numerous BODY’S have lived and died and are physically separated from God.
ALL SOULS...in living body’s or departed out of dead bodys.....ARE ALL STILL LIVING SOULS.

Some Living souls IN living body’s ARE “spiritually separated from God...called “unsaved”....called “spiritually dead”.

Some Living souls IN living body’s ARE “spiritually with God....called “non-converted” Believers.

Some Living souls IN livings body’s ARE “spiritually with and In Christ...called “Converted”, called “Saved”, called “Quickened”, called “Born Again”, called “SEALED unto God”, called “born of God”, called “a son of God”.

Per your Question ....Was Adam and Eve “given an IMMORTAL soul”....? No.
Was Adam’s soul SAVED? Yes.
Does Gods Works of SAVING a soul, thereafter KEEP that Living soul ALIVE forever? Yes.

(Remembering God created a man and a woman and Called ‘THEM’ ADAM...
It was the male who named the woman Eve, not God. Nor did God ever call the woman “Eve”. )

Glory to God,
Taken
So your answer is, keeping it simple and brief, is that God gave "Adam" an eternal, immortal soul. Apparently, at some time later, God gave "Eve" an eternal, immortal soul also.
death is defined here:

James 2:26
King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
The word "spirit" (G4151) in the above context:
Strong's Number - G4151
Greek: πνεῦμα
Transliteration: pneuma
Pronunciation: pnyoo'-mah
Definition: From G4154; a current of [oxygenated]** air that is breath (blast)
or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit that is (human) the rational soul (by implication) vital principle mental disposition etc.
or (superhuman) an angel daemon
or (divine) God Christ´s spirit the Holy spirit : - ghost life spirit (-ual -ually) mind. Compare G5590 .[aka the Mind of Christ]**,
[or the mind of an evil spirit]**.

^ ** Note: [my additional comments].


KJV Usage: Spirit (111x), Holy Ghost (89x), Spirit (of God) (13x), Spirit (of the Lord) (5x), (My) Spirit (3x), Spirit (of truth) (3x), Spirit (of Christ) (2x), human (spirit) (49x), (evil) spirit (47x), spirit (general) (26x), spirit (8x), (Jesus' own) spirit (6x), (Jesus' own) ghost (2x), misc (21x).
Occurs: 385
In verses: 350
 
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Scott Downey

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You mistakenly believe Moses was writing his own words from his own limited intellectual and spiritual understanding. You are denying the inspiration of the OT. INSPIRATION.. THE Holy Spirit... Said, man became a living soul. A living being. That living being was given an opportunity to live forever if he met certain conditions. He failed. Man disobeyed, the conditions to immortality were not met, their man continued to be mortal, and died. This understanding, this inspired Truth that Moses wrote, formed the framework and foundation for all subsequent truth regarding the nature of man. The concept that some part of man does not die, is a lie, it began with the devil in the garden "ye shall not surely die" and had been packed from pulpits ever since, and that little lie had given birth to other lies... Eternal torment being one of them.
There is only one Who is immortal. God. God is Spirit. Therefore there is only one immortal Spirit. God. Not man. Man's Spirit dies. It does not, it cannot live forever in torment seeing it is mortal.
Fire both cleanses and destroys. It cleanses those who are Christ's, it destroys those who aren't.
Anything else insults the God who created us. Eternal torment insults the Creator. It calls His justice into question. It calls His character into question. It calls Him a liar. It calls His wisdom insufficient to bring a conclusion to sin, but demands that sin become a perpetual blight upon creation.
While there will remain some mysteries on the nature of creation, including ourselves, certain truths have been revealed... Let us cleave to those truths and if anything appears to contradict them, don't change the truth, but wait upon the Lord for greater light.
Keeping life simple.
About the JW doctrine of the soul ceasing to exist at death until the resurrection, what Jesus says proves it a lie.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

JW's say if you kill someone, you murder them body and soul as a complete individual unit.
 
