Another simple disproof of Amil: No more sea

[Timtofly]

You're avoiding the issue here. It is your belief that when it talks about the meek inheriting the earth that they are just inheriting it for a temporary period of time, right? That makes the meek inheriting the earth have far less meaning then what I believe it means, which is that the meek will inherit the renewed (new) earth for eternity.

It does not say anywhere that the meek shall inherit an entirely separate earth from this one after first inheriting this earth, as you believe.

It does not say they will die either. You assume these meek have been dying for 6,000 years. You assume that 1,000 years is not a long time. You assume they are resurrected. The only thing you don't get is what was actually stated. They inherit this current created earth. It does not say they inherit the kingdom of heaven. It does not even say they inherit the kingdom of God.

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."

One could assume the meek get ripped off as they only inherit an earth that you claim is going to be burnt up. It never says the new earth I will create in the future.

Of course they get both this earth and the earth to come. The only difference is Amil complain 1,000 years is too short to enjoy. The meek only get around 50 to 100 years to enjoy the earth as it is now. Those meek at the Second Coming get 1,000 years.


Surely the meek who have already died don't have to settle for the earth. If redeemed they currently enjoy Paradise that heavenly kingdom. They already inherited more than the verse claims. Those living in the New Jerusalem are not said to leave their home and settle on the earth. That seems like some made up fantasy of one's personal taste and fulfillment. I am not saying they are wrong. I am saying how literal do you take this verse, and why are the meek stuck with the earth, when every one else gets something different?

Either they already inherit the earth, or there will be some alive at the Second Coming who inherit current earth for another 1,000 years without death and decay. Your argument makes nonsense out of a clear statement. 1,000 years is not short compared to current living standards. I am sure those sons of God before the Flood, thought their earth would go on forever. That was thousands of years ago. So how did they define their forever any different than you do?

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. He didn't say "I will replace all things with completely different things". He said "I make all things new". Big difference. Things will be changed (including our bodies - 1 Cor 15:51-52), not annihilated completely and replaced with entirely different things.

That is exactly what new things are, new.

It does not say, "I will make the old things new". You are not placing it in the context with:

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

Of course this means all new things. Not old things changed into new things.

We get totally different bodies. We don't get Adam's bodies back and changed. Adam's flesh changed or not, cannot enter Paradise. That is why you all must think Lazarus had to die again. Even a changed Adam body cannot enter Paradise to you all. You claim it has to die a second time to be changed yet again the third time. How does that make any sense? Lazarus was given a permanent incorruptible physical body from God. He ascended with the rest of those who were redeemed out of Abraham's bosom. Jesus made the point that even if Lazarus were to return to earth, many would still reject Jesus as the Christ. If they did not believe Moses and the prophets, not even a resurrected body would change their belief. Yet some today claim Lazarus did not even have a resurrection body. They claim God did not resurrect Lazarus but just made him suffer in Adam's dead flesh only to die all over again physically. Not even a physical resurrection can change your all's minds. Do you think you will be treated better than you claim Lazarus was?

Jesus specifically waited for 3 days. That was important. If Jesus was just going to heal and change Lazarus as you all claim, He would have done so days before Lazarus was buried. Lazarus was dead longer than Jesus was in the tomb. Yet you deny the same resurrection that all have with a new permanent incorruptible physical body, instead of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[Timtofly]

Not exactly.
Sin and death and the curse still remained. Those things were not present when God first declared all things as very good from the foundation of the world.

So then the earth was not destroyed by water at the Flood, just like it will not be destroyed by fire at the Second Coming?

You cannot have one destroying it differently just because it makes your eschatology sound better. Either it was destroyed or it was not destroyed. Since Peter claimed it was destroyed the same way in both events, then the new earth happened after both events. Sin is a human condition. The effects of Adam's punishment of the earth was death and decay, not sin. Sin was the new state of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The continual state of disobedience to God. Only submitting by faith to the Holy Spirit allows us obedience to God.

Sin, death, and decay will not stop until Daniel's 70 weeks are over. The promises of Daniel 9:24 are a new creation, not just spiritual promises. Sin, death, and decay were not removed at the Cross. There was not a new earth after the Cross. Unless you are going to spiritualize the Flood of Noah, and claimed it did not physically happen, then your cannot spiritualize Daniel's 70 weeks ending, and that fire is a spiritual end at the Second Coming.