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Taken

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You mistakenly believe Moses was writing his own words from his own limited intellectual and spiritual understanding. You are denying the inspiration of the OT. INSPIRATION.. THE Holy Spirit... Said, man became a living soul. A living being. That living being was given an opportunity to live forever if he met certain conditions. He failed. Man disobeyed, the conditions to immortality were not met, their man continued to be mortal, and died. This understanding, this inspired Truth that Moses wrote, formed the framework and foundation for all subsequent truth regarding the nature of man. The concept that some part of man does not die, is a lie, it began with the devil in the garden "ye shall not surely die" and had been packed from pulpits ever since, and that little lie had given birth to other lies... Eternal torment being one of them.
There is only one Who is immortal. God. God is Spirit. Therefore there is only one immortal Spirit. God. Not man. Man's Spirit dies. It does not, it cannot live forever in torment seeing it is mortal.
Fire both cleanses and destroys. It cleanses those who are Christ's, it destroys those who aren't.
Anything else insults the God who created us. Eternal torment insults the Creator. It calls His justice into question. It calls His character into question. It calls Him a liar. It calls His wisdom insufficient to bring a conclusion to sin, but demands that sin become a perpetual blight upon creation.
While there will remain some mysteries on the nature of creation, including ourselves, certain truths have been revealed... Let us cleave to those truths and if anything appears to contradict them, don't change the truth, but wait upon the Lord for greater light.
Keeping life simple.
1) I never said or implied any such thing about Moses writing without Gods inspiration.

2) The Earth was Created / Formed out of Water.

3) Man was Created / Formed out of mans habitat / Earth.

4) Life OF the man IS BLOOD.

5) BLOOD, Organs, Systems, Senses OF and IN a man are maintained, BY the nutrients, minerals, vitamins IN the Earth.

Keeping LIFE SIMPLE....the end.

OOPS...WITHOUT a LIVING LIFE SOURCE, the CREATED man’s LIFE is NOT MADE ALIVE.

* You quote Scripture, that man BECAME a Living soul.
* Then you continue to SPEAK about “MAN”. As if the MAN that BECAME a Living soul....didn’t BECOME something else...but IS STILL a “MAN”.

*
HOW, in your words; IS that LIFE SIMPLE?

If I take metal and FORM it into a TRUCK and then change the TRUCK into a CAR, it BECOMES a CAR. I no longer call it a TRUCK.

* IF you study scripture, you would discover, God CREATES and MAKES something UNIQUE pertaining TO His specific CREATIONS.

*
God CREATES: that which DID NOT EXIST...
By...His WILL of WHAT He desires, (ie His Pleasure)
Thorough...His WORD of that which He speaks,
Of ..................His POWER, (His supreme authority/ability).

* God “IS” LIFE. Nothing, IS Created, IS Made “ALIVE” without:
CREATED —->VIA....His Will, His Word, His Power......
MADE ALIVE—-> HIS LIFE.

* AN earthly (ie Terrestrial) MAN....IS Created.
* AN earthly (ie Terrestrial) MAN....IS Made “ALIVE”, via Gods BREATH/ IN a SOUL, imparted “INTO” a Created/Formed man.

Gen 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That form-ED man was a complet-ED BODY.
That BODY Complet-ED Form-ED BODY...did nothing.
It had BLOOD...which did not flow.
It had ORGANS...which did not function.
It had SYSTEMS...which did not function.
It had LUNGS...which did not breath.
It had FLESH...which did not Feel touch.
It had EARS...which did not Hear.
It had EYES...which did not See.
It had a NOSE...which did not Smell.
It had a TONGUE...which did not Speak.
It had a MOUTH...which did not Eat.

That FORM-ED MAN/body was NOT ALIVE......UNTIL...
Gen 2:
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

As Scripture itself says regarding the FIRST male and female God called BY THE NAME; Adam...Scripture itself says He Created and Made them.
Created them From the (elements of their own Habitat Earth)
Made them Alive (with His Breath of Life, in a soul, Blown INTO their Created Body’s)

Gen 5:
[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

ALL LIFE, IN a MAN, is CALLED by the mans NAME.

....BLOOD LIFE IN the BODY, is called by that mans NAME.
....SOUL LIFE IN the BODY, is called by that mans NAME.
....SPIRIT LIFE IN the BODY, is called by that mans NAME.

Nothing “SIMPLE” about understanding a MAN”S LIFE...
* Nothing “SIMPLE” about understanding a man’s BLOOD Life is MORTAL, TEMPORARY, IS sentenced TO DIE.
* Nothing “SIMPLE” about understanding a man’s SOUL life is SPIRITUAL, is OF God, Belongs TO God, that God MAY ... NOT IMPART, or IMPART, and DEPART, and RE-IMPART, May WITHHOLD, May GIVE, May TAKE AWAY...
Gods SOUL LIFE IN or OUT of a mans BODY....AS and WHEN God pleases.

What we SHOULD KNOW, is a man in the PROCESS of Form-ING, is NOT an “independent” Form-ED individual. That “Form-ING” body is “indirectly” dependent on the Female’s BLOOD LIFE. “Indirectly” being separated FROM the Females LIFE, via a Temporary Placenta. The Form-ING man, receives nutrients indirectly FROM the Females BLOOD Life, and the Form-ING man, discards waste directly to the Placenta.

What we SHOULD KNOW, as in ADAMS case; Adam was a completely FORM-ed individual, WITHOUT “dependency” on ANY LIFE source...UNTIL God BLEW His soul WITH Gods BREATH (LIFE) into that completely FORM-ED man-Kind of “THING”. (Body).


THE GREAT DEBATE...
WHEN does LIFE “of” a man-KIND of thing BEGIN?
Not a mystery...LIFE of a man-KIND of thing BEGINS at “conception”.
Also NOT a mystery...FAITH of a man BEGINS by “hearing”.
Also NOT a mystery...A BEGINNING is NOT an ENDING.
Also NOT a mystery...An “ENDING” of a man-KIND of thing’s “FORM-ING”, is Established, “FORM-ED”, it’s OWN “independent” LIFE, WHEN it is Severed from the “indirect” connection (via the temporary placenta) of the Female.

The “conception” has occurred. The “conceiving” has occurred. The “expectation” is the delivering forth of a “man-KIND” of thing. The “form-ing” is Occurring (via the Dependency Indirect Placenta). The “waiting” for Form-ing completion is approximately 9 months. The “delivery” to bring forth the “expected” man-KIND of bodily thing, occurs, Called BORN. The man-Kind of bodily thing, is Severed from the Placenta, and THEN is an Individual man-KIND of thing........that neither, hears, sees, smells, feels, Speaks, IS ALIVE......
UNTIL....God BLOWS “His soul”, with “His Breath of LIFE”...INTO the Nostrils of that FORM-ED man-KIND of thing.


THAT FORMED ALIVE BODY (man-KIND of thing)....IS against God.
THAT IMPARTED LIVING SOUL “IN” a Bodily man-KIND of thing...
IS DIRECTLY “NEGATIVELY” AFFECTED by, through, of the BODY which IS against God.

IF and WHEN....that individually Formed Body...BEGINS “hearing”...GOD WORD, “A PROCESS BEGINS”...
God BLESSES that BODY “with measures of FAITH”.
IF that BODY, continues Hearing...that body’s measure of Gods Gift of FAITH Increases.
IF that BODY, BELIEVES the Word of God it’s ears are Hearing...that body’s

Measure of Gods Gift of FAITH Increases.

IF that body...continues hearing, continues believing....FAITH increases.
IF that body...Rejects hearing, Rejects believing...FAITH given ceases.
THAT bodily man is called.....Fallen FROM Faith.

Same as A Living soul IN a mans BODY IS “negatively AGAINST” God (per his Natural Birth)....A mans independent FORMED BODY, that freely chooses, TO HEAR Gods Word, BELIEVE Gods Word, Receive Gods Gift of FAITH....
That Living soul IN that mans BODY “BEGINS to BECOME “positively WITH God”...


We have an Mercy Offering... OF God... by, through, of Gods Word (Jesus) and Gods Wisdom (Christ) and Gods Power (Christ) to Become “MADE” Bodily and Soul Forgiven, “MADE”, Bodily “a promise of A NEW BODY”, “MADE” a “promise of A mans soul to BE “MADE” SAVED after a BODILY DEATH”, “MADE”, spiritually given a NEW born again spirit ... by, through, of Gods Word (Jesus), Gods Power (Christ), Gods Seed (Christ)...
* Establishing, Accomplishing the Fulfillment of a NEW, once and forever,
Ever-Living Bodily Life, Ever-Living Soul LIfe, Ever-Living Spirit LIfe...

WITH the Ever-Living Lord God Almighty OF THAT ONE individual man-KIND of Created and MADE and REMADE thing.

NOTHING Simple about the LIFE of a Man-KIND created....MADE and REMADE Kind of creature.
Rather it IS Complex, The “KNOWLEDGE” thereof Detailed bit by bit, according to Gods Word, ORDER and WAY.

* Gods Creation IS ONE thing. The Results easily visibly SEEN by a terrestrial earthly mans EYES.
* Gods MAKING and REMAKING is spiritual, phenomenal, secret, hidden, NOT visibly SEEN by a terrestrial earthly mans EYES.

Praise and Glory to our Great Lord God Almighty,
Taken
 
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Taken

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So your answer is, keeping it simple and brief, is that God gave "Adam" an eternal, immortal soul. Apparently, at some time later, God gave "Eve" an eternal, immortal soul also.