The only thing you seem to accept as physical is the Second Coming. That is only because you reject the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth without sin, death, and decay. Then you try to say there has been no sin, death, and decay symbolically since the Cross, when that is as much a physical reality promised as the spiritual reality you claim is in place.

You have no proof that all the sons of God rebelled against God, and a few of Adam's dead corruptible flesh offspring were found righteous prior to the Flood. Adam's punishment was not over. The Flood was to wipe out all the rebel sons of God. There was a new and different earth after the Flood. To say otherwise is just foolish.

Not only did most of the water above the firmament, heaven come down through heaven, so that water was once more on the earth, adding volumes of water changed earth from that point on, and the land that was one continent was broken up into continents. That did not take millions of years to happen. That happened in a few days. This earth is only 7,000 years old. Evolution is a virtual reality perception using Satan's math and science/knowledge that was already at work in Paul's day.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The path of science that led to evolution started by Satan before the first century. Satan was already at work destroying the writings of Moses in the hearts and minds of the Greeks and Romans with their mythology and science/knowledge.

 

[robert derrick]

This is simply not true. The current cursed creation is going to be glorified when Jesus comes. The bondage of corruption is going to be purged from it. Your theology forces you to reject this. This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered coat with another decayed coat, as many imagine, with their faulty theology. No! But rather a new perfected garment. Death and decay will soon come to an end. But this does not negate the continued existence of the same the earth. It will be an ongoing trophy of God's glorious regenerational renewal.

Psalm 102:25-27 predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

Isaiah 51:6 also says, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.”

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish (apollumi); but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old (palaioo) as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed (allasso): but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

These passages confirm the reality of the ongoing existence of the bondage of corruption at the moment. This will all change when Jesus comes. Comparing this earth to a fading and deteriorating garment, the writer tells us that the current heavens and earth is waxing old. The Greek word employed here for “wax old” is palaioo which means worn out, decaying or to declare obsolete.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old/temporal and wicked and introduces the beginning of all things new/eternal and righteous. The second coming witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement. The wicked and the righteous are judged in total and that each receives their eternal destiny at that time. The conflagration that occurs here coincides with the replacement of this corrupt sin-cursed world with a new earth and an eternally righteous state.

This change is evidently seismic. It is so drastic that it will be as if the earth was annihilated and replaced by another earth. That is because the destructive and debilitating curse of corruption is finally and eternally purged by fire from the globe. Like the repentant sinner, this earth has received its emersion in water, it is now awaiting its baptism of fire.

Just as we have become a new creation in Christ, yet we remain the self-same entity, so it is with this current earth when He appears. 2 Corinthians 5:17 teaches: “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

It would have been great if this had meant that my old nature was completely eliminated and that I had become completely brand new, although, in a spiritual sense I did – even though my physical appearance remained exactly the same. This did not mean that the core “us” did not continue. It did! But our spiritual outward covering was forever changed. We are now clothed with His perfect righteousness. That will be realized in all it literal and physical fullness at the second coming. This is a strong reason to think the earth is going to undergo similar.

The Greek is fairly strong and would suggest a destruction of the old corruptible state of fallen creation and an introduction of the new eternal state. This does not necessarily mean that this earth will disappear; it could mean that through fiery regeneration this present earth will be brought back to its former condition. In this cosmic renewal, everything that is outside of God and possesses any vestige of the fall will be either burnt up or changed.

Every vestige of the fall is removed when Christ comes – never to arise again. A new earth will come-forth that is totally renewed and eternally free of corruption. When man fell all creation fell with him, when man is glorified, all of creation will be glorified with him. Creation is delivered from the curse by the fiery conflagration that regenerates this current earth and renews it to the state it was before the fall - free from, sin, wickedness, the wicked, death and wars (the awful plagues that continue to blight the Premil millennium).

Disagree for reasons given.

You just keep repeating yourself. Maybe just pasting.

Unless you come up with something new,, we're done on this topic.

 

[robert derrick]

This is all fizz and bubble. No Amil I know believes or teaches this. Ironically it is the JWs that promote your millennial theology along with many of the other cults.

Everything you don't like is fizz and bubble, so you just paste your usual stuff over it.

JW's reject Jesus' personal reign on earth for a thousand years, as you do.

 

[robert derrick]

This earth will not be eliminated.

Still getting it wrong on purpose.

This earth will be burnt, melted, and fleeing away forever from the face of God.

Along with wicked angels and men.

 

[WPM]

Disagree for reasons given.

You just keep repeating yourself. Maybe just pasting.

Unless you come up with something new,, we're done on this topic.

That is usual mantra when you are cornered. You have no rebuttal to the truth. The sacred text forbids your error.

 

[robert derrick]

How long is forever in your estimation?

Never ending.

Like some debates being endless.

 

[robert derrick]

Does the animal life, trees and planets die or decay? Is this present earth decaying?

Yes. All natural things on earth were and are created naturally mortal, whether grass or flesh.

When man sins, sin enters into the world by sinning, not natural grass and flesh, which is made mortal by Christ everyday.

It's the soul that dies by sinning, not the earth, because the earth cannot sin nor do good, but just be the earth as created.

Being born with sin nature is used by OSAS hypoctries to excuse still sinning, as well as say they are no more condemned, when their mortal bodies sin.

 

[robert derrick]

It is your belief that when it talks about the meek inheriting the earth that they are just inheriting it for a temporary period of time, right?

As I said, this earth yes. The meek will no more be inheriting it, when God burns it up.

That makes the meek inheriting the earth have far less meaning then what I believe it means, which is that the meek will inherit the renewed (new) earth for eternity.

As I said, so do I.

You're either not reading, or not caring what I write.

It does not say anywhere that the meek shall inherit an entirely separate earth from this one after first inheriting this earth, as you believe.

True, but I still believe it will include the new earth, once this one is burned up.

Unless of course, no one is inheriting the new earth, because God Himself dwells on it.

That may be possible. That is when God and the Lamb Himself will be the meek's inheritance.

 

[robert derrick]

Paul goes on to say this...,

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


That would be all unbelievers being eternally punished at the Lords appearing to glorify us. Very specific.

True. In the first part at His second appearing, He will only destroy them troubling the saints for years before.

At the last resurrection of the rest of the dead, all them not found in the book of life will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

 

[jeffweeder]

So then the earth was not destroyed by water at the Flood, just like it will not be destroyed by fire at the Second Coming?

You cannot have one destroying it differently just because it makes your eschatology sound better. Either it was destroyed or it was not destroyed. Since Peter claimed it was destroyed the same way in both events, then the new earth happened after both events. Sin is a human condition. The effects of Adam's punishment of the earth was death and decay, not sin. Sin was the new state of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The continual state of disobedience to God. Only submitting by faith to the Holy Spirit allows us obedience to God.

Sin, death, and decay will not stop until Daniel's 70 weeks are over. The promises of Daniel 9:24 are a new creation, not just spiritual promises. Sin, death, and decay were not removed at the Cross. There was not a new earth after the Cross. Unless you are going to spiritualize the Flood of Noah, and claimed it did not physically happen, then your cannot spiritualize Daniel's 70 weeks ending, and that fire is a spiritual end at the Second Coming.

The only thing you seem to accept as physical is the Second Coming. That is only because you reject the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth without sin, death, and decay. Then you try to say there has been no sin, death, and decay symbolically since the Cross, when that is as much a physical reality promised as the spiritual reality you claim is in place.

You have no proof that all the sons of God rebelled against God, and a few of Adam's dead corruptible flesh offspring were found righteous prior to the Flood. Adam's punishment was not over. The Flood was to wipe out all the rebel sons of God. There was a new and different earth after the Flood. To say otherwise is just foolish.

Not only did most of the water above the firmament, heaven come down through heaven, so that water was once more on the earth, adding volumes of water changed earth from that point on, and the land that was one continent was broken up into continents. That did not take millions of years to happen. That happened in a few days. This earth is only 7,000 years old. Evolution is a virtual reality perception using Satan's math and science/knowledge that was already at work in Paul's day.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The path of science that led to evolution started by Satan before the first century. Satan was already at work destroying the writings of Moses in the hearts and minds of the Greeks and Romans with their mythology and science/knowledge.

Why do you always misrepresent and twist what I say? Stop putting words in my mouth. If you are not sure what I am saying, ask me to clarify rather than jump to silly conclusions.

 

[jeffweeder]

True. In the first part at His second appearing, He will only destroy them troubling the saints for years before.