The word "spirit" (G4151) in the above context:
Strong's Number - G4151
Greek: πνεῦμα
Transliteration: pneuma
Pronunciation: pnyoo'-mah
Definition: From G4154; a current of [oxygenated]** air that is breath (blast)
or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit that is (human) the rational soul (by implication) vital principle mental disposition etc.
or (superhuman) an angel daemon
or (divine) God Christ´s spirit the Holy spirit : - ghost life spirit (-ual -ually) mind. Compare G5590 .[aka the Mind of Christ]**,
[or the mind of an evil spirit]**.

^ ** Note: [my additional comments].


KJV Usage: Spirit (111x), Holy Ghost (89x), Spirit (of God) (13x), Spirit (of the Lord) (5x), (My) Spirit (3x), Spirit (of truth) (3x), Spirit (of Christ) (2x), human (spirit) (49x), (evil) spirit (47x), spirit (general) (26x), spirit (8x), (Jesus' own) spirit (6x), (Jesus' own) ghost (2x), misc (21x).
Occurs: 385
In verses: 350
God IS Spirit. God IS Life. Be it His BREATH He Blows IN you or ON you IS Gods Spirit Life “IN” you and/or “ON” you.

Gods “SEED” is Also Gods LIFE.......As is Everything that IS “IN” God, or that which “COMES Forth from out from God, Yet continues to Remain “IN” God, “IS” God, “IS” Life.

Gods “BREATH” thus can be given of God ... “IN or UPON” a man.
Gods “BREATH” is given a man “IN a soul”, and “INTO” a man.
...A soul, and Gods Breath IN the soul, LEAVES a mans BODY, WHEN the Body mortally DIES.
Gods “BREATH” can be also given “UPON” a man.
...Gods BREATH UPON a man CAN LEAVE a man, IF that man rejects God.

Gods “SEED” is NOT given of God, “UPON” a man.
Gods “SEED” is ONLY given of God, “IN” a man.
Gods “SEED” is expressly given “IN” a man, WHOM God has “circumcised” that mans HEART...cut off the mans NATURAL born spirit (ie Natural TRUTH),
And given that man “A NEW HEART”, with a NEW TRUTH (Gods Word), with a NEW SEED, (God Seed), that which BIRTHS that man a NEW SPIRIT.


Gods LIFE in His Breath is specifically one thing.
Gods LIFE in His Seed is specifically another thing.
Each is derived FROM the SAME ONE source...God WHO IS SPIRIT.

Glory to God,
Take
 
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Brakelite

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I
About the JW doctrine of the soul ceasing to exist at death until the resurrection, what Jesus says proves it a lie.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

JW's say if you kill someone, you murder them body and soul as a complete individual unit.
I agree, they have not yet ceased to exist. An individual is not yet destroyed utterly until the lake of fire. Meanwhile we sleep, until one or other of the 2 resurrections.
 
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Keiw

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Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Symbolism, there is no literal eternal suffering. The lake of fire = eternal destruction.
 

Brakelite

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About the JW doctrine of the soul ceasing to exist at death until the resurrection, what Jesus says proves it a lie.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

JW's say if you kill someone, you murder them body and soul as a complete individual unit.
What did Jesus mean when He said that the person could be destroyed both body and soul?
 

Scott Downey

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What did Jesus mean when He said that the person could be destroyed both body and soul?
At the resurrection at the great white throne final judgement, all the dead are resurrected, meaning to put a spirit, soul, back into a body.
They are judged and if their names are not found in the book of life, (they won't be as the believers went to be with Christ in heaven at their deaths, but God is fair). These people with a resurrected body, the angels then cast into hell- the lake of fire are all combined and they are destroyed, experience everlasting fire in some way, a very unpleasant experience for sure, worse than the hell they came out from earlier.


All these dead had no part in the first resurrection which is only for the holy saved people of God.
There is a resurrection of the just, and a resurrection of the wicked.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

It makes sense then when Jesus says God will destroy both body and soul in hell.

Rev 20

The Judgment of the Dead​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 

Scott Downey

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The first resurrection is when believers get their new body.
The first resurrection is for the righteous who God has justified

The rest of the dead God raises up at the final judgement.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 

Scott Downey

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The order of resurrection
First Christ
Second those who are Christ's at His second appearing.
Third then comes the end, known as the final judgement.

Refer to Revelation 20 as confirmation of this

1 Corinthians 15

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.


25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
 
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Scott Downey

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But back to phoneman's original question, which everyone seems to want to avoid. Is Jesus suffering eternally? If not, what are the implications for the atonement?
I answered it, already in this thread. Christ is not suffering forever, Peter writes he suffered once for sins.
 
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