At the last resurrection of the rest of the dead, all them not found in the book of life will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

That is not what Paul said will happen on the day the Lord appears to glorify us.
Your interpretation of Revelation grossly contradicts this.

 

[robert derrick]

That is usual mantra when you are cornered. You have no rebuttal to the truth. The sacred text forbids your error.

Whenever I hear people talking about the 'sacred text', it reminds me of Catholic priests that don't believe what's in it.

It's a kind of lip-service to Scripture. It's meant to sound reverential, but then you watch how they handle it, and there's definitely some normal respect lacking.

 

[robert derrick]

That is not what Paul said will happen on the day the Lord appears to glorify us.
Your interpretation of Revelation grossly contradicts this.

Until you come up with something new for me, or address what I write. We'll be done here.

Thanks for the fun so far.

 

[WPM]

Whenever I hear people talking about the 'sacred text', it reminds me of Catholic priests that don't believe what's in it.

It's a kind of lip-service to Scripture. It's meant to sound reverential, but then you watch how they handle it, and there's definitely some normal respect lacking.

You talk such nonsense.

You obviously have no rebuttal to the Book, the only basis of the Amil argument.

 

[jeffweeder]

Until you come up with something new for me, or address what I write. We'll be done here.

Thanks for the fun so far.

What did I miss in your post 131?
You should fully address what Paul wrote.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's a kind of lip-service to Scripture. It's meant to sound reverential, but then you watch how they handle it, and there's definitely some normal respect lacking.

My thoughts about Robert Derrick and his continued rejection of simple and clear biblical truth, presented again and again

 

[Timtofly]

Why do you always misrepresent and twist what I say? Stop putting words in my mouth. If you are not sure what I am saying, ask me to clarify rather than jump to silly conclusions.

Then clarify....

 

[Naomi25]

In Zech 14, there is are living waters going out of Jerusalem, to become two rivers flowing into two different seas, one of which is the Dead Sea to be healed in Ezek 47:

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Some teach that these living waters are the river of water of life on the new earth:

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

That pure river does not go out of Jerusalem, nor from Jerusalem, but only from the throne of God and the Lamb onto the street of the New Jerusalem.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

There is no sea on the new earth, especially not two seas, where one of them is 'recreated' dead, and in need of healing from living waters.

The river of water of life on the new earth, cannot possibly be the living waters during Christ's earthly reign, that go out of Jeruslaem and flow into two seas.

There is always one or two Scriptures, that plainly expose all false doctrine, so that those Scriptures are plainly contradicted while teaching them.

I've often wondered why there is no sea on the new earth, and for now we at least sea one reason: God will have no sea on the new earth, nor any waters flowing out of New Jerusalem, just to make sure no one can teach the lie, that He will not being ruling on this earth for a thousand years.

The living waters of Zech 14 and Ezek 47 during Christ's earthly reign, are but a foreshadowing of the river of water of life in the street of New Jerusalem on the new earth.

That has no sea, nor seas, and especially not any dead sea in need of healing.

With all due respect, I do wonder if you're missing not only what Amillennialists say about this text, but what the bible itself is saying.
The 'sea' is often used to portray, image wise, chaos, especially throughout the OT. If you do a search for terms like 'sea monster', 'Leviathan', 'Rahab', 'dragon'...all these terms are often used, and in conjunction with the sea, to represent chaos, rebellion against God.
Some examples:


Isaiah 27:1
[1] In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. (ESV)

Psalm 74:13–14
[13] You divided the sea by your might;
you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.
[14] You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. (ESV)

Psalm 89:9–10
[9] You rule the raging of the sea;
when its waves rise, you still them.
[10] You crushed Rahab like a carcass;
you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm. (ESV)

Isaiah 51:9–10
[9] Awake, awake, put on strength,
O arm of the LORD;
awake, as in days of old,
the generations of long ago.
Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces,
who pierced the dragon?
[10] Was it not you who dried up the sea,
the waters of the great deep,
who made the depths of the sea a way
for the redeemed to pass over? (ESV)

So...if we consider the imagery given to us from scripture itself...and I hope you concede that doing this is not "spiritualizing", it's being biblically faithful, then it's not far-fetched to suggest that Revelation is not telling us that there will be "no sea" in the new heavens and earth. It is actually telling us that there will be no rebellion and no chaos in the new order. Which, I hope, we should expect and long for